Venezuelan Revolt on the Horizon?

[+joc]

12 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Right here.  Your claim that they were hypocrites for not doing something that they could not possibly do.

What couldn't they do?  They couldn't go on the Media TV outlets on the Sunday Morning shows and say how they thought Obama was wrong to give all the billions he did to Iran?  Sure they could have.  They didn't though.  Not a peep.  Lock Step Support.  But when a Republican seeks to help a strong ally in the middle east...total outrage.  You don't see the hypocrisy in that? Really?

[Gromdor]

2 minutes ago, joc said:

What couldn't they do?  They couldn't go on the Media TV outlets on the Sunday Morning shows and say how they thought Obama was wrong to give all the billions he did to Iran?  Sure they could have.  They didn't though.  Not a peep.  Lock Step Support.  But when a Republican seeks to help a strong ally in the middle east...total outrage.  You don't see the hypocrisy in that? Really?

Come to think of it, another lie would be saying that you never listen to CNN and then accusing someone of being their stooge and using their talking points.  How would you know know what their talking points are if you don't listen to them?  One or the other would have to be false.  

As for the Iran thing, you are deflecting.  You are changing your reasoning for them being hypocrites from not leading an investigative panel like they are doing for Trump to them not being on TV. (which you you wouldn't know anyways because it would be on the media you don't watch.)  Your original statement was false and you can't really redefine it after the fact.

[+joc]

Just now, Gromdor said:

Come to think of it, another lie would be saying that you never listen to CNN and then accusing someone of being their stooge and using their talking points.  How would you know know what their talking points are if you don't listen to them?  One or the other would have to be false.  

As for the Iran thing, you are deflecting.  You are changing your reasoning for them being hypocrites from not leading an investigative panel like they are doing for Trump to them not being on TV. (which you you wouldn't know anyways because it would be on the media you don't watch.)  Your original statement was false and you can't really redefine it after the fact.

CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, The Washington Post, The New York Times....it's all Associated Press.  They all have the same reports, the same take on a story, the same talking points, the same word structures....and...they are all Left and biased against Trump.  I'm not deflecting anything.  You choose to be part of the Left...that's your business.  I'm just explaining to you how you are being dragged along like a donkey with a carrot in front of his face on a stick by the Media.

[Gromdor]

1 minute ago, joc said:

CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, The Washington Post, The New York Times....it's all Associated Press.  They all have the same reports, the same take on a story, the same talking points, the same word structures....and...they are all Left and biased against Trump.  I'm not deflecting anything.  You choose to be part of the Left...that's your business.  I'm just explaining to you how you are being dragged along like a donkey with a carrot in front of his face on a stick by the Media.

Still not seeing how pointing out that Democrats can't create and lead panels when they don't control congress has anything to do with the media.  You seem to be the only one bringing it in and you are changing your claims to do it.

[+joc]

9 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Still not seeing how pointing out that Democrats can't create and lead panels when they don't control congress has anything to do with the media.  You seem to be the only one bringing it in and you are changing your claims to do it.

The Party in power has the power.  What is new or enlightening about that?  The difference is...the Media is for all practical purposes, a branch of the Democrat Party.  They are completely biased and they have a leftist agenda.  If anything they are covering goes against the narrative of the day...they either don't report it, or slander it.  

[Gromdor]

2 minutes ago, joc said:

The Party in power has the power.  What is new or enlightening about that?  The difference is...the Media is for all practical purposes, a branch of the Democrat Party.  They are completely biased and they have a leftist agenda.  If anything they are covering goes against the narrative of the day...they either don't report it, or slander it.  

So you are trying to say that what you post is the narrative of the day or something?  Wouldn't it behoove you to be extra careful to be factually correct?

[Phaeton80]

12 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

In theory the deal is we're "crowning" him with the promise that fair elections will be held immediately. At least there is a theoretical chance for change for the Venezuelan people that way.

 

Im curious, what exactly has Maduro done to warrant supporting this most recent attempt at illegal hijack of constitutional power?

