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Will Due

Doing God's will.

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Horta
16 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Free will (the power of choice) is not absolute. Nevertheless, it is relatively final concerning destiny.
 

If you are just saying the (apparent) "ability to make a choice" is free will, that's ok, but I have a different definition.

The idea that we "could have chosen differently" in exactly the same circumstances with all else being equal, would generally be accepted as "free will". There is no reason to think this could happen.

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Horta
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

ETA: And I think you may have invalidated your argument. If our genes control our psyche/consciousness, then a hetero couple could NOT produce a homosexual child, no?

Perhaps if you explained what you mean by "psyche"?

Did I say "controlled"? I don't think I did, but if I did it would have been careless. It is the blueprint for the nervous system we have though which is a physical system. I thought the whole point I made was that our psyche was "causally determined". Thus our psyche is an expression of our genes, interacting with the environment. The psyche is the end result of a prior causal chain (if you see this as "controlled", then yes it is controlled).

I completely disagree with your statement. This would require that being gay is "learned behaviour" or that it somehow constitutes a genuine "choice". Why couldn't straight people derive gay people, or short people derive taller people? Where and how does my logic lead you to this?

Psyche.

The totality of our mind.

Edited by Horta

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Horta
Posted (edited)

double post.

Edited by Horta

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Will Due
Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Horta said:

If you are just saying the (apparent) "ability to make a choice" is free will, that's ok, but I have a different definition.

The idea that we "could have chosen differently" in exactly the same circumstances with all else being equal, would generally be accepted as "free will". There is no reason to think this could happen.

 

No. You can't go back in time.

Free will (the power to choose) implies that a person "could have chosen differently". Therefore, there is no reason to think that a person could NOT have chosen differently in the same exact circumstance. This is the purpose of the power to choose is it not?

Destiny is determined by these choices. However perturbing or satisfying that might be.

But if a wrong choice was made in the past, there will always be an opportunity to make choices that aren't wrong (for a while) in the future. 

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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Horta
1 minute ago, Will Due said:

 

Free will (the power to choose) implies that a person "could have chosen differently". Therefore, there is no reason to think that a person could NOT have chosen differently in the same exact circumstance. This is the purpose of the power to choose is it not?

 

This is discredited by every understanding we have of the universe so far. It requires choice to be either contra-causal or acausal. There is no reason to believe that anything that happens in the brain resulting in a "choice" is contra-causal. Exactly the opposite. If choice could be acausal, it couldn't be willed.

Quote

Destiny is determined by these choices. However perturbing or satisfying that might be.

But if a wrong choice was made in the past, there will always be opportunities to make choices that aren't wrong in the future. 

Yet these choices themselves are the result of a causal chain that is almost entirely out of our control and that we are mostly oblivious to. That's what we need to take into account. Of course people can learn from mistakes. If machines can learn, so can we.

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Will Due
3 minutes ago, Horta said:

If choice could be acausal, it couldn't be willed.

 

Let me see if I understand what you're saying. You're saying that if choice could occur without it being caused (which it can't) choice couldn't be willed. Is that right?

My head is spinning Horta.

Could I choose without causing myself to choose? 

No.

In order to choose, I definitely need to use the power to choose (free will) to cause a choice to be made.

I'm really baffled why you are arguing that the ordinary everyday occurrences of simple choice is somehow not real. It feels like you're trying to avoid something. But correct me if I'm wrong. 

 

 

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Will Due
Posted (edited)

 

Every new choice is independent of every other past choice.

How else would it be possible to realize that morally (or ethically) you were ever wrong about something?

How could anyone ever "correct a wrong"?

No machine can do that. Not now, not ever. But a person can.

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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Horta
55 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Let me see if I understand what you're saying. You're saying that if choice could occur without it being caused (which it can't) choice couldn't be willed. Is that right?

My head is spinning Horta. 

 

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

The only option for you to make a freely willed choice, requires contra-causal will. If you "could have chosen otherwise" for any given state of the universe. That's because the brain states that  are part of that given state of the universe (that led to your choice), would be identical no matter how many times it is replayed. So you need some principle that allows different choices from the exact same brain states. Can't happen.

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Will Due
6 minutes ago, Horta said:

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

The only option for you to make a freely willed choice, requires contra-causal will. If you "could have chosen otherwise" for any given state of the universe. That's because the brain states that  are part of that given state of the universe (that led to your choice), would be identical no matter how many times it is replayed. So you need some principle that allows different choices from the exact same brain states. Can't happen.

