Trump surrenders to Democrats

[Black Red Devil]

16 minutes ago, and then said:

Or he could just go with the Progs and let the whole freakin' world come in.  The place would be so ruined that the problem would be solved.  Every street could be floating in human waste just like San Francisco and Portland.  That'd be nice, yeah?  Yeah, that's the ticket, negative reinforcement.

Mate, the wall is an absolute joke.  If you want to stop the flow, assist the poorer countries and give them an incentive to stay home. 

[Myles]

2 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Mate, the wall is an absolute joke.  If you want to stop the flow, assist the poorer countries and give them an incentive to stay home. 

I'd prefer the wall.  

[Black Red Devil]

Trump thinks his threat of shutting down in a couple of weeks if the Democrats don't relent is going to achieve his wish.  It's not.  Look at the figures in the month he shut down the Govt.  People mostly blamed him and most of them reached a point they didn't care less about the wall. Pelosi should hold firm, he told the American public he would own the shutdown, he told the American public Mexico would pay for the wall, let him sink with his broken promises on his own, she doesn't need to push him.

 

[Black Red Devil]

7 minutes ago, Myles said:

I'd prefer the wall.  

You'll need to consider alternatives because your preferred option isn't looking good.

[Myles]

6 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

You'll need to consider alternatives because your preferred option isn't looking good.

I figured that from the start.   Hopefully whatever they end up agreeing on can have some teeth.   Fines for companies that hire illegals should be one.  

Trumps company would have been fined.   I did see where his company fired a dozen illegals today (or yesterday).   Good for them. 

[Black Red Devil]

On 1/28/2019 at 9:14 AM, and then said:

They "get away" with their childish, arrogant behavior because they control the media 5th column.  They understand this and the rest of the country is finally beginning to twig to it as well.  Let the pot simmer.  Secession movements may be the best we can hope for.  No way a Federal military can or would attempt to pacify States that told them to *^%^*&%-off.  They could stand guard in urban areas but would only succeed in damaging their economies.  The U.S. military is drawn disproportionately from areas that would be ready to secede.  The sooner the better, IMO.  Stupid cowards will be standing around in an hysterical panic when they realize THEY will actually have to stand for what they say they believe in.  BURN IT DOWN!

Wouldn't it be ironic if your armchair hawkish wish for civil war and prophetic world war apocalypse would actually come to fruition but you'd miss out on all the fun because a first hour stray bullet would make you the first casualty?

[Michelle]

It is figured the shutdown costed the US 11 billion. Trump is asking for roughly 5 billion. Who is cutting their nose off to spite their face?

[Black Red Devil]

5 minutes ago, Myles said:

I figured that from the start.   Hopefully whatever they end up agreeing on can have some teeth.   Fines for companies that hire illegals should be one.  

Trumps company would have been fined.   I did see where his company fired a dozen illegals today (or yesterday).   Good for them. 

Yeah, better late than never. 

I suppose an alternative of stopping people at the border is to stop them before they depart. 

[Big Jim]

24 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Mate, the wall is an absolute joke.  If you want to stop the flow, assist the poorer countries and give them an incentive to stay home. 

We've been assisting other countries for decades and it hasn't worked.  All we have done is make them poor countries with money, modern day Beverly Hillbillies, if you will.  The problem is that no matter how much aid we give them they will never be America. We will continue to be the Shining City on the Hill, as Reagan so deftly put it.  They will come because we offer what no amount of foreign aid can buy - opportunity, equality and freedom.  No amount of money can make them be like us, but too much immigration will eventually make us be like them.  Then what?

[Myles]

8 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Yeah, better late than never. 

I suppose an alternative of stopping people at the border is to stop them before they depart. 

Can't do that.   That would be more of a waste of money than a wall. 

[Black Red Devil]

14 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

We've been assisting other countries for decades and it hasn't worked.  All we have done is make them poor countries with money, modern day Beverly Hillbillies, if you will.  The problem is that no matter how much aid we give them they will never be America. We will continue to be the Shining City on the Hill, as Reagan so deftly put it.  They will come because we offer what no amount of foreign aid can buy - opportunity, equality and freedom.  No amount of money can make them be like us, but too much immigration will eventually make us be like them.  Then what?

Well I put this link in another thread. link You give Israel 2.9 bilion, mostly for military aid.  Israel is by far the most powerful country in the region and is aligned to the Europeans and Americans.  I'm sure they could do without the aid or at least most of it.  Why not shift the money to these poorer Central American countries?  I understand puppet dictators might take advantage of the lucro but this could easily be monitored by your Govt.  In fact it even says it in my link, most current aid goes to third party NGO's instead of been given directly to (possibly untrustworthy) Govts.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Black Red Devil

[+and-then]

18 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Wouldn't it be ironic if your armchair hawkish wish for civil war and prophetic world war apocalypse would actually come to fruition but you'd miss out on all the fun because a first hour stray bullet would make you the first casualty?

There are lots of ironies in this world, BRD.  Having people constantly misconstrue or outright prevaricate about my outlook and desires isn't one of them, however.  As to those things happening, only a staunch denier can look out at the world today and not see it coming.  All I can say is, sleep well while you have the chance.  I don't worry about when I'll die.  It's a waste of time.  Carpe Diem, and all that...

[Black Red Devil]

9 minutes ago, Myles said:

Can't do that.   That would be more of a waste of money than a wall. 

But you're probably not getting the wall so it's all back to square one.

[Michelle]

9 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

We've been assisting other countries for decades and it hasn't worked.

