Poltergeists and Mysterious Psychic Powers

[macqdor]

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It sounds like the desired point of this thread is only agreement and cheering on of the subject. It certainly isn't a thread about the validity of whether or not there is any real evidence of poltergeist

Actually thats not true. You dont have to believe in the phenomena to respond to this thread.  But you shouldn't have to be calling people fakers, and hoaxers either.  Which is another term for calling someone a liar.   We're talking about the paranormal. We're talking about poltergeist.  The most elusive/evading phenomena within the paranormal realm.

Participation doesn't require believably.   Just civility.   Character assassination?   That tactics been used over and over.   I'm not surprised that its being used now.    Its sort of a sad expectation.

 

You want to talk ask questions?  Ask away?

 

You want to discuss poltergeist +/-.  Do that to.   There are multiple theories as to what could be behind this.   I have my theories based on experience (solid ground to stand on IMO)   and you have yours.

@esoteric_toad

Present them.

No one's going to walk away convincing the other person that they're wrong.   Thats not the point.

The point for me is thinking out loud.

Sharing info which it seems a few skeptics here fear.

 

 

[esoteric_toad]

I'd give up being a skeptic in an instant if ever any evidence presented itself. Hasn't happened yet and while I still look for it seems it never will. I'll keep looking though but I'll not fall for claims and "evidence" that isn't vetted, can be easily faked or is simply pulled out of thin air without being examined with even rudimentary critical thinking. I may miss something real by seting the standards so high but when/if ever that happens I know I won't be blindly following nonsense.

Edited February 28, 2019 by esoteric_toad
Bad spelling and grammar

[macqdor]

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This whole Linder case seems to lack any credibility. The more I look into it certainly looks like a money making hoax.

I'm still waiting for that official clarification.

@stereologist

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A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."

 

[stereologist]

6 minutes ago, macqdor said:

I'm still waiting for that official clarification.

@stereologist

 

I have been waiting for evidence. 

The lack of evidence from the Linder case reinforces that it is a money making hoax.

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Burden of Proof

This fallacy originates from the Latin phrase "onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat"). The burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim, not on the person who denies (or questions) the claim. The fallacy of the Burden of Proof occurs when someone who is making a claim, puts the burden of proof on another party to disprove what they are claiming.

https://www.logicalfallacies.org/burden-of-proof.html

Edited February 28, 2019 by stereologist

[esoteric_toad]

2 minutes ago, macqdor said:

Actually thats not true. You dont have to believe in the phenomena to respond to this thread.  But you shouldn't have to be calling people fakers, and hoaxers either.  Which is another term for calling someone a liar.   We're talking about the paranormal. We're talking about poltergeist.  The most elusive/evading phenomena within the paranormal realm.

Participation doesn't require believably.   Just civility.   Character assassination?   That tactics been used over and over.   I'm not surprised that its being used now.    Its sort of a sad expectation.

 

You want to talk ask questions?  Ask away?

 

You want to discuss poltergeist +/-.  Do that to.   There are multiple theories as to what could be behind this.   I have my theories based on experience (solid ground to stand on IMO)   and you have yours.

@esoteric_toad

Present them.

No one's going to walk away convincing the other person that they're wrong.   Thats not the point.

The point for me is thinking out loud.

Sharing info which it seems a few skeptics here fear.

 

 

My philosophy on anything deemed paranormal is simple. 

If a claim is made and challenged then evidence should be presented. If the evidence can be possibly be explained by ANY normal means (without being overly ridiculous) then the evidence has little or no value. Stories and claims, while entertaining, hold little or no value. If something paranormal occurs to an individual and nothing of substance can be shown to back that experience then for real data collection, unbiased collection, scientific collection, it effectively means nothing. That is not discounting the person's personal experience but from a "research" point of view it doesn't add to the validity of the claim.

Unfortunately the entire field of paranormal is plagued with frauds, hoaxers and flat out liars (throughout ALL of history). You can thank them for the reception that skeptics tend to have.

You seem to be lumping skeptics and out right debunkers into the same heap.

That's up to you. You had your experience, it's yours whether anyone believes you or not. It's perfectly ok if others find the evidence, or lack there of, weak and to prone to bias, intentional or unintentional manipulation, wishful thinking or any of many more reasons people believe the unbelievable.

[preacherman76]

You have been told time and again, you aren’t going to find proof here. You know what they say about doing the same things over and over again, expecting different results right?

[esoteric_toad]

Just now, preacherman76 said:

You have been told time and again, you aren’t going to find proof here. You know what they say about doing the same things over and over again, expecting different results right?

You never know. As I have said before, this is NOT the only place I look.

[preacherman76]

Just now, esoteric_toad said:

You never know. As I have said before, this is NOT the only place I look.

Well you definitely are not gonna find it here. Good luck in your search. 

[macqdor]

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I have been waiting for evidence.

@stereologist

if you think the poltergeist exist only to be proven on a message board then you've defined the term "setting ones self up for failure."

The evidence I have. Thats online - THE NET OVER.

I wouldn't bring here if my life depended on it.

