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Will Due

Doing God's will.

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Will Due
Just now, psyche101 said:

You just said it can't lie, and now you are saying it is 

Was someone else posting on your behalf last week and before? This is more like what we regularly see in here from you. Nonsense. Joc said he suspected a ghost writer had taken over for you. It does seem rather plausible right now. 

 

I'm talking about you. And everybody else who goes there with the Lie Lie Lie Lie Lie Lie Lie thing. 

Don't you see that it exposes you for having lost your place?

 

 

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psyche101
Just now, Will Due said:

I'm talking about you.

Well that makes even less sense. What are you specifically considering a lie? Your preaching or your penchant for sexual metaphors? 

Just now, Will Due said:

And everybody else who goes there with the Lie Lie Lie Lie Lie Lie Lie thing. 

Things are what they are Will. If you say the universe has a centre, that's a lie, because every observation prediction and evidence suggests otherwise. 

Just now, Will Due said:

Don't you see that it exposes you for having lost your place?

Not following you at all. What place are you referring to? 

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Mr Walker
5 hours ago, danydandan said:

How can you choose to be imposed to? 

But anyways in that statement your making a number of assumptions you have no evidence to support. 

Assumption1. There is a God, assumption2. God has a Will, assumption3. If you choose to let him, he can impose that Will upon you, assumption4. That we humans actually have free Will. 

Without saying we are ignorant of the obvious evidence for all these assumptions can you provide anything that resembles actual evidence of your assumptions? 

Edit: I didn't see the "in my opinion" part. So are you looking to discuss your opening post from a purely spiritual perspective, without us demanding sceptical individuals asking you for evidence for everything? 

Or are you happy to answer a question every now and then so your preaching can continue. Often I'd swear you're getting paid by the foundation to post stuff on here. 

Aren't you, or haven't you ever been, married  ? :)

 It is ALWAYS a choice, whether or not to follow another's will, rather than your own, and thus it BECOMES your will, to do so.  

 

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Mr Walker
5 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

I used to think like you. A lot. 

Then I married this Irish Catholic woman.

She showed me what nice is.

She told me (grabbing me where I have a handle) "You want nice? I'll give you NICE!" :angry:

 

 

Oh so that is how she bends you to her will rather than your will,  Will? 

There are a lot of word plays that come to mind, but i will forgo them. :) 

Edited by Mr Walker
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Mr Walker
4 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

God is non-duality in Christianity so how does God even have a will? It is not an entity and therefore doesnt have the properties, qualities, desires, motivations, or needs, of entities. Its a state where everything is one instead. God or non-duality or one or oneness or whatever you want to call it is simply that state from which the whole of existence has come into being from. Nothing more, nothing less.

You have total freedom within the restrictions of what is possible in this universe and as a human being. Enjoy the full range of pleasures that are available but do so responsibility so as not to cause suffering to others. There is no other purpose or anything you can do.

That is an odd definition of god. I've never even heard it before.

The Anglican"Lord's prayer"  contains the words "your will be done on earth as it i in heaven'"

  Which assumes god has a very specific will and intent 

However i agree. We all have total free will 

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Mr Walker
4 hours ago, Podo said:

One would need to first prove that god exists, then figure out what it wanted. Neither of those things have happened.

Oh dear . That must be frustrating for you.

Have you tried emptying your heart and mind of your own will, and asking god to step in  ?  :)

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Trenix
8 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

Doing God's will (the will of the universe) does not take anything away from a person's free will. It only adds to it.

 

 

Free will doesn't exist, it's not mentioned even once within the bible.

/me drops mic.

Edited by Trenix

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

Taking a different angle on this then God creates us as a spiritual being with total freedom.

We are supposed to enjoy all the pleasures of that total freedom to learn what good and evil are. If all we do in life is good we only really learn what evil is. If all we do in life is evil we only really learn what good is. We are supposed to gain wisdom of both and that can only be done by enjoying the full range of good and evil pleasures on offer. The universe we are born into and the human form we are born as limit that freedom. Society does too. Therefore within the limited freedoms we have to work with we should seek wisdom of what is good and evil. May I suggest reading the King Solomon stuff in your Bible.

True but one doesn't have to try out evil to learn to only do good.

Life literature and you tube are filled with examples of the consequences of different behaviours.

A  wise man learns from the mistakes of others, rather than his own. :) 

(Old jungle saying) 

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psyche101
2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Oh dear . That must be frustrating for you.