Celebrity concerts and fundraisers raising billions of dollars too.

[Gromdor]

1 minute ago, Black Red Devil said:

But you're probably not getting the wall so it's all back to square one.

Truthfully, we already have a few hundred miles of wall that is already there and needs maintenance and upgrades.  Some of the upgrades are even already scheduled.  I see a bit of money going there because of previous commitments and what is actually necessary.  It might be enough for Trump to toot his horn and claim victory even.

What the democrats are at war with is the ridiculous notion that the wall is a panacea.  (And also the idea that Trump can extort money by using a government shutdown.)

[+and-then]

2 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Well I put this link in another thread. link You give Israel 2.9 bilion, mostly for military aid.  Israel is by far the most powerful country in the region and is aligned to the Europeans and Americans.  I'm sure they could do without the aid or at least most of it.  Why not shift the money to these poorer Central American countries?  I understand puppet dictators might take advantage of the lucro but this could easily be monitored by your Govt.  In fact it even says it in my link, most current aid goes to third party NGO's instead of been given directly to (possibly untrustworthy) Govts.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/should-us-military-aid-to-israel-be-cut

https://www.adl.org/resources/fact-sheets/response-to-common-inaccuracy-us-gives-israel-too-much-aid 

I realize this will be ignored because it doesn't fit the "narrative" you guys push but here goes, for the open-minded among UM:

Foreign aid creates jobs in the United States and boosts our economy. By law, nearly all U.S. assistance must be spent on American-produced goods. Israel spends nearly 75% of U.S. aid in the U.S. to purchase military equipment.  

If that aid is a welfare program, it's welfare for U.S. defense contractors.

[Black Red Devil]

2 minutes ago, and then said:

There are lots of ironies in this world, BRD.  Having people constantly misconstrue or outright prevaricate about my outlook and desires isn't one of them, however.  As to those things happening, only a staunch denier can look out at the world today and not see it coming.  All I can say is, sleep well while you have the chance.  I don't worry about when I'll die.  It's a waste of time.  Carpe Diem, and all that...

I'm sure the world has seen worst.  The black death killed 2/3 of the world population.  Like good bacteria we'll survive, progress and prosper and nothing the likes of Trump, Putin and fanatic extremists can do about it.

[+and-then]

3 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

And also the idea that Trump can extort money by using a government shutdown.)

The D's do it, so why not Trump?  Oh, I forgot, he's the bad, orange Ogre.  Dumb asses... BURN IT DOWN

[+and-then]

1 minute ago, Black Red Devil said:

I'm sure the world has seen worst.  The black death killed 2/3 of the world population.  Like good bacteria we'll survive, progress and prosper and nothing the likes of Trump, Putin and fanatic extremists can do about it.

Otay, Buckwheat, whatever you say.  

[Kismit]

Posters are requested to discuss the topic with civility, thank you.

3f. Abusive behaviour: Do not be rude, insulting, offensive, snide, obnoxious or abusive towards other members.

[Black Red Devil]

29 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Truthfully, we already have a few hundred miles of wall that is already there and needs maintenance and upgrades.  Some of the upgrades are even already scheduled.  I see a bit of money going there because of previous commitments and what is actually necessary.  It might be enough for Trump to toot his horn and claim victory even.

What the democrats are at war with is the ridiculous notion that the wall is a panacea.  (And also the idea that Trump can extort money by using a government shutdown.)

Yeah I'm aware of all of this, although I'm not too convinced about it being enough for him to toot his horn with.  He's obviously putting on a show for propaganda so the American public can see he wasn't the one that reneged on his election promise but he was forced to do so.  I doubt he really ever had any intention in building a 3,145 km wall otherwise he would have got things going a lot sooner.  It's debatable whether this is enough to keep heads turning his way. 

Edited January 28, 2019 by Black Red Devil

[Black Red Devil]

15 minutes ago, and then said:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/should-us-military-aid-to-israel-be-cut

https://www.adl.org/resources/fact-sheets/response-to-common-inaccuracy-us-gives-israel-too-much-aid 

I realize this will be ignored because it doesn't fit the "narrative" you guys push but here goes, for the open-minded among UM:

Foreign aid creates jobs in the United States and boosts our economy. By law, nearly all U.S. assistance must be spent on American-produced goods. Israel spends nearly 75% of U.S. aid in the U.S. to purchase military equipment.  

If that aid is a welfare program, it's welfare for U.S. defense contractors.

So Israel is spending 75% of US aid on US military equipment.  So they're basically getting these weapons for free and you don't call that aid? 

[skliss]

Why should we always be the ones to shell out to these countries? Let someone else do it for once. Or let them stay home and fix it themselves. I used to think it was our responsibility but years and years of the money we send being stolen by the corrupt govts and people flooding here and acting like we owe them has brought out the cynical in me.

[RAyMO]

1 hour ago, and then said:

If that aid is a welfare program, it's welfare for U.S. defense contractors.

100%

[Big Jim]

1 hour ago, Michelle said:

Celebrity concerts and fundraisers raising billions of dollars too.

There's an old Fleetwood Mac lyric that says "Tax the rich to help the poor until there are no rich no more".  We've been fighting the War on Poverty since the Johnson administration and we have more poor people than ever.  If we can't help our own citizens by giving them money, with all the other great things we have, how can we expect to make poor countries attractive enough that people want to stay there?  People or countries that don't produce will always be poor, no matter how much help they get.  It almost seems to be counter productive, as if by giving other countries money we cause the citizens to think that "America is so rich they're giving it away.  Let's go there."