Venezuelan Revolt on the Horizon?

[Mr.United_Nations]

I got a question, how are they going to get humanitarian aid in? Venezuela has few crossing points on paved roads.

Also Mike Pence says "now Is the time for action" what does this mean?

[Mr.United_Nations]

On 30/01/2019 at 5:57 PM, DarkHunter said:

The armor vehicles were also at Cucuta, Colombia has said the local government requested them to help deal with armed drug smugglers and traffickers but it seems like a lot of military grade equipment for such a task.

Also there is starting to be stuff on twitter, like videos and pictures, of the Venezuelan military starting to grab children.  The two main things I have heard as for why was conscripting anyone 13 years and older for military service and/or taking the children of military officers hostage to ensure loyalty but all of this is just rumors so far.

Who ELN, I know they are after them after the bombing and I know ELN operates along the border. Though apparently military build up been happening a few days, i wonder it's going to be an armed aid escort?

[RavenHawk]

On 1/29/2019 at 11:19 PM, Aquila King said:

For the sake of others reading, not for you...

Give it a rest.  It’s been a long week, putting out fires.  It is for me anyway, any chance I get, I will debunk your ideology.  The future of this country depends on everyone rejecting what the Founding Fathers rejected.  Americans need to be reintroduced to the thinking that brought the Founders to the place they were at.  When people become aware, they reject socialism and all its flavors.  It’s not your fault, you are just the product of not teaching civics and American history in school.

 

First of all I need to clarify: There are many variations of the term 'Socialism', and just as with all politics there are various Socialist views along the political spectrum. But the one thrown around most often now days is Democratic Socialism. I personally would consider myself more of a Social Democrat, which is slightly different. Although Bernie Sanders popularized the term 'Democratic Socialism' in the last democratic primary while running on what is essentially a Social Democratic platform. So there is some major confusion right now in this country as to what exactly a Democratic Socialist is (again, partly due to Bernie Sanders inaccurately calling himself a Democratic Socialist, but also in large part due to a deliberate disinformation campaign by conservatives and conservative media on the right). So for the sake of argument here, I'll just continue to do as Bernie Sanders did and refer to this specific ideology most of us in the American populist left movement as 'Democratic Socialism' even though technically the correct term would be 'Social Democracy'.

You don’t need to clarify, a rose by any other name…  Yes, there are many flavors of socialism (Marxism, Communism, Fascism, Nazism, Monarchy, Democracy, etc).  I’m sure that the academic differences are fascinating but are immaterial as what’s more important is how they are the same.  You can play the game of semantics but you won’t be able to confuse anybody here.  And what makes them the same is that in time, they take more and more freedoms from the people.  Eventually, these forms collapse or are overthrown.  Some can last generations but they all fail.

 

A Democratic Socialist is not a Marxist or Communist. A Democratic Socialist is still a Capitalist,

A Marxist and Communist are Capitalists too.  What matters is who controls the means of production.  The Socialist, Marxist, and Communists exerts more control over the means of production than does a Constitutional Republic.   The point being that only under a Republic is there more freedom for the individual to control his business.

 

 just one who seeks to restrain the natural self-destructive excess of unchecked Capitalism, and

Under Socialist control, corruption is more rampant.  It’s called crony Capitalism and it can occur under a Republic as well.  The only way to check that is via a free market, where the means of production is in the hands of the individual so that they can pursue their self-interests.  The free market is self-regulating and Capitalism is checked by the consumer.  The consumer drives the market.  Government also plays a part when say, monopolies have gotten too powerful and they need to be heavily regulated or broken up.  Monopolies are a poison to a free-market.  Business is free to make any product they want and in any quantity.  Under socialism, the state controls those things and controls the media that influences the consumer.  The state dictates what is made and how much.  The Founding Fathers never wanted government to have that kind of control.

 

channel government's access of our tax money into insuring that we provide an equal opportunity for everyone, regardless of economic upbringing and social status.

