Doing God's will.

[Will Due]

3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Look. I'm not blaming you. Over the past few weeks here I've been repeatedly insulted, called an idiot, and cussed at. I've been making a conscious effort to change my typical approach to things. (Ton of headaches cause of it, I mean bad stress headaches). Normally I'm an utter a-hole. So I'm a bit on edge. Breaking habits is a pain.

 

Looks to me like you're headlong into the essence of the business of "doing God's will"

The headaches will go away. The response ability will remain.

 

 

[Will Due]

7 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Or someone who claims to "know the unknowable" and has decided that they know the mind of god.

 

It's not until a person decides to know something, "unkowable" or not, that anything becomes known.

The decision to find out, comes first.

 

 

[Jodie.Lynne]

6 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Which might exactly be what it is. But only at first.

Doing God's will has to start somewhere.

Like walking, it doesn't become something a person does without thinking about it until it's learned and becomes a habit.

 

 

Yes, one can practice self-delusion until it becomes automatic. As in your case. Prattling on about following gods will, when you cannot even describe what it is.

 

Simply put:

Some people follow gods will and spread hatred and homophobia.

Some people follow gods will and help the less fortunate.

Some follow gods will and slaughter the unbeliever.

Some follow gods will and live lives of solitude and contemplation.

Some follow gods will and reap huge fortunes conning the gullible.

 

And they ALL think they are right.

Seems to me like god has a lot of wills.

[+Hammerclaw]

5 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

True, but what of the leader?

That's who I am talking about. The one who shouts "I know!" and gets others to follow them.

I'm not thinking about the snake-oil salesmen, but the ones who sincerely believe that they can know a deity's mind.

It's a difference that makes no difference. Both garner an entourage of mindless sycophants.

[XenoFish]

Maybe I'm just one of those poor fools who needs to believe in free will. Because for the past 22 years I've had to make stuff happen, regardless of how I felt. I've had to choose to work through, sickness, exhaustion, depression, and a whole bunch of other stuff, while a part of me screams "give up." and I wouldn't heed it.

Perhaps that is my biggest flaw. Denial.

That struggle between what I need to do vs. what I want to do.

 

[Will Due]

1 minute ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Seems to me like god has a lot of wills.

 

Not all who wander are lost.

 

 

[Horta]

@Jodie.Lynne

Perhaps I should have said "physical"? Though it amounts to the same thing. Our entire psyche is derived from physical/biological structures. Behaviour is derived from them also. There is no magical non physical thing calling the shots. It follows cause and effect.

[Will Due]

4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Maybe I'm just one of those poor fools who needs to believe in free will. Because for the past 22 years I've had to make stuff happen, regardless of how I felt. I've had to choose to work through, sickness, exhaustion, depression, and a whole bunch of other stuff, while a part of me screams "give up." and I wouldn't heed it.

Perhaps that is my biggest flaw. Denial.

That struggle between what I need to do vs. what I want to do.

 

 

A big thumbs up Xeno!

 

 

[XenoFish]

If I'm getting praise from Will. I know I'm screwed up.

[Will Due]

7 minutes ago, Horta said:

@Jodie.Lynne

Perhaps I should have said "physical"? Though it amounts to the same thing. Our entire psyche is derived from physical/biological structures. Behaviour is derived from them also. There is no magical non physical thing calling the shots. It follows cause and effect.

 

Why do you keep denying there's more to all of us than things physical?

Are you afraid to admit that you are more than you know?

 

 

[Jodie.Lynne]

2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

That struggle between what I need to do vs. what I want to do.

That is a struggle we all face. 

Would it be easier to scream "I give up!" and lie down and die?

Yeah, it would be, So much easier to take that pill, or step off that ledge, pull that trigger. But what makes us mighty is overcoming that moment of weakness. Of saying "F--- NO!, You aren't taking me without a fight!", and pressing onwards. At the natural end of our lives, will all the struggle mean anything? Be damned if I know, but I still keep putting on foot in front of another, and saying "One more day, just make it one more day" and doing my damnedest not to succumb to despair.

 

So for all you believers, yeah, when I say show me the evidence, I have a reason. I want to know if the pain is worth bearing, or if it all ends in blackness. And if there is nothing beyond this life, and the struggle is meaningless, then why should I continue? 

 

And all the smug, smarmy 'righteousness' of the believer who states "I KNOW!" proves nothing.

[Horta]

Curiously enough, the concept that humans have no genuine free will makes the (supposed) teachings of jesus to "love your enemy" and those of the buddha regarding compassion, very rational. 

[Jodie.Lynne]

12 minutes ago, Horta said:

@Jodie.Lynne

Perhaps I should have said "physical"? Though it amounts to the same thing. Our entire psyche is derived from physical/biological structures. Behaviour is derived from them also. There is no magical non physical thing calling the shots. It follows cause and effect.

Behaviours are learned, while some are instinctive. An infants need to taste everything, as opposed to looking both ways before crossing a road.

I do not follow how biology or physicality ties in. 

[XenoFish]

Jodie, I almost did pull the trigger and I still don't know exactly why I'm still around. Plus I really don't want to revisit those memories. Maybe we all need some type of delusion/illusion to live by? 

[XenoFish]

Who am I to judge anything? 

[XenoFish]

4 minutes ago, Horta said:

Curiously enough, the concept that humans have no genuine free will makes the (supposed) teachings of jesus to "love your enemy" and those of the buddha regarding compassion, very rational. 

Maybe we should just put shock collars on everyone. So that any harmful impulse is zapped out of them Pavlov everybody.