Here we have a nation that has been manipulated by (Western) foreign powers since its inception, where the former democratically elected HoS was illegally and agressively removed from power in 2002 by thesame elements active against Maduro now, after Chavez moved to balance wealth distribution, nationalise oil production.. however difficult a road it is, the intentions were good imho. Corporatist interests were impacted negatively by the Bolivar revolution, this is the main reason these two heads of state have generated so much negative attention in the West, nothing else.

The economy is actively being stressed 'to scream' from the outside, international (monetary) deposits in the billions have been frozen, suffocating economic sanctions effectuated.. OPEC being massaged to lower oil prices.. all considerable factors contributing to the present dire state of affairs. USAID shipments are barred to the outcry of the public, completely ignoring the aformentioned tactics employed against this nation, as well as the clearcut fact USAID is highly politicized, all but an objective NGO. Billions are being stolen from this country, and when Maduro refuses to accept some breadcrumbs potentially and plausibly laced with all sorts of opposition aid in any form imaginable, he is marked as a tirant.

Same sh*, different story. It absolutely amazes the h*ll out of me there are actually still people who believe the US is in it for the wellbeing of the Venezuelan People (because thats the only reason for one to support this coup). Maduro is certainly no hero, he has made a lot of mistakes, bad decisions.. I personally dislike him, especially compared to Chavez, but if one is even remotely aware of the history and the specific present situation; he's hardly the evil tirant the media is projecting him as.. certainly not legitimizing massive support of any illegal coup. And if it is a legitimization; do thesame with Yemen, SA, UAE, Israel, Colombia, etc etc. It simply is hypocritical, politicized BS. Its bad enough Americans have been duped to elect one of the most agressive corporatists while actually believing thesame would drain any swamp, it would be kinda nice if such stupidity would not be forced upon the Venezuelans as well.

Heres an idea; Get your gddmn hands off of foreign sovereign nations for a change, try and focus on your own problems why not.

 

*Disclaimer: I am no more a Maduro fan than I am a Putin fan, but I can recognize game when I see it. And you best be damn sure a malicious political game / strategy - in favor of the USA and Western corporations, and in stark disfavor to the brunt of the Venezuelan People (which are poor colored people, not the elitist white minority lead by corporatist Guaido) - is being played here.. AGAIN.*

Edited February 23, 2019 by Phaeton80

[+joc]

2 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

So you are trying to say that what you post is the narrative of the day or something?  Wouldn't it behoove you to be extra careful to be factually correct?

No...the Media has the narrative.  Not me.  It behooves us all to be factually correct.  My point is that you continue using the biased leftist media as a source...when all you really end up doing is supporting their narrative.  You and many others believe that the media is telling the truth.  So whatever they report they have fact checked and it's all up and up and true.  I am saying that the Media has a leftist agenda.  Anything that deters from that agenda will either not be reported, ignored in fact, or slanted into something that fits their narrative.  And the 'narrative' is that the thinking on the Left is normal, correct, true, and that the Conservatives, the Republicans, the Capitalists, are the true evil in the world.  The 'narrative' speaks of Global Warming being caused by Mankind...speaks of White Privilege...of the evils of Capitalism,  of the racist, homophobic, White conservatives who don't care about anyone else....and on and on and on.  

 

[Gromdor]

2 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

 

Im curious, what exactly has Maduro done to warrant supporting this most recent attempt at illegal hijack of constitutional power?

Here we have a nation that has been manipulated by (Western) foreign powers since its inception, where the former democratically elected HoS was illegally and agressively removed from power in 2002 by thesame elements active against Maduro now, after Chavez moved to balance wealth distribution, nationalise oil production.. however difficult a road it is, the intentions were good imho. Corporatist interests were impacted negatively by the Bolivar revolution, this is the main reason these two heads of state have generated so much negative attention in the West, nothing else.

The economy is actively being stressed 'to scream' from the outside, international (monetary) deposits in the billions have been frozen, suffocating economic sanctions effectuated.. OPEC being massaged to lower oil prices.. all considerable factors contributing to the present dire state of affairs. USAID shipments are barred to the outcry of the public, completely ignoring the aformentioned tactics employed against this nation, as well as the clearcut fact USAID is highly politicized, all but an objective NGO. Billions are being stolen from this country, and when Maduro refuses to accept some breadcrumbs potentially and plausibly laced with all sorts of opposition aid in any form imaginable, he is marked as a tirant.