A minimal government that gets out of the lives of the people provides more opportunity.  We don’t need a government that takes our money *AND* tells us what to do with it.  Opportunity is created by the individual, not the government giving people things.  The only thing that government should provide are roads so you can get to work and then maybe fire and police to protect your home when you are at work.  We should aspire to those that are more successful than us, that minimalizes economic upbringing and social status and maximizes opportunity.  The government should not be showing special treatment to one group over another.  The government must refrain from creating special interest groups.  Socialism is based on special treatment, creating class division for the sake of power and control.

 

Democratic Socialists believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically

That’s too generic.  Unchecked democracy only serves the state.  Instead of being the object that government supports, the economy and society are slaved to support the state.  That’s too much control.  It’s the people as individuals that should run the economy and society and government needs to stay out of it.  Just as government is of the people, by the people, and for the people (and not the reverse), the economy and society are of the people, by the people, and for the people and not a function of the government.

 

to meet human needs, not simply to make profits for a greedy few.

Everybody is greedy.  To profit (Pursuit of Happiness) meets that human need.  It is up to the individual to meet their needs.

 

They believe the economy should serve the needs of the people, rather than people serving the economy, and the greedy desires of the wealthy elites. 

I think you just have wealth envy.  The economy does serve the needs of the people.  Each individual working for their own self-interest grows the economy, each adding to the wealth of the nation.  But each individual must pull their own weight.

 

They believe in middle-out demand-side economics, which means instead of giving massive tax breaks to the wealthiest of 1% and hope that somehow it'll 'trickle down' to the rest of America, instead we should make sure that the wealthiest individuals pay their fair share

Middle-out economics is just another way of enslaving the populace to serve the state.  the top 10% wage earners already pay about 80% of the taxes.  They are paying more than their fair share.  The bottom 50% pay only 2% of the tax burden.  That sounds like free-loaders.  Doesn’t very much sound like an economy that serves the needs of the people.  If we are going to raise revenue from income as opposed to tariffs, then every person needs to pay their fair share (say for argument 10%) and the government must operate on that.  A graduated tax system is fine just along as the brackets are not malapportioned.

 

in taxes and then pour their tax dollars into the middle and working class so that they have enough money to invest in and grow the free market economy;

Isn’t the middle class or any class capable of increasing their own wealth?  You don’t need to *pour* in stolen money.  The best way is to not steal it in the first place.  Create an environment that encourages the middle class to create their own wealth.  A government can do that by cutting taxes and regulations.  Heavy taxes and regulations cuts the legs out from under the middle and poor classes.  There is no incentive or innovation and without those, there is no creativity and the free market dies.

 

all while insuring those living in abject poverty have an equal opportunity to work their way out of it.

Somehow, when you say ‘equal opportunity’, it translates to equal outcome.  Did it ever dawn on you that those that live in abject poverty do so because of a lack of work ethic and inability to manage their money in the first place?  It’s not all from bad luck.  Then you compound the situation by giving them more money to squander.  That never solves any problems.

 

In short: Democratic Socialism is in favor of we the people democratically insuring an equal opportunity for everyone by holding the private seactor accountable for the welfare of all Americans.

Now that’s a good definition of enslavement and redistribution.  A free society has no right to steal from some to give to others and that is what socialism/democracy establishes.  I like the way you use “we the people”, now who is ‘we’ in this case?  The tyranny of the majority or the tyranny of a few self-proclaimed elite that know what’s better for the individual?

 

Now, feel free to dissect my post and give your usual nonsensical rambling rebuttal @RavenHawk.  I've laid out all I need to in response to your request. I've answered your question, and won't respond to any more. Because again, talking to you is about as productive as talking to wall. I only write this for anyone else who might be reading. Just letting you know.

There’s nothing to dissecting your argument.  Oh I disagree that it is as productive as talking to a wall.  That is just your perception because you have no counter to the condition I leave you in.  So you act like a child.  I’ve shown you what is wrong with Socialism just as the Founding Fathers had.  If you would peruse just a handful of Federalist Papers would make that abundantly clear.  Oh I know, some do not wish for people to read them, but if the Constitution is this *new* gadget, the Federalist Papers are surely its user manual.  Centinel said that Publius suffered an “imbecility of judgement” and that his “deranged brain” produced “myriads of unmeaning sentences”.  Does that sound familiar Mr. *nonsensical rambling rebuttal*?!

