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Doing God's will.


Will Due

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A priceless little gem ... hitting all the right notes carrying the right chords
 

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[00.09:04]

Edited by third_eye
something sumpthang
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31 minutes ago, Habitat said:

What writings strikes a chord with one person, will fail to enthuse another. There are  little gems to be found in unexpected places, and no doubt, amongst much dross ! If it does not produce a quickening in oneself, why read it, this is the thrill of discovering another has had similar intuitions that already existed in ourselves, albeit not always entirely consciously.

You know 8tee is well versed in Jung. You should start a thread. It would be fun to read.

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Just now, Sherapy said:

You know 8tee is well versed in Jung. You should start a thread. It would be fun to read.

He has no doubt delved deeper into Jung  than I, but I think he (Jung) represents a great bridge, perhaps the only great bridge, between "sensible" logic, and the more "woo-like". He was a man at home in both realms. 

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3 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Good, I fell last week, tripped over Zenny's toy. Luckily, I landed on my butt. I am glad you are good. Thank goodness you are so physically active!

Geez, all I hear in my line of work is do not break your leg in your fifties, apparently it is very hard to recover from in middle age.  

Depends on your health. I broke both an arm and a leg in my fifties. Interesting experience, but I can't recommend it.

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On ‎9‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 4:29 AM, Trenix said:

Welcome to a existence that's not a slave to time. I can't explain everything to you, but what I can say is that I believe there is quite a lot beyond our own human senses. To think otherwise, is honestly childish. Some animals have difference senses than humans, so why would someone not believe that there is more to existence than we know? To me, our existence cannot be explained, it doesn't make sense.

You can't explain anything.

"Instead of answering your question, I'm going to hand wave by talking about animals and their senses.."

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5 hours ago, Habitat said:

Judging by the legions of the aged stuck away in nursing homes, and by some reports, 80% are medicated so as not to be a "problem", where only 20% are really clinically indicated for such meds, we might assume that being a good parent is not always rewarded, in the sunset years. If you fret about life being unfair, you will always find plentiful material !

I don't judge others, but could never have allowed that to happen to our (my wife's and my) parents They loved and raised us at considerable sacrifice to themselves; and love, duty, and morality required us to care for them if they required it and we were capable of doing so (ie fit and competent enough) .  

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1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

I don't judge others, but could never have allowed that to happen to our (my wife's and my) parents They loved and raised us at considerable sacrifice to themselves; and love, duty, and morality required us to care for them if they required it and we were capable of doing so (ie fit and competent enough) .  

Certainly the southern Europeans seem to do a better job of keeping the elders within the bosom of the family, I dare say there are many people in old age homes, that rarely see the family.

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5 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I really wasn't referring to you, I was thinking out loud in response to 8 bits.

I work in the Alzheimer's Dementia care community and our focus is quality and dignity of life.

I personally am focused on quality of life as opposed to putting my eggs in the faith basket.  

Not personal to you.

No offense to you, but it doesn't really matter on childrearing as you didn't have kids of your own. you have an opinion and you are entitled to it. As a foster parent, if you were and I take your word on it that you were, you certainly couldn't use corporal punishment even if you wanted too.

So it is moot. 

Of course, you will take this as a diss, but it is not I am only saying it, in the sense, that my parenting actually mattered in real time to the 3 boys I raised. 

Actually we could have, but chose not to.  there remain  no laws against it in Australia  and certainly were none last century.

  Our kids were already damaged, and required love and firm parenting, with strict boundaries.   They had  often been exposed to enough violence without adding to it  The y could leave any time but stayed because they were loved and protected 

lol our parenting mattered and still matters. We still have close contact with the youngest two, now  in their early twenties who each have children of their own and still require financial and  emotional support It is interesting that we are the only adults they trust and turn to for help. Their relationships with their real families remain totally dysfunctional and highly emotional 

I accept your word that you were not speaking about me,  although you have recently said very similar things about my health

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8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I NEVER feared my parents.

Corporal punishment was used as an effective means of reminding us of the rules, the purpose of the rules and the consequences of breaking  them.

 It was done in love, and always with explanation and  understanding.

In all my life i never saw my parents  angry or out of control of their behaviours (it helped that the y never drank much)

We KNEW the rules and the reasons for them and indeed we could talk our way out of punishment if our behaviour could be justified

With the exception of my wife, i have never loved or respected any human being as much as i did my parents, and all my siblings feel much the same We kept in close physical and emotional contact with them all their lives.

 

That's a load of bollox. 

Did you enjoy pain, do you still enjoy it? 

Edited by danydandan
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5 hours ago, eight bits said:

As has come up in other contexts, I can optimize only one figure of merit, and if there are two or more goals that aren't perfectly consonant, then I must compromise among them. There are several ways to do that, but I can't optimize plural goals simultaneously. You've expressed doubt about the principle in the past. Accept it as a personal limitation of all of us who aren't you.

I'd like to live a long time in good health, and I'd also like to do some things during my life that conflict with that. I drink some, I like a cigar occasionally, but there are other things that aren't of religious interest. I fell hard on the ice yesterday, no biggie, but I like living in New England where there is ice every winter and I like being outdoors every day where that ice is underfoot. I like dogs, but I've been bitten badly in the past, and I'm currently working with a dog who's bitten his owner four times... life = risk + reward.

So, no, Mr Walker, I am not suicidal, not miserable, and I wager that my mental wellness is almost competitive with your own. In any case, the green pill analogy's shortcomings have already been discussed. The costs of religiosity are high, and I don't have the beliefs anyway (chalk up my inability to choose that away as another personal failing of the not-you portion of the species).