 

There's an interesting aspect to this discussion about free will. As usual, there seems to be an elephant in the room. The proverbial large looming thing that's being heartedly avoided. But not without great hair splitting effort.

The power to choose is limited, that's for sure, but there's no denying, there exists a more than adequate range wherein to make real choices. 

At the top of this pyramid piled up of things to choose, sits the most important choice of all, which is often avoided as long as possible. And not without reason, but avoided nonetheless.

Sometimes, it's avoided with lengthy Rube Goldberg like machinations of mental pretzel making gymnastics doing nothing, but consuming valuable time. But there still, is the elephant. Swinging his trunk and trumpeting his presence, while at the apex of things human remains the unquestionable question:

Shall I make a gift to God, dedication of the free will to the doing of the will of God?

 

 

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Horta
12 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

There's an interesting aspect to this discussion about free will. As usual, there seems to be an elephant in the room. The proverbial large looming thing that's being heartedly avoided. But not without great hair splitting effort.

The power to choose is limited, that's for sure, but there's no denying, there exists a more than adequate range wherein to make real choices. 

At the top of this pyramid piled up of things to choose, sits the most important choice of all, which is often avoided as long as possible. And not without reason, but avoided nonetheless.

Sometimes, it's avoided with lengthy Rube Goldberg like machinations of mental pretzel making gymnastics doing nothing, but consuming valuable time. But there still, is the elephant. Swinging his trunk and trumpeting his presence, while at the apex of things human remains the unquestionable question:

Shall I make a gift to God, dedication of the free will to the doing of the will of God?

 

 

I disagree Will. It's black and white and about as subtle as a sledgehammer.

There is no principle we have found so far in the universe, that allows for the type of free will you propose.

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Horta

ps. There is also no available logic which supports the claim either. It seems to fail on every level.

The best way I have heard the dilemna explained is...

"All logic is against free will, all experience is for it."

I'll go with logic and science on this one. Humans are too easily deluded. If you really give it enough thought and observation, you'll see that "experience" really doesn't support it either. It's fair enough if you still wish to believe in it personally, or claim it relies on some paranormal process beyond observation and logic. That's a personal belief though.

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Will Due
3 minutes ago, Horta said:

There is no principle we have found so far in the universe, that allows for the type of free will you propose.

 

Then by your choice about this, you have validated that in this universe, you have the power to choose.

 

 

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Will Due
Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Horta said:

ps. There is also no available logic which supports the claim either. It seems to fail on every level.

The best way I have heard the dilemna explained is...

"All logic is against free will, all experience is for it."

I'll go with logic and science on this one. Humans are too easily deluded. If you really give it enough thought and observation, you'll see that "experience" really doesn't support it either. It's fair enough if you still wish to believe in it personally, or claim it relies on some paranormal process beyond observation and logic. That's a personal belief though.

 

There is nothing paranormal involved in making a choice that's within your power to choose.

Least of all is what you choose to dedicate your will to doing.

And what you choose to do with the use of your mind.

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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Horta
17 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Then by your choice about this, you have validated that in this universe, you have the power to choose.

 

 

Of course.

But it can never be "freely willed" in the sense you propose. Unless you can think of something that allows for "could have chosen otherwise" in any particular situation, either logically or in principle?

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Will Due
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Horta said:

Of course.

But it can never be "freely willed" in the sense you propose. Unless you can think of something that allows for "could have chosen otherwise" in any particular situation, either logically or in principle?

 

What color shirt are you wearing?

Could you have chosen to wear a different shirt?

It's baffling. That you want to make a case (for example) that you do not have a the power to choose which shirt to wear.

Is that what you're making a case for? That you couldn't have chosen to wear a different shirt? 

It's as if you're trying to make a case that your not responsible for your choices.

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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Horta
1 minute ago, Will Due said:

 

What color shirt are you wearing?

Could you have chosen to wear a different shirt?

It's baffling. That you want to make a case (for example) that you do not have a the power to choose which shirt to wear.

Is that what you're making a case for? That you couldn't have chosen to wear a different shirt? 

It's as if you're trying to make a case that your not responsible for your choices.

 

 

I obviously have the power to choose a shirt to wear.

There are causes behind such choice though, they don't really arrive out of thin air. They do have a causal chain leading up to them that we're usually unaware of.

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Will Due
Just now, Horta said:

I obviously have the power to choose a shirt to wear.

There are causes behind such choice though, they don't really arrive out of thin air. They do have a causal chain leading up to them that we're usually unaware of.