 

Socialism does not take into consideration human nature.  Socialism thinks that everybody is equal in ability.  That they are interchangeable cogs.  They are not.  Man is fallible.  Does he have the ability to rule himself with a maximum of freedom without anarchy?  The US Constitution ushered in Novus Ordo Seclorum, “a new order of the ages”.  This is not some new world order illuminati conspiracy but a new form a government based on the nature of man.  Socialism is a tyranny that cannot offer man maximum freedom because of the need of a few to control the masses to function in their altruistic utopia.  You are incapable of understanding.  That’s why I will always speak out.  It is troublesome to think that you sprung from Appalachia, but I guess one can find poison anywhere.

[Aquila King]

Watch me debunk @RavenHawk's entire above post with just two words:

Prove it.

[Golden Duck]

On 2/1/2019 at 5:41 AM, Inversion5 said:

Juan Guadio is the f-ing man. Rigged elections... I saw Maduro with all his military personal (no weapons that I noticed), trying to make a statement to the population (muahahha!)... idiot. Those military people have mothers, fathers, daughters, sons... family. Those family members need to "show them the light" that cheating only helps one person... the cheater. The good of the country relies on "colors" (variety and equality). Oppression does not fit such category and nothing can ever come out of dull grey or dull green in Guadio's case. So you see, you do not need military action as Donald Trump has suggested. He should of suggested a peaceful resolution first. The almighty Trump Guadio hopefully has their national treasures/financial reservoir secured by peaceful convincing means (e.g., a thriving happy population brings prosperity and generosity at times of need to those in need - people/families that help Guadio will not be left behind).

Why is Guaido 'The Man'? 

His party 'Voluntad Popular' (VP) prophesied the elections will be rigged.  VP subsequently boycotted the elections, lest their running legitimises them.

VP called for all opposition to boycott the election; and, subsequently ostracised Henri Falcon for running against Maduro, lest he legitimises the election.

Maduro invited the independent umpire, the Electoral Assistance Division or the UN, to monitor the election.  The VP asked the UN not to send observers, lest they legitimise the election.

There was a turnout of only 46 per cent - a historically low figure coinciding with the VP calls for a boycott.  Maduro received support that equates to 31 per cent of eligible voters.

So VP stands to benefit from the election process they themselves bastardised.

What would be the reaction if the US Democrats tried the same thing?

This is a murky story.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Golden Duck

[DarkHunter]

Seems a few hours ago a Venezuelan airforce general has switched sides to backing Guaido, also this general is in the airforce high command and is asking other members of the military to break from Maduro and start supporting Guaido.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/world/top-venezuela-general-rejects-maduros-legitimacy-throws-support-behind-interim-president.amp

[+and-then]

On 1/30/2019 at 1:18 PM, RoofGardener said:

Hmm.... Venezuala has a pretty good army and air force (and even a navy). Columbia wouldn't be able to make THAT much of an impact. Even Brazil would struggle somewhat. 

If it comes to a conflict, the U.S. Air Force and a MEU (Marine Expeditionary Unit) could eat Venezuela in a couple of weeks.  Probably much less.  It won't come to that if Maduro is convinced that he will be personally targeted unless he steps down.  The Venezuelans need to sort their issues without outside interference but it's difficult to do when there is a government in place that is dictatorial.  Chavez was popularly elected because the people listened to the siren song of free stuff.  Now they've had a chance to see just how "free" it is.  If it weren't for Russia and Iran trying to create a military beachhead there, I'd say let them wallow in their suffering.  Pain is the best teacher of all.  As it is, we need to work with their resistance and bring Maduro down, ASAP.

[+and-then]

On 1/30/2019 at 5:07 AM, Mr.United_Nations said:

I don't Maduro was being greedy, spent money he didn't have on programs that needed heavy investment. That's the problem with soclisim it tries to do good for the people but does not now the consequences of overspending. So that's why they had to borrow money from other nations. Capitalist nation's get money from corporations, big investors and taxes.