 

 

 

[stereologist]

1 minute ago, macqdor said:

@stereologist

if you think the poltergeist exist only to be proven on a message board then you've defined the term "setting ones self up for failure."

The evidence I have. Thats online - THE NET OVER.

I wouldn't bring here if my life depended on it.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for admitting you have nothing to offer. I believe that. I do.

 

 

 

[onlookerofmayhem]

4 hours ago, stereologist said:

There they are but what about the credentials?

Pardon me for pasting from another forum, but I feel this is relevant to the discussion.

Found this interesting exchange over at :

https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/washington-state-poltergeist-report-demons-in-seattle.61724/page-3

"Sharon Hill

Complicated biological machine

Sep 26, 2016

#86

I contacted Steve Mera regarding the demonstration of plagiarism in this report. Here is my letter to him:
 

Dear Mr. Mera:
I have read the SEP report regarding the investigation of the Keith Linder house and was unimpressed with the poor formatting, errors, stylistic messiness and the misappropriation of scientific concepts to a paranormal explanation. All that is disturbing enough but I submit the following for you to answer to - an allegation that a large portion of the report (nearly half) was simply plagiarized.
Of approximately 15,000 words, 6,700 words were copied verbatim without attribution. 
1 - Page 12, Starting with "Hallucinations can on occasion be responsible for witnesses to report a number of sensory experiences..."
Copied, without reference, from http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/hallucinations/Pages/Introduction.aspx
2 - Page 14 to 15, Starting with "Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle"
Copied, without reference, from http://chem.libretexts.org/Core/Phy..._Mechanics/Heisenberg's_Uncertainty_Principle
3 - Page 15 to 19, Starting with "The word for Poltergeist is German for 'Noisy Ghost'..."
Copied, without reference, from http://strangegr.tripod.com/strangeandparanormalactivities/id32.html
4 - Page 22, Staring with " Horsehair Pottery is a Native American art form that was discovered in 1980 by sheer accident."
Copied, without reference, from http://www.innovateus.net/crafts/how-make-horsehair-pottery
5 - Page 22, Starting with "The beast apparently can control who can and cannot buy and sell."
Copied, without reference, from http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-does-666-mean-a-bible-study/
6 - Page 24 to 26, Starting with "Loggers founded the King County community that became Bothell in the 1880s"
Copied, without reference, from http://www.sunset-hwy.com/bothellcity.htm
7 - Page 30, Starting with " Geopathic Stress: This is the result of spending long periods working..."
Copied, without reference, from http://www.royriggs.co.uk/www.royriggs.co.uk/GEOPATHIC_STRESS_RESEARCH.html
8 - Pages 32 to 33, Starting at "Kennard Corner"
Copied, without reference, from http://snocohistory.com/life-along-the-highway/kennards_corner_bothell
9 - Page 34 to 35, Starting with " Paranormal Researchers have always adopted various technologies to conduct investigations"
Much of it was copied, without reference, from https://ocprstoronto.wordpress.com/2011/02/17/the-“ghost-box”-fraud/
10 - Page 35 to 36, Starting with " Those that Lie often speak at a slower pace and provide less detail in their stories..."
Copied, without reference, from http://blog.archprofile.com/archinsights/body_language_deception
Do you not realize the seriousness of plagiarism, lack of attribution of sources and disregard for even minimal scientific standards? This reflects so poorly on your credibility that the report should be completely discarded and the SEP disgraced. The history of this case and of the behavior of Mr. Linder to promote it as paranormal (which is based on shoddy evidence and strongly suggests a hoax) also lends serious investigators to utterly dismiss it. I am baffled as to why you would release such an awful representation of your work on the Linder case.
Those who respect the ethos of science and strive to maintain ethical standards in investigations would like to hear your response to this. Please note, as the editor of DoubtfulNews.com, I am considering publishing this story.

Sharon Hill

Note: The work above was spearheaded by Kenny Biddle. Software was used to analyze the report (as is commonly done with school papers). 38% of the paper was plagiarized, not exactly "nearly half" as I originally cited.

-------
Mr. Mera replied:
 

Hello Sharon, the document you refer to is just some information for Keith, as we promised him some documented info. It is also incomplete and draft version sent to him because he was constantly asking for it. We sent him over the draft version so to keep him happy. No distribution was to take place, for which Keith was told. References are not as yet added but noted on our system. The investigation process and evidence has not even been added to the document.

The third comment in regards coppied without reference is in fact my own work. [sic]

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I will most certainly be in touch with him.
As for the investigation at the location, we have not been able to rationalise numerous incidents. 
SEP and including myself believe the incidents to be paranormal in nature.

Many thanks.
PS: If you would like to know any further information pertaining to tests carried out, evidence obtained, then please do not hesitate in contacting me.

----
Keith Linder then sent this email to me and to my DoubtfulNews Facebook page:
 

Dear Doubtful news, you may or may not have received a report about the Bothell Washington/USA case aka coined "Demons In Seattle" or "Washington State Poltergeist case". Such a report might have reached you prematurely and should be viewed as a draft only. Report is partial complete. 

The references made and the quoting of info hasn't been cemented yet. Thus making the report premature for public consumption. Please remove or amend what ever version you have.