Same sh*, different story. It absolutely amazes the h*ll out of me there are actually still people who believe the US is in it for the wellbeing of the Venezuelan People (because thats the only reason for one to support this coup). Maduro is certainly no hero, he has made a lot of mistakes, bad decisions.. I personally dislike him, especially compared to Chavez, but if one is even remotely aware of the history and the specific present situation; he's hardly the evil tirant the media is projecting him as.. certainly not legitimizing massive support of any illegal coup. And if it is legitimization, do thesame with Yemen, SA, UAE, Israel, Colombia, etc etc. It simply is hypocritical, politicized BS. Its bad enough Americans have been duped to elect one of the most agressive corporatists while actually believing thesame would drain any swamp, it would be kinda nice if such stupidity would not be forced upon the Venezuelans as well.

Heres an idea; Get your gddmn hands off of foreign sovereign nations for a change, try and focus on your own problems why not.

 

*Disclaimer: I am no more a Maduro fan than I am a Putin fan, but I can recognize game when I see it. And you best be damn sure a malicious political game / strategy - in favor of the USA and Western corporations, and in stark disfavor to the brunt of the Venezuelan People (which are poor colored people, not the elitist white minority lead by corporatist Guaido) - is being played here.. AGAIN.*

This just happened to be a moment of weakness for everyone to strike.

 

 

[+joc]

6 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

Heres an idea; Get your gddmn hands off of foreign sovereign nations for a change, try and focus on your own problems why not.

America did not play a role in the downfall of Venezuela.  Hugo Chavez ....decided to make Venezuela a Socialist country.  Yeah, America does care about the people of Venezuela.  

[Gromdor]

1 minute ago, joc said:

No...the Media has the narrative.  Not me.  It behooves us all to be factually correct.  My point is that you continue using the biased leftist media as a source...when all you really end up doing is supporting their narrative.  You and many others believe that the media is telling the truth.  So whatever they report they have fact checked and it's all up and up and true.  I am saying that the Media has a leftist agenda.  Anything that deters from that agenda will either not be reported, ignored in fact, or slanted into something that fits their narrative.  And the 'narrative' is that the thinking on the Left is normal, correct, true, and that the Conservatives, the Republicans, the Capitalists, are the true evil in the world.  The 'narrative' speaks of Global Warming being caused by Mankind...speaks of White Privilege...of the evils of Capitalism,  of the racist, homophobic, White conservatives who don't care about anyone else....and on and on and on.  

 

Man, I live in a college campus town and can talk to actual scientists about Global Warming.  I've personally seen examples of "white privilege" and racism at work and had to deal with the fallout when it got found out and went to court.  Capitalism isn't inherently evil.  But drug dealers and scammers that rip off the elderly around here are most definitely capitalists of the worst kind and need to be dealt with.  Witnessing the things Trump did, like what he did to acquire Mar De Lago puts him in that same category in my eyes. 

 

[+joc]

2 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Man, I live in a college campus town and can talk to actual scientists about Global Warming.  I've personally seen examples of "white privilege" and racism at work and had to deal with the fallout when it got found out and went to court.  Capitalism isn't inherently evil.  But drug dealers and scammers that rip off the elderly around here are most definitely capitalists of the worst kind and need to be dealt with.  Witnessing the things Trump did, like what he did to acquire Mar De Lago puts him in that same category in my eyes. 

 

Drug dealers are not capitalists...they are criminals.  What did Trump do exactly that puts him in that category?

[Gromdor]

1 minute ago, joc said:

Drug dealers are not capitalists...they are criminals.  What did Trump do exactly that puts him in that category?

Sell me your house?  No?  Okay, I bought the lot next to your house and am going to devalue your property for refusing me.  You can now sell it to me for 1/3 it's worth or just go broke. 

[Eldorado]

Some news...

Venezuelan forces stationed along the country's borders hurled tear gas at Venezuela's opposition and activists on Saturday to block their efforts to bring in food and medicine. Authorities are calling the aid a veiled US-backed invasion.

https://www.france24.com/en/20190223-venezuelan-opposition-border-troops-clash-aid-guaido-maduro-colombia

[+joc]

48 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Sell me your house?  No?  Okay, I bought the lot next to your house and am going to devalue your property for refusing me.  You can now sell it to me for 1/3 it's worth or just go broke. 