The problem with Socialism seems to be that even when the adherents/proponents are genuinely interested in doing good for the people they still cannot control the basic instinct of corruption of those at the top echelons of leadership.  Power corrupts.  I'd rather live in poverty than to live in fear of my government's decrees.  The Left in the U.S. want to control every aspect of the lives of the people - for their "own good".  %*^$&$  THEM!  

[RoofGardener]

16 minutes ago, and then said:

If it comes to a conflict, the U.S. Air Force and a MEU (Marine Expeditionary Unit) could eat Venezuela in a couple of weeks.....

Didn't they say that about Vietnam ? 

[Mr.United_Nations]

Apparently a USAF c-17 has left Florida and went around Cuba heading south east. And apparently there are US troops in Colombia near the border (could be false news)

[Mr.United_Nations]

Just now, RoofGardener said:

Didn't they say that about Vietnam ? 

Was North Vietnese aircraft a threat though?

[RoofGardener]

11 minutes ago, Mr.United_Nations said:

Was North Vietnese aircraft a threat though?

I don't think so. But so what ? In the end, North Korea defeated the USA, despite a massive inferiority in aircraft, ships, armour, artillary and .. well... almost everything.

[+and-then]

1 minute ago, RoofGardener said:

Didn't they say that about Vietnam ? 

I don't recall anyone believing it would be so easy.  I don't believe Russia or Iran can afford to prop up such an unpopular regime.  The logistics tail would be very long and expensive.  VVP and the Mullahs are just trying to tweak our nose.  The people in Venezuela will shank Maduro at the earliest possible opportunity.  There is no need or justification to send in and maintain a force of occupation there.  The absolute worst that would be needed would be to eradicate Venezuela's airforce, bottle up their navy and play psy ops games with the population and Maduro is history.  If they choose another dictator then simply make it clear that America will not allow a threat from them to mature.  China, Russia and Iran want to have bases in this hemisphere to cause disruptions and unnecessary strains on our military budgets.  We could simply step back, allow Maduro and his pals a free reign but establish a strong fleet presence in the Black sea off Ukraine and Crimea, I guess.  Tit for tat.  The world is getting more dangerous by the day and the idiots in power here in the U.S. are solely focused on taking down a duly elected president, regardless the cost.  A single mishap in the Sea of Azov or the Black sea where U.S. lives are lost due to Russian aggression could spin this world into a level of destruction that we can't even imagine.  And it would happen despite our president's desire to make Russia a partner to the extent possible.  Insanity.  

[RoofGardener]

23 minutes ago, and then said:

I don't recall anyone believing it would be so easy.  I don't believe Russia or Iran can afford to prop up such an unpopular regime.  The logistics tail would be very long and expensive.  VVP and the Mullahs are just trying to tweak our nose.  The people in Venezuela will shank Maduro at the earliest possible opportunity.  There is no need or justification to send in and maintain a force of occupation there.  The absolute worst that would be needed would be to eradicate Venezuela's airforce, bottle up their navy and play psy ops games with the population and Maduro is history.  If they choose another dictator then simply make it clear that America will not allow a threat from them to mature.  China, Russia and Iran want to have bases in this hemisphere to cause disruptions and unnecessary strains on our military budgets.  We could simply step back, allow Maduro and his pals a free reign but establish a strong fleet presence in the Black sea off Ukraine and Crimea, I guess.  Tit for tat.  The world is getting more dangerous by the day and the idiots in power here in the U.S. are solely focused on taking down a duly elected president, regardless the cost.  A single mishap in the Sea of Azov or the Black sea where U.S. lives are lost due to Russian aggression could spin this world into a level of destruction that we can't even imagine.  And it would happen despite our president's desire to make Russia a partner to the extent possible.  Insanity.  

And if the Brazillians and Columbians take some territory, and start abusing civilians ? 

There is the danger of turning Maduro into a national resistance hero ? 

Consider Bashir in Syria. He was written off.... but... he has survived the civil war, and is still in charge, despite being exceedingly unpopular.

Offering air support is one thing. But I think the USA had better stay out of the ground war !