[Jodie.Lynne]

3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Jodie, I almost did pull the trigger and I still don't know exactly why I'm still around. Plus I really don't want to revisit those memories. Maybe we all need some type of delusion/illusion to live by? 

That's why I understand your pain and frustration so well.

I'm not trying to be melodramatic, but every morning before getting out of bed, I find one reason (just need one) to carry on. So far, I've found one. Every day.

[Will Due]

17 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

That is a struggle we all face. 

Would it be easier to scream "I give up!" and lie down and die?

Yeah, it would be, So much easier to take that pill, or step off that ledge, pull that trigger. But what makes us mighty is overcoming that moment of weakness. Of saying "F--- NO!, You aren't taking me without a fight!", and pressing onwards. At the natural end of our lives, will all the struggle mean anything? Be damned if I know, but I still keep putting on foot in front of another, and saying "One more day, just make it one more day" and doing my damnedest not to succumb to despair.

 

So for all you believers, yeah, when I say show me the evidence, I have a reason. I want to know if the pain is worth bearing, or if it all ends in blackness. And if there is nothing beyond this life, and the struggle is meaningless, then why should I continue? 

 

And all the smug, smarmy 'righteousness' of the believer who states "I KNOW!" proves nothing.

 

I think every individual person is the only one who can definitively tell themselves that they know the answers to the question of whether or not there's a meaningful purpose to the struggles of living.

To me, everyone else I know, everyone else I encounter, the fact that some are willing to share what their struggles are with me, all of those things are the evidence that the pain I suffer is worth bearing. That it isn't for nothing. That it doesn't end in blackness.

All of you are the evidence of that to me.

 

 

[Will Due]

29 minutes ago, Horta said:

Curiously enough, the concept that humans have no genuine free will makes the (supposed) teachings of jesus to "love your enemy" and those of the buddha regarding compassion, very rational. 

 

What do you mean? Seems like you would've said irrational. Instead of rational.

 

 

[+Liquid Gardens]

1 hour ago, Horta said:

It should be easy to demonstrate free will.

I think this is where we disagree, I'm entirely at the opposite end, I think it's impossible.  I cannot conceive of an experiment design involving someone making a decision where we could all differentiate the result, I don't think there is any, 'if they had free will, this is what we would expect'. 

1 hour ago, Horta said:

Libet type experiments showing that will precedes the brains decisions would at least be evidence that it exists. If that happened I would be open to the possibility that both free will and the "soul" could exist.

I guess I just view Libet type experiments (and there seems to be some legitimate reasons to have some skepticism and caution about what those experiments exactly show) as icing on the cake.  You've mentioned many things critical of free will in your posts I think almost all that I agree with, it's essentially being proposed that somehow evolution was able to assemble deterministic forces to make something that is both non-deterministic and under our control, which I agree at this point pretty much requires magic.  All of your criticisms 100% apply in the scenario where the conscious mind is the source of decisions, so for me I wouldn't be that much more open to the idea of free will if the Libet type experiments didn't show what they did.

2 hours ago, Horta said:

It's curious that even atheists who decry the paranormal are usually sure they have a thing called a "consciousness" that somehow possesses this "free will" as this seems quite a paranormal claim in itself. 

Definitely doubtful about the free will part, pretty positive about possessing a consciousness though; sure seems to be something aware of the decisions I'm not actually making. 

2 hours ago, Horta said:

In a universe where it really did exist and the "will" wasn't simply an extension of biology, why wouldn't we see tourettes sufferers simply use there "free will" to stop having tourettes? Or long term depression, multiple personality disorder, ocd, schizophrenia? Simply stopping these things should be easy, if the mind is not reliant on cause and effect and dictated by biology?  How believers reconcile this, who knows. Perhaps it's only some people who have free will, some of the time lol?

Ha, could be.  I'm not sure that mental disorders are a problem for free will, maybe some would be, although since those must have physical causes I'm not sure it's much different than expecting to stop our heartbeat by will alone which we usually don't require under 'free will'.   What's weird to me is what the lack of free will means about who 'I' am.  'I' seem to mainly just be an experiencer, I may as well be on a rollercoaster though as far as the control I have over the experience.  What's cool is that even if we don't have free will, we're endowed with the absolute top-notch free will simulation software available so doesn't matter much.  So what if it's just an ever-evolving algorithm in my unconscious that's pulling the strings, that would only be a problem if I mistakenly didn't consider my unconscious as much a part of 'me' and who I am as the conscious.

[+Liquid Gardens]

1 hour ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Theoretical case in point: You go back in time to watch your grandfather propose to your grandmother. No matter how many times you observe it, the result would be the same, since your grandfather DID propose, and your grandmother DID accept. Because the events have occurred, from your perspective, they will always occur. They are 'fixed points' in your own timeline. And if they should change, you would alter your present. Or, create a new separate timeline.

Good point, I think you've summed up a few Star Trek story lines there. 

[psyche101]

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

Why do you keep denying there's more to all of us than things physical?

Are you afraid to admit that you are more than you know?

Some of us are happier with the most mundane truth rather than the most elaborate fantasy. 

[XenoFish]

4 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Some of us are happier with the most mundane truth rather than the most elaborate fantasy. 

Sometimes I'd like to have some type of fantasy to escape into. 

[Will Due]

Fantasy 

 

[psyche101]

26 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Sometimes I'd like to have some type of fantasy to escape into. 

Hollywood does it much better than these, far fetched stories from posters