Have you tried emptying your heart and mind of your own will, and asking god to step in  ?  :)

How is that not self delusion? 

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Will Due
2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

That is an odd definition of god. I've never even heard it before.

The Anglican"Lord's prayer"  contains the words "your will be done on earth as it i in heaven'"

  Which assumes god has a very specific will and intent 

However i agree. We all have total free will 

 

Yeah, "your will be done on earth as it is in heaven"

Look at what is being said. 

Heaven is a place where God's will is done. 

On earth, in order for his "kingdom" to come, all that has to happen is for people to do his will.

 

 

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

To get the correct interpretation of what is written in the Bible then you have to study mysticism.

If you dont then what you read is something else entirely. Kabballah, Sufism, Gnosticism, are all quite similar. What the Bible is actually communicating to you remains hidden until you have been taught how to read it. Your purpose in life is to gain wisdom of good and evil so you can become like God. Your life experiences as you seek that wisdom teach you that ego is evil and altruism is good. So you overcome your ego and relate to everything else as if you were all one instead.

There is nothing secret about that.  It is clearly outlined in the bible in many passages Eg "god made us in the image of god"  

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psyche101
1 minute ago, Will Due said:

 

Yeah, "your will be done on earth as it is in heaven"

Look at what is being said. 

Heaven is a place where God's will is done. 

On earth, in order for his "kingdom" to come, all that has to happen is for people to do his will.

 

 

This is the God of the OT being referred to. His will is dismissed by many for their interpretations of what his son allegedly said. Don't you do exactly that? 

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, psyche101 said:

There isn't Will. There is evidence that the human construct of a creator is completely wrong. Your personal evidence is what you want it to be. It's not valid in the real world. 

There's no handbook for life. People get by how they can. Your preaching strikes me as immature. 

Your describing yourself Will. You refuse to understand how discovery and observation offered better answers than making crap up and pretending its real. 

There's just no good reason to accept that the idea of God is valid. Your just convincing yourself that such exists be refusing to grow in knowledge and as a person. You're stuck in a religious rut. 

This doesn't work for around 90 % of humans Not surprising as we are evolved cognitively to be believers, and to construct answers to our own questions. 

The identity/sense of self  of a human being is 99% spiritual, (ie exists in the mind) and only about 1% material (ie our body)

Thus we must construct spiritual answers to meet our spiritual/psychological needs. 

Materialism doesn't do the job, and,  by itself, leaves people unfulfilled, unhappy, and lacking in identity and purpose. 

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Habitat

About the only thing that can accurately be said about God, imo,  is that little or nothing can be said, accurately, about God. If you accept that "god" exists beyond mental constructs of same.

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Do you think preaching constantly, and making stuff up is actually right? 

Because I would beg to differ. I don't think your approach to the subject is right at all. Its very wrong. 

Maybe that is because you badly don't want to hear what Will is saying. 

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Will

I agree, it's a shame you seem to have fallen so quickly back into your old format. 

That's exactly what you are doing. 

You are pretending that you know a god exists 

You are pretending that you know his will

You are pretending that the universe has a centre and all observation to the contrary is wrong

You have even been arguing in favour of the Atlantis myth being real! 

You are pretending you know Will. Problem is we know better thanks to the efforts of our finest minds and great pioneers. 

There are things we do know. There's no reason to think that it is all wrong or will be completely rewritten. That doesn't mean we know everything but it also doesnt support the God idea, or indicate what we do know is wrong. 

The rut you are in is the one trodden by the above actions that have hobbled you from accepting and understanding modern discoveries that refute your personal musings. You can't ever grow like that Will, but you're saying that growth is the key. Your posting is contradictory. 

You think it is pretending because you refuse to accept that, for Will, god may be real and communicative.

 

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psyche101
3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

This doesn't work for around 90 % of humans Not surprising as we are evolved cognitively to be believers, and to construct answers to our own questions. 

And how is convincing yourself with no benchmark any more than self delusion? 

We are influenced to be believers. It's not a natural state remember? 

Religious people are NOT ‘born believers’, landmark study reveals

Children are raised as Christian Muslim or other by cultural influences. That's not a natural conclusion. With this level of indoctrination accepted as part of society, we are not born believers, but are born denied of free will. 

3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

The identity/sense of self  of a human being is 99% spiritual, (ie exists in the mind) and only about 1% material (ie our body)

Thus we must construct spiritual answers to meet our spiritual/psychological needs. 