Edited February 2, 2019 by RoofGardener

[RavenHawk]

22 hours ago, Aquila King said:

Watch me debunk @RavenHawk's entire above post with just two words:

Prove it.

That’s a joke.  But we’d all be waiting for a long time before you are able to debunk anything I post.  Besides, it’s not a matter of you debunking what I said; it’s a matter of you defending Socialism.  I’ve been very critical of it.  Let me reiterate: “You are incapable of understanding.”  I had made several points and you are not aware of them to even comment, let alone debunk them and you never will.  So you make a face and stick out your tongue.  I did ask you to keep it simple but you had to make it difficult for yourself.

 

But let me take another track here.  Tell me, what happens to a culture, society, and people when the government starts giving the populace things?  Like healthcare, education, living wage, etc.?  What happens when the government cannot sustain that?  I realize that these are complex concepts so as usual, I don’t expect much but even that will be telling.

[Aquila King]

1 hour ago, RavenHawk said:

That’s a joke.  But we’d all be waiting for a long time before you are able to debunk anything I post.  Besides, it’s not a matter of you debunking what I said; it’s a matter of you defending Socialism.  I’ve been very critical of it.  Let me reiterate: “You are incapable of understanding.”  I had made several points and you are not aware of them to even comment, let alone debunk them and you never will.  So you make a face and stick out your tongue.  I did ask you to keep it simple but you had to make it difficult for yourself. 

I don't have to debunk claims made without evidence. It's your job to back up your claims, not mine. Until then all it is are baseless assertions.

1 hour ago, RavenHawk said:

But let me take another track here.  Tell me, what happens to a culture, society, and people when the government starts giving the populace things?  Like healthcare, education, living wage, etc.?  What happens when the government cannot sustain that?  I realize that these are complex concepts so as usual, I don’t expect much but even that will be telling.

They flourish: 

Quote

Happy are the people of the Nordic nations — happier, in fact, than anyone else in the world. And the overall happiness of a country is almost identical to the happiness of its immigrants.

Those are the main conclusions of the World Happiness Report 2018, released Wednesday. Finland is the happiest country in the world, it found, followed by Norway, Denmark, Iceland, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Canada, New Zealand, Sweden and Australia. Though in a different order, this is the same top 10 as last year, when Norway was No. 1 and Finland was fifth.

...

Dr. Sachs noted that the happiest countries have very different political philosophies from the United States’. Most of the top 10 are social democracies, which “believe that what makes people happy is solid social support systems, good public services, and even paying a significant amount in taxes for that.”

This year’s report also focused heavily on how migration affects happiness. Most notably, it found that the happiness of a country’s immigrants is almost identical to that of its population at large — indicating, Dr. Helliwell said in an interview, that “people essentially adjust to the average happiness level of the country they’re moving to.”

“The closeness of the two rankings shows that the happiness of immigrants depends predominantly on the quality of life where they now live,” the report’s executive summary said. “Happiness can change, and does change, according to the quality of the society in which people live.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/14/world/europe/worlds-happiest-countries.html

And as for your suggestion of 'what if the government can't sustain that', prove that they can't. Because these nations have been this way for decades and haven't even come close to collapsing.

See, this ^ is what I mean by prove it. You're good at filibustering with empty assertions, but I've yet to see you ever back up a single thing that you say. Main reason is you can't.

[F3SS]

They cant sustain it because they eventually run out of other peoples money and if I find myself under socialist rule in this country i will only be there because immateur brats and dubious politicians have prevailed. You know what happens next? I quit producing for you. I don't mind contributing through sensible taxes but i will defy you and go under ground. I'll work under the table along with millions of others throwing a finger at your demands. Heck, i might even sit on my butt while you work for me. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by F3SS

[Aquila King]

30 minutes ago, F3SS said:

They cant sustain it because they eventually run out of other peoples money

Yeah, because other people definitely don't continue to replenish their money with a regular income.  We all just have a set amount that never gets bigger.

I mean I'm sorry, I know we're supposed to be all respectable to one another here and whatnot, but you've just got to be seriously stupid to actually make that point as if it were in any way legitimate. 