Here is the actual story:

 Marjorie Merriweather Post, heiress to the Post Cereals business, who died in 1973, willed the 17-acre  estate to the United States government as a Winter White House for presidents and visiting foreign dignitaries.

The federal government soon realized the immense cost of maintenance, and the difficulty maintaining security for diplomats, and returned it to the Post Foundation in 1981. 

It was then listed for sale for $20 million. Dina Merrill and Post's two other daughters did not maintain the property in the meanwhile, expecting to sell it. But there was so little interest, the city approved its demolition to build smaller homes.

Donald Trump learned about the estate after unsuccessfully trying to purchase and combine two apartments in Palm Beach for his family. According to Trump, he offered the Post family $15 million for it, but they rejected it. Trump purchased the land between Mar-a-Lago and the ocean from Jack C. Massey, the former owner of KFC, for $2 million, stating he intended to build a home that would block Mar-a-Lago's beach view. The threat caused interest in the property to decline, and Trump ended up getting the property for $7 million in 1985

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So...everything you said is crap Gromdor.  The city was going to demolish Mar-a-Lago...Trump offered the Post's 15 million.  They refused.  How does what he did thereafter make him any kind of criminal?  It was a National Landmark.  He saved it.  Tough titty said the kitty but the milk is good.

[DarkHunter]

As for what's going on in Venezuela GNB forces near Santa Elena de Uairen have started shooting into the pro-Guaido protesters, multiple injured and one killed after being shot in the head.

Maduro has closes the airspace over Venezuela and it seems a few hours ago the local native tribe near Brazil overran an airport guarded by the GNB.

Should mention the local tribe is also currently holding a Venezuelan general then managed to detain yesterday.

Edited February 23, 2019 by DarkHunter

[Gromdor]

10 minutes ago, joc said:

Here is the actual story:

 Marjorie Merriweather Post, heiress to the Post Cereals business, who died in 1973, willed the 17-acre  estate to the United States government as a Winter White House for presidents and visiting foreign dignitaries.

The federal government soon realized the immense cost of maintenance, and the difficulty maintaining security for diplomats, and returned it to the Post Foundation in 1981. 

It was then listed for sale for $20 million. Dina Merrill and Post's two other daughters did not maintain the property in the meanwhile, expecting to sell it. But there was so little interest, the city approved its demolition to build smaller homes.

Donald Trump learned about the estate after unsuccessfully trying to purchase and combine two apartments in Palm Beach for his family. According to Trump, he offered the Post family $15 million for it, but they rejected it. Trump purchased the land between Mar-a-Lago and the ocean from Jack C. Massey, the former owner of KFC, for $2 million, stating he intended to build a home that would block Mar-a-Lago's beach view. The threat caused interest in the property to decline, and Trump ended up getting the property for $7 million in 1985

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So...everything you said is crap Gromdor.  The city was going to demolish Mar-a-Lago...Trump offered the Post's 15 million.  They refused.  How does what he did thereafter make him any kind of criminal?  It was a National Landmark.  He saved it.  Tough titty said the kitty but the milk is good.

Donald Trump learned about the estate after unsuccessfully trying to purchase and combine two apartments in Palm Beach for his family. According to Trump, he offered the Post family $15 million for it, but they rejected it. Trump purchased the land between Mar-a-Lago and the ocean from Jack C. Massey, the former owner of KFC, for $2 million, stating he intended to build a home that would block Mar-a-Lago's beach view. The threat caused interest in the property to decline, and Trump ended up getting the property for $7 million in 1985

You even posted the truth under your bolded section........

[+joc]

1 minute ago, Gromdor said:

Donald Trump learned about the estate after unsuccessfully trying to purchase and combine two apartments in Palm Beach for his family. According to Trump, he offered the Post family $15 million for it, but they rejected it. Trump purchased the land between Mar-a-Lago and the ocean from Jack C. Massey, the former owner of KFC, for $2 million, stating he intended to build a home that would block Mar-a-Lago's beach view. The threat caused interest in the property to decline, and Trump ended up getting the property for $7 million in 1985

You even posted the truth under your bolded section........