We must do no such thing. Atheists do fine without that cultural I fluence. It's a flaw in our cultures, not a need. 

3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Materialism doesn't do the job, and,  by itself, leaves people unfulfilled, unhappy, and lacking in identity and purpose. 

Again, atheists directly refute that claim. People who self delude themselves think others need something that they really don't. That's why religious perceptions waver, people have different needs outlooks and goals. 

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Will Due
18 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

This is the God of the OT being referred to. His will is dismissed by many for their interpretations of what his son allegedly said. Don't you do exactly that? 

 

The OT? 

Jesus originated the Lord's prayer. 

When he said that Heaven is a place where God's will is done, obviously he means it gets done there VOLUNTARILY as a free will choice.

That's quite a privilege. 

If the main thing that separates us here on the good earth is bound up in the doing of God's will, or at least the honest desire to do such, confusion be damned, then it's all very simple and good.

Because doing God's will, is also something that can be done unconsciously. Given the right attitude. 

In my opinion. 

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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Mr Walker
2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

The religious support you regularly propose is an attack on logic and common sense. Is that a sin? I don't know, but I know bad information should be challenged. 

I'm not doing what seems right Will. Observation, prediction and repetition proves the information is right. You can't point at a fictional centre of the universe  but I can tell you where to find the centre of our glalxy, what time the sun will rise and where to look in the sky to see the other planets of our solar system. 

That all is 'right' Will, and it's all easily confirmed. That means it is 'actually right' . If you could have supported your statements then they would be actually right. You cannot  and the information provided which is 'actually right' refutes the personal ideas you preach. 

"There is no centre to the expansion of the universe"  is not the same as, "There is no centre to the universe"

Depending on how you  define centre, every physical thing has one, even if it is only the centre of mass 

This question arose because so many only consider the perception from one location At ANY location it appears you are near the centre of the universe  because the space around oyu and the objects init are expanding and getting further apart  However, while expanding, the universe has a definite volume. It might even begin to contract one day.

The universe probably DOES have a centre.  We just cannot know from our present perspective and location with our current technologies.  

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psyche101
9 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Maybe that is because you badly don't want to hear what Will is saying. 

That's ridiculous though. What will is saying is repeated ad nauseum. It's heard and rejected on its flimsy and incorrect claims. Will is saying there is a centre of the universe, where is it when it doesn't exist? I hear that claim loud and clear, and it's BS. 

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psyche101
10 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

You think it is pretending because you refuse to accept that, for Will, god may be real and communicative.

No, I know its pretending and I can consider that despite the mountains of inaccuracies illustrated that he still thinks there's a god and that he has some connections to it. People believe they are Napoleon and believe that's true, or even jesus. Its still pretending though, self delusion. 

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Stubbly_Dooright
5 hours ago, Will Due said:
5 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

You’re the one that sees the pretention not me. I Have no interest in claiming pretense in   others. So, I have no reason to say you are. 

I was asking why you have reason for saying others are. Like I asked, did you take a poll?

 

Stubbly, have you ever pretended?

Only when my kids were young and that was when I would play with them. Other than that, no. 

Why should I?

 I feel you’re not answering my question. A simple question. Your point is about how people pretend not to  believe or see evidences of God. If you’re stating people pretend  show why you know that? Whether I pretend or not has nothing to do with you answering the question of how you think others pretend. 

 Because frankly, that’s a bold accusation to make about others. 

And, thinking people pretend they don’t see the ‘evidence ‘ seems like childish behavior for them. I think the truth here is, Will, is there isn’t objective evidence to show. (Or you would have shown it by now)

 

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psyche101
4 minutes ago, Will Due said:

The OT? 

Yes. 

4 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Jesus originated the Lord's prayer. 

About his alleged father, the god of the OT. 

4 minutes ago, Will Due said:

When he said that Heaven is a place where God's will is done, obviously he means it gets done there VOLUNTARILY as a gree will choice.

If Lucifer is an example, there's no choice is there? Do what God says or suffer consequences. 

4 minutes ago, Will Due said:

That's quite a privilege. 

I don't see it that way. I doubt Lucifer does too. 

4 minutes ago, Will Due said:

If the main thing that separates us here on the good earth is bound up in the doing of God's will, or at least the honest desire to do such, confusion be damned, then it's all very simple and good.

Because doing God's will, is also something that can be done unconsciously. Given the right attitude. 

In my opinion. 

Then why do people who do God's will have to rely on faith? 