 

So you don't have anything to do with what precedes the moment you choose what shirt to wear? Is that what you're saying?

 

 

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Horta
1 minute ago, Will Due said:

 

So you don't have anything to do with what precedes the moment you choose what shirt to wear? Is that what you're saying?

 

 

More like the billions of years before it. 

When the thought pops into our head of what type and color shirt we are going to wear, where do you think it comes from Will?

You realise that for you to create that thought, you would need to know what the thought was before you created it? If it just pops into our head from somewhere, how can we claim that we "freely willed" it? The whole idea is illogical, despite the intuitive feeling (illusion IMO) it makes no sense.

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Will Due
1 minute ago, Horta said:

More like the billions of years before it. 

When the thought pops into our head of what type and color shirt we are going to wear, where do you think it comes from Will?

You realise that for you to create that thought, you would need to know what the thought was before you created it? If it just pops into our head from somewhere, how can we claim that we "freely willed" it? The whole idea is illogical, despite the intuitive feeling (illusion IMO) it makes no sense.

 

Holy crap. You're right. It makes no sense to choose a shirt to wear.

Tomorrow I'm going shirtless. Screw a billion years! :lol:

 

 

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Horta
Just now, Will Due said:

 

Holy crap. You're right. It makes no sense to choose a shirt to wear.

Tomorrow I'm going shirtless. Screw a billion years! :lol:

 

 

That's silly.

You will choose a shirt (unless it's really hot), but you will have no inkling of most of the causes that make you do this. Instead you will (wrongly) credit your conscious self for having made a freely willed decision. Despite knowing that if that decision were replayed endlessly with all things being equal, you could never have chosen differently.

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Will Due
3 minutes ago, Horta said:

That's silly.

You will choose a shirt (unless it's really hot), but you will have no inkling of most of the causes that make you do this. Instead you will (wrongly) credit your conscious self for having made a freely willed decision. Despite knowing that if that decision were replayed endlessly with all things being equal, you could never have chosen differently.

 

I only own one shirt.

 

 

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Horta
2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

I only own one shirt.

 

 

:lol:

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darkmoonlady
Posted (edited)

Not to interrupt your important free will shirt choice debate but free will doesn't exist. It's a concept and an easily shot down concept. Ok you say we have free will. Free will gives us choices. How many? I'm guessing the OP is going to say limitless and then go off on a tangent. Nope very limited. We are always subject to confines, limits, boundaries. Free will isn't free. I can't become a fish no matter how much time I spend swimming. I can't fly, can't stop breathing oxygen and breath say methane instead. Nope confines of being human prevent me, limits of technology whatever it's not happening. For the choices we do have everyone of them is a 50/50 split. I could stay home tomorrow or leave the house. Get out of bed or not. Die in my sleep or live another day. Those are generalized but they represent that for whatever choice we make, we lose the ability to go back and based on the choice made are limited as future choices because time moved forward and will eventually end. Only goes one direction and we are in it. You can't choose to not move forward in time. Now if we were a god type being maybe, maybe not, we haven't seen or met one so we can only guess and the evidence isn't there for one.

Edited by darkmoonlady
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Will Due
3 hours ago, darkmoonlady said:

Not to interrupt your important free will shirt choice debate but free will doesn't exist. It's a concept and an easily shot down concept. Ok you say we have free will. Free will gives us choices. How many? I'm guessing the OP is going to say limitless and then go off on a tangent. Nope very limited. We are always subject to confines, limits, boundaries. Free will isn't free. I can't become a fish no matter how much time I spend swimming. I can't fly, can't stop breathing oxygen and breath say methane instead. Nope confines of being human prevent me, limits of technology whatever it's not happening. For the choices we do have everyone of them is a 50/50 split. I could stay home tomorrow or leave the house. Get out of bed or not. Die in my sleep or live another day. Those are generalized but they represent that for whatever choice we make, we lose the ability to go back and based on the choice made are limited as future choices because time moved forward and will eventually end. Only goes one direction and we are in it. You can't choose to not move forward in time. Now if we were a god type being maybe, maybe not, we haven't seen or met one so we can only guess and the evidence isn't there for one.

 

Repeatedly, over and over again, I have stated that our free will is limited.

But free enough to choose to make a gift to God, dedication of the free will to the doing of his will.

Spare me the usual comments please (if you don't mind) about God and the questions about his existence but rather, would you be honest and admit that it's within the range of your freedom to choose to dedicate your will to something? Go ahead and name your favorite issue.

 

 

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