How is that criminal?  It isn't.  You said...

1 hour ago, Gromdor said:

But drug dealers and scammers that rip off the elderly around here are most definitely capitalists of the worst kind and need to be dealt with.  Witnessing the things Trump did, like what he did to acquire Mar De Lago puts him in that same category in my eyes. 

How is anything he did like selling drugs or ripping off the elderly?  Mar De Lago was going to be torn down and another investment company was going to score big by building a neighborhood in its place.  The Post's were trying to rip off Trump and everyone else.  They didn't want to put any money into Mar De Lago because they thought they could just sell it as is.  The truth is Trump played hardball with the other investment brokers...not with the Post's.  They still got 7 mill out of the deal.  And Trump got what he wanted. He won!  And he preserved a National Landmark as well.  He won...that's what you don't like I think.

 

[Gromdor]

19 minutes ago, joc said:

How is that criminal?  It isn't.  You said...

How is anything he did like selling drugs or ripping off the elderly?  Mar De Lago was going to be torn down and another investment company was going to score big by building a neighborhood in its place.  The Post's were trying to rip off Trump and everyone else.  They didn't want to put any money into Mar De Lago because they thought they could just sell it as is.  The truth is Trump played hardball with the other investment brokers...not with the Post's.  They still got 7 mill out of the deal.  And Trump got what he wanted. He won!  And he preserved a National Landmark as well.  He won...that's what you don't like I think.

 

1) It was indeed going to be torn down and made into more profitable residential neighborhoods.  It was theirs to do so.

 

2) The Post's weren't trying to rip Donald off.  The property was worth four times what he bought it for.  (5 million for the real estate, 3 million for the furniture)

 

3) Trump deliberately bought a property next to it with the publicly stated intent to devalue it and force the Posts to lose even more money because they could barely pay the taxes on it as it was.

Trump put in a first offer for $15 million in 1982 after vacationing in Palm Beach, he recalled in his book Trump: The Art of the Deal. When the offer was turned down, Trump bought an oceanside property in front of Mar-a-Lago and threatened to build a monstrosity to block the mansion’s view, as he told The Washington Post in 2015. 

“That was my first wall,” he said in the interview. “That drove everybody nuts. They couldn’t sell the big house because I owned the beach, so the price kept going down and down.”

 

4) The Post daughters were old ladies at the time of the sale. He ripped them off.  That's the definition of ripping off the elderly.  Here's what Trump said of Dina Merril at the time: Trump would later write of Dina Merrill that she was “Mrs. Post’s arrogant and aloof daughter, who was born with her mother’s beauty but not her brains.” Confronted with Trump’s assessment, Merrill told a reporter, “How lovely. He’s a charming man, isn’t he?”

 

[+joc]

3 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

1) It was indeed going to be torn down and made into more profitable residential neighborhoods.  It was theirs to do so.

 

2) The Post's weren't trying to rip Donald off.  The property was worth four times what he bought it for.  (5 million for the real estate, 3 million for the furniture)

 

3) Trump deliberately bought a property next to it with the publicly stated intent to devalue it and force the Posts to lose even more money because they could barely pay the taxes on it as it was.

Trump put in a first offer for $15 million in 1982 after vacationing in Palm Beach, he recalled in his book Trump: The Art of the Deal. When the offer was turned down, Trump bought an oceanside property in front of Mar-a-Lago and threatened to build a monstrosity to block the mansion’s view, as he told The Washington Post in 2015. 

“That was my first wall,” he said in the interview. “That drove everybody nuts. They couldn’t sell the big house because I owned the beach, so the price kept going down and down.”

 

4) The Post daughters were old ladies at the time of the sale. He ripped them off.  That's the definition of ripping off the elderly.  Here's what Trump said of Dina Merril at the time: Trump would later write of Dina Merrill that she was “Mrs. Post’s arrogant and aloof daughter, who was born with her mother’s beauty but not her brains.” Confronted with Trump’s assessment, Merrill told a reporter, “How lovely. He’s a charming man, isn’t he?”