36 minutes ago, F3SS said:

and if I find myself under socialist rule in this country i will only be there because immateur brats and dubious politicians have prevailed. You know what happens next? I quit producing for you. I don't mind contributing through sensible taxes but i will defy you and go under ground. I'll work under the table along with millions of others throwing a finger at your demands. Heck, i might even sit on my butt while you work for me. 

Dude, quit being such a crybaby. I completely disagree with the overwhelming majority of where my tax dollars go towards, and you don't see me whining about it like that. 

I and other progressives just want our taxes to go towards something that actually benefits the American people suffering at the bottom. If you disagree then by all means, use the democratic process to try and keep things the way they are, or even make it worse. But all you're doing is whining like a little b****.

[skliss]

5 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

I completely disagree with the overwhelming majority of where my tax dollars go

What tax dollars?

6 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

you don't see me whining about it like that.

That's actually all you do....whine that you aren't getting enough of mine.

[F3SS]

8 minutes ago, skliss said:

What tax dollars?

That's actually all you do....whine that you aren't getting enough of mine.

And with the vernacular of an angry teenage boy losing a game of call of duty online.

[Aquila King]

5 minutes ago, skliss said:

What tax dollars?

The tax dollars going towards bailing out big banks whose business model is fraud, the tax dollars that fund the military industrial complex and endless wars overseas, the tax dollars that fund ICE and other unnecessary anti-immigration policies, etc. etc.

Again, the majority of things my taxes go towards I'm completely against.

9 minutes ago, skliss said:

That's actually all you do....whine that you aren't getting enough of mine.

The 'it' that I was referring to was all the things I listed above. I don't constantly whine about my tax dollars going towards these things I disagree with. If anything, I primarily focus on the things that don't have enough money going into them such as social security, education, and Medicare. 

You clearly weren't listening to what I was saying.

[skliss]

1 hour ago, Aquila King said:

The tax dollars going towards bailing out big banks whose business model is fraud, the tax dollars that fund the military industrial complex and endless wars overseas, the tax dollars that fund ICE and other unnecessary anti-immigration policies, etc. etc.

Again, the majority of things my taxes go towards I'm completely against.

The 'it' that I was referring to was all the things I listed above. I don't constantly whine about my tax dollars going towards these things I disagree with. If anything, I primarily focus on the things that don't have enough money going into them such as social security, education, and Medicare. 

You clearly weren't listening to what I was saying.

And you didn't listen to mine...what tax dollars are you paying?

What you whine about is that you (et al) aren't getting enough of the tax dollars the rest of us pay.

[Aquila King]

26 minutes ago, skliss said:

And you didn't listen to mine...what tax dollars are you paying?

What you whine about is that you (et al) aren't getting enough of the tax dollars the rest of us pay.

Dude, all I want is for every kid to get a decent education no matter what economic situation they were born into, I want people who're sick to get treated and not go bankrupt, I want those who work full time to get paid enough money to survive, and I want people to not starve or freeze from being homeless.

If you just want to say F 'em and walk on then whatever man. Just know that it's damn near impossible for you to spin it in some morally justifiable way on your part. I for one am more than happy to pay a portion of my taxes to meet those ends, but ultimately it's not my or your taxes who'd be going towards those things. It'd be the taxes of the billionaires who profit from with holding funding to these desperately needed areas.

[aztek]

you call a female dude?? you are special kind of stupid.  oh sorry i forgot you are a liberal, that explains everything

Edited February 3, 2019 by aztek

[Sir Smoke aLot]

We have sort of 2nd round of fight which started back in 2002, just that now it's more open in terms of players revealing themselves to the public.

Not elected, was never running for the president but... Guaido claim that he is new president. I strongly oppose such games especially after ''Arab spring'' which turned into chaos and genocide even tho it was played much better than what we see now in Venezuela.

With all the pressure in the USA politics about anti BDS law and support for Israel i think that one of Maduro's largest sins was that he also stand with Palestine, as Chavez did. Bolivar wasn't usual leader and war profiteer, he stood for liberty and many people recognize those values within movement which supports Maduro.

Not sure but if new constitution was prepared by Guaido and his supporters i suppose it contains part in which Chavez reforms are to be nullified.