Much thanks,

Keith LïïnderHouse Occupant

----
A few things of note:

• This case currently is about two separate issues: What, if anything, is going on at the Linder house; and, has SEP done a credible job of reporting on what they observed. So far, we don't have a complete answer to the former but the latter is a definite NO.
• Steve Mera is does not hold a PhD in parapsychology. He does not appear to be affiliated with the SPR but with several media ventures that he lists in a very long email signature. His bona fides to explain parapsychology, quantum physics, and Bible scholarship are unsupported.
• The report says "Cleared for release". In no place does it say "Draft" as you should cite clearly if it truly is not finalized.
• Why was Mr. Linder (now Liinder?) constantly asking for it? He states I "may have received a report"? Um, it was deliberately distributed by Mr. Linder to several locations across the web. That's not quite the same.
• In no way does the status of "Draft" excuse the blatant plagiarism, poor data displays and incoherent discussion of the report.

This case has a considerable backstory. I currently do not have the time available to conduct the due diligence necessary to flesh out the facts and allegations, though I hope someone does. Regardless of the facts and conclusions of the case, is THIS the way premium paranormal investigation is conducted these days? It's AWFUL! I'm thinking maybe Ghost Adventures crew did better! This is a terrible example for SEP to present of their work, draft or not -- too many egregious errors, unethical copying, and pseudoscientific piffle. If paranormal investigators wish to be taken seriously for the time and effort they put into cases, they have to raise the quality of their methods and deliverables tremendously. They have not helped Mr Linder, whatever his motives are."

@macqdor Could you please link to the final report?

[stereologist]

Thanks for that onlookerofmayhem. That does my earlier post that Steve Mera is not quite the legitimate source suggested.

There have been too many asinine comments about people not being capable of doing a fair and good analysis of these poltergeist cases.

It seems very clear that the real issue is that people do not like anyone pointing out the hoax that is their cash cow.

I must have missed the plagiarism issue. I did not follow a link I saw earlier over to doubtful news which is a pretty good source of information.

 

[macqdor]

@onlookerofmayhem

 

the final report was posted on here ages ago. 60+ pages

you'll read a report but you wont read a book about the same subject?

talk about extreme bias and contradiction. A paradox of extreme proportions

 

LOL !

 

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The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.^[2][3]

Straw man tactics in the United Kingdom can be known as an Aunt Sally, after a pub game of the same name, where patrons threw sticks or battens at a post to knock off a skittle balanced on top.^[4][5]

 

[onlookerofmayhem]

@macqdor

I don't know how you know what "research" I have or haven't done. That's pretty presumptuous. 

I have read dozens of books on and containing the subject. I've also read plenty of forum discussions and other web material. I've watched hundreds, if not thousands of videos/clips.

I asked for the link because I couldn't find it here. I figured it would be best to get it from you, the direct source. While searching I came across the discussion above. It just goes to show this man's credentials are subject to examination. I was hoping to see if the final report was any improvement on the "draft"

[stereologist]

I've been reading about this Linder hoax at several places on the net and the more I read the more I laugh at the ludicrous nature of this hoax.

This is a hoax for the only the most gullible.

The flimflam team of Mera and Phillips suggest that it's Irish settlers causing the problem.

Every few lines is the refrain "It's real." 

This is really funny to read. I now appreciate Macqdor's reluctance to provide anythign at all. It made me go out and get a good laugh at this Linder joke.

 

[macqdor]

Please tell me the books you read on poltergeist?

show me yours I'll show you mine?

even exchange

@onlookerofmayhem

What is a Poltergeist?: Understanding Poltergeist Activity by Geoff Holder     Great read!

[onlookerofmayhem]

@macqdor

The Complete Book of Ghosts and Poltergeists by Leonard Ashley.

That's one example. I haven't kept a bibliography over the years so I'm afraid I can't rattle off a list of exact books.

 

[ChrLzs]

Busted.   Nice work, Onlooker - I remember that now...

It just goes to show the sort of people who do this, and what they think is OK to steal....

FTR Keith Linder / macqdor has advertisements on the front page of Unexplained Mysteries...  and frankly I think he treats the place like a personal blog rather than engage in proper debate...

 

For anyone interested in the depths to which his misuse of this forum reach, may I suggest here, where he doesn't seem to have the same views on poltergeists and whether they can be captured on video - it seems that story just changes as needed:

Note that back then, even Habitat called macqdor out for the 'bovine excrement' he was posting..

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Smells like something more rusticated to me, bovine excreta.

Remember that thread, Hab?

 

Out of interest, on other threads at UM, macqdor / Keith Linder tried the same thing on with American Indian 'spiritulaity' and was very promptly brought down to earth and exposed by our own Piney, and Swede, eg here:

Yup, it seems everything old is new again, right macqdor?

 

[macqdor]

How many *** stars would you get it?

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Leonard Ashley takes you on a into the world of the dead and the undead where you will read about haunting from the departed who have returned to poltergeist who persecute the living.

@onlookerofmayhem

[Saru]

Thread closed for moderator review.