 

The fact is...they asked 20 mil for it.  No one bought.  Trump offered 15...they said no.  Fine and Dandy...good luck selling it then when I build a mansion on my newly acquired beach property which will totally block ocean view.

Sounds like regular business to me.   Only a snowflake would think that was inappropriate.  It's how things are done in the real world of high finance Gromdor.  You play hardball and you win...or you get eaten alive.  If the Post's got eaten alive it was because they were greedy or stupid.

[Gromdor]

1 minute ago, joc said:

The fact is...they asked 20 mil for it.  No one bought.  Trump offered 15...they said no.  Fine and Dandy...good luck selling it then when I build a mansion on my newly acquired beach property which will totally block ocean view.

Sounds like regular business to me.   Only a snowflake would think that was inappropriate.  It's how things are done in the real world of high finance Gromdor.  You play hardball and you win...or you get eaten alive.  If the Post's got eaten alive it was because they were greedy or stupid.

See my version of capitalism is different from yours.  In my version capitalists create wealth.  In yours, they steal it from the poor and elderly.

[+joc]

3 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

See my version of capitalism is different from yours.  In my version capitalists create wealth.  In yours, they steal it from the poor and elderly.

Lol...I think you have that bass akwards!  

[Farmer77]

8 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

 

Im curious, what exactly has Maduro done to warrant supporting this most recent attempt at illegal hijack of constitutional power?

Here we have a nation that has been manipulated by (Western) foreign powers since its inception, where the former democratically elected HoS was illegally and agressively removed from power in 2002 by thesame elements active against Maduro now, after Chavez moved to balance wealth distribution, nationalise oil production.. however difficult a road it is, the intentions were good imho. Corporatist interests were impacted negatively by the Bolivar revolution, this is the main reason these two heads of state have generated so much negative attention in the West, nothing else.

The economy is actively being stressed 'to scream' from the outside, international (monetary) deposits in the billions have been frozen, suffocating economic sanctions effectuated.. OPEC being massaged to lower oil prices.. all considerable factors contributing to the present dire state of affairs. USAID shipments are barred to the outcry of the public, completely ignoring the aformentioned tactics employed against this nation, as well as the clearcut fact USAID is highly politicized, all but an objective NGO. Billions are being stolen from this country, and when Maduro refuses to accept some breadcrumbs potentially and plausibly laced with all sorts of opposition aid in any form imaginable, he is marked as a tirant.

Same sh*, different story. It absolutely amazes the h*ll out of me there are actually still people who believe the US is in it for the wellbeing of the Venezuelan People (because thats the only reason for one to support this coup). Maduro is certainly no hero, he has made a lot of mistakes, bad decisions.. I personally dislike him, especially compared to Chavez, but if one is even remotely aware of the history and the specific present situation; he's hardly the evil tirant the media is projecting him as.. certainly not legitimizing massive support of any illegal coup. And if it is a legitimization; do thesame with Yemen, SA, UAE, Israel, Colombia, etc etc. It simply is hypocritical, politicized BS. Its bad enough Americans have been duped to elect one of the most agressive corporatists while actually believing thesame would drain any swamp, it would be kinda nice if such stupidity would not be forced upon the Venezuelans as well.

Heres an idea; Get your gddmn hands off of foreign sovereign nations for a change, try and focus on your own problems why not.

 

*Disclaimer: I am no more a Maduro fan than I am a Putin fan, but I can recognize game when I see it. And you best be damn sure a malicious political game / strategy - in favor of the USA and Western corporations, and in stark disfavor to the brunt of the Venezuelan People (which are poor colored people, not the elitist white minority lead by corporatist Guaido) - is being played here.. AGAIN.*

I actually agree with you on almost all of that.

Regardless of the situation's genesis however things are bad for the folks that live there and getting worse daily. Its a messed up situation, human suffering doesnt care about how its paradigm was formed though only how its going to change.

 

 

[acidhead]

This is Crazy Bernie/AOC plan in real time

Educational historical

[Farmer77]

8 minutes ago, acidhead said:

This is Crazy Bernie/AOC plan in real time

Educational historical

Yeah the foxnewsians are working really hard to make that correlation in the voters minds.