God is God not jesus you know. He's the guy with the smiting, incest and genocide. Is that the will we are supposed to be grateful for? 

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Will Due
2 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Only when my kids were young and that was when I would play with them. Other than that, no. 

Why should I?

 I feel you’re not answering my question. A simple question. Your point is about how people pretend not to  believe or see evidences of God. If you’re stating people pretend  show why you know that? Whether I pretend or not has nothing to do with you answering the question of how you think others pretend. 

 Because frankly, that’s a bold accusation to make about others. 

And, thinking people pretend they don’t see the ‘evidence ‘ seems like childish behavior for them. I think the truth here is, Will, is there isn’t objective evidence to show. (Or you would have shown it by now)

 

 

The evidence exists in the experiences brought on because of the faith decision to believe.

Nothing else is valid.

 

 

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Mr Walker
35 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

And how is convincing yourself with no benchmark any more than self delusion? 

We are influenced to be believers. It's not a natural state remember? 

Religious people are NOT ‘born believers’, landmark study reveals

Children are raised as Christian Muslim or other by cultural influences. That's not a natural conclusion. With this level of indoctrination accepted as part of society, we are not born believers, but are born denied of free will. 

We must do no such thing. Atheists do fine without that cultural I fluence. It's a flaw in our cultures, not a need. 

Again, atheists directly refute that claim. People who self delude themselves think others need something that they really don't. That's why religious perceptions waver, people have different needs outlooks and goals. 

No it IS a "natural state"  to be a believer( if you believe in evolution)

Evolution programmes us to believe

Nothing wrong with delusion if it serves a very useful purpose' It is not the  existence of god, but belief in the existence of god, which empowers and heals humans, and gives them courage and hope to keep living through hard times.  

The evidences are overwhelming. We had this discussion before.

BELIEF is universal in young  human children The particular shape of a belief ( ie a religion) Is formed by parents /society etc  But raised by robots who never mention god or beliefs,  a human child will always evolve its own belief system  The nature of its mind compels it to. 

And education is not indoctrination. Every child who becomes an adult has choices  Take you for example  :) 

That "must"  was a cognitive imperative The nature of our self aware cognition means we construct questions to which we have no answers.

But we NEED answers; to be safe, content, and happy.

So we construct our own answers to our own questions.

If we do not, we are not having our most basic needs met, and thus can never be  totally complete, or happy, or fulfilled.   

 

Ps i didnt want to redebate the study you used 

It simply says this 

 

"Instead it is now thought that factors including upbringing and socio-cultural processes are more likely to influence whether a person is a religious believer." 

 

“The available sociological and historical data show that what we believe in is mainly based on social and educational factors, and not on cognitive styles, such as intuitive/analytical thinking.

“Religious belief is most likely rooted in culture rather than in some primitive gut intuition.”

And i agree that our religions are determined by upbringing.

However there is no scientific argument that our cognitive processes are not evolved to make us believers 

 

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129528196

/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mind-blender/201404/the-evolution-faith

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/02/27/a-scientists-new-theory-religion-was-key-to-humans-social-evolution/?utm_term=.f3e4d1ee2558

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-human-beast/201704/why-religion-evolved

 

The stress theory of religion is well illustrated by Malinowski's research on protective rituals performed by Trobriand Islanders before going fishing (3). These rituals were performed only before venturing into rough waters outside the reefs, and never before fishing in the calm waters of the lagoon.

Research shows that religious rituals (and secular meditation) reduce physiological arousal that is thought to provide health benefits such as reduced blood pressure (4). The magnitude of any such health benefit is a matter of ongoing controversy with different studies showing benefits that range from very large to nothing (5,6).

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16725-theory-of-mind-could-help-explain-belief-in-god/

 

Once we had evolved the necessary brain architecture, we could “do” religion, brain scans indicate.

The research shows that, to interpret a god’s intentions and feelings, we rely mainly on the same recently evolved brain regions that divine the feelings and intentions of other people.

“We’re interested to find where in the brain belief systems are represented, particularly those that appear uniquely human,” says lead researcher, Jordan Grafman of the US National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke in Bethesda, Maryland.

The researchers found that such beliefs “light up” the areas of our brain which have evolved most recently, such as those involved in imagination, memory and “theory of mind” – the recognition that other people and living things can have their own thoughts and intentions.

“They don’t tell us about the existence of a higher order power like God,” says Grafman. “They only address how the mind and brain work in tandem to allow us to have belief systems that guide our everyday actions.”

 

Edited by Mr Walker

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