I should have pointed out that the you was generic.

The point is tha t mentally depressed or unwell people  often  cannot make  rational  decisions and this fact is recognised in law

Often depressed and suicidal people  honestly believe they would be better off dead, and without the pain of living, but this can be changed, once the y are made well again.  If they succeed then they never have that opportunity for a long and prosperous/happy life.   I've had several people thank me for saving their  lives or preventing them committing suicide who went onto live happy lives but resented being saved  at the time. (and I have lost one whom we could not save )

  For others it was easier, as counselling allowed them to visualise a better future, and physical support allowed them to get through the temporary disaster their lives had become.

ATM I am working with a young mother who has had one child taken from her  and is raising a second baby. Ive helped her learn how to deal with her  own emotions and self  control  so tha t she can get her first child back, but also to have hope and courage.  I also helped a second one cope with having her child taken at birth and getting it back.   Both attempted suicide as mid teens due to the nature of family relationships in their home  and we took them in and cared for them and supported them until the y could cope again   

I don't even understand  why you cant (for example using a form of mind mapping and analysis)  optimise many goals simultaneously, but I have my own blind spots and inabilities. 

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18 minutes ago, danydandan said:

That's a load of bollox. 

Did you enjoy pain, do you still enjoy it? 

I cant help it if  your  own life experiences and your parents  parenting makes you  incapable of understanding this 

No of course we didn't enjoy pain (but we felt a lot worse as the result of play activities quite often and honestly, deprivation of pleasures like going to the theatre or  watching tv in the evening was far more painful than being caned. 

Bit rough calling my childhood experiences bollox,  just because they are not yours 

I have a high pain tolerance but get no enjoyment from it  PAin is  increased by stress, fear, anxiety, etc We were disciplined  calmly  and with love and we KNEW that, so there was no fear nor resentment and no anger from  us.  We were only punished when we deserved it and broke well established rules   We did try strategies like taking the cane and burning it but dad had found an old cane cray pot and basically had an endless supply  None of us, otherwise, ever tried to escape  punishment or avoid it  

What specifically do you find hard to believe?

Our parents total love for us,  or the complete love and respect they learned from all of us for their entire lives because of what i consider  to be some of the best parenting i have even encountered ?

eg a father who worked two jobs to support the family, gave up smoking so as not to influence his children and went to night school for two years to learn the new mathematics so that he could help is with our homework I could go on for hours about the time and effort our parents spent in playing with us teaching us and  providing care and guidance.

We were read to every night from  birth and so  all learned to read while still 2 years old We were given games  of skill to improve our abilities to observe, think and remember,  plus purely fun games Egmy father left treasure maps for us to find which  took hours to decode decipher etc but led to a real treasure .  While there was little money, dad BUILT all sorts of toys including  model aeroplanes with engines and motor cars with pedals and push /pull mechanisms or restored old bikes etc to new condition.     No one in the family for 6 generations has ever been in trouble with the law or got divorced been unfaithful or  been violent or abusive. We had    a mother who loved and nurtured us, fed us well, and taught us all skills like cooking sewing and gardening 

You cannot resent or feel anger about justified punishments where the rules have been negotiated and talked through, and the punishments established well in advance  

Edited by Mr Walker
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5 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Sociopaths are born, not raised. Non corporal child-rearing only turns out well if the parents have the necessary skill. I see plenty of non corporal raised children who are absolute monsters because their parents either lacked the skill or the will to instill discipline in them, non violently.

That was my point to sherapy She had the skills and time, but even so it required her home schooling her boys so that she could have a monopoly on their values  education and training.

Most parents only get a few hours with their kids each day,  and that is often not enough for fancy methods of instilling lessons and self discipline,    but she had all day, every day. 

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5 hours ago, Habitat said:

Here in an awful swelter of a summer, probably the hottest ever, even the thought of ice, is comforting.

yup 48 degrees C last  fortnight, in the nearest coastal town, and  about the same here 

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3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

yup 48 degrees C last  fortnight, in the nearest coastal town, and  about the same here 

A relative of mine moved to South Australia from Queensland, saying he preferred a cooler climate.  Not sure what he thinks about that, this summer.

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20 minutes ago, Habitat said:

A relative of mine moved to South Australia from Queensland, saying he preferred a cooler climate.  Not sure what he thinks about that, this summer.

We moved about 40 ks inland when i retired, after living on the coast (and for much of that time  less than 100 metres from  the beach)  all our married life  it is a bit hotter here than there but on this day it was hot all over.

image.jpeg.e5b72eb847375e858374db1f22615947.jpegimage.jpeg.accaf9c95d664fafc564987ed6de2412.jpeg

 

The beach and old jetty in the town where i lived and worked 

41000686_2061605397191108_2259142502659391488_o.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_ht=scontent.fadl4-1.fna&oh=42436639477252c48ed2c89c4e91b558&oe=5CF0C750Now we live in this house next to the swimming pool.  :) Handy on hot days 

Edited by Mr Walker
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Just now, Mr Walker said:

We moved about 40 ks inland when i retired, after living on the coast (and for much of that time  less than 100 metres from  the beach)  all our married life  it is a bit hotter here than there but on this day it was hot all over.

image.jpeg.e5b72eb847375e858374db1f22615947.jpegimage.jpeg.accaf9c95d664fafc564987ed6de2412.jpeg

 

The beach and old jetty in the town where i lived and worked 

He went to Port Lincoln, which for the most part would be a mild climate.

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10 minutes ago, Habitat said:

He went to Port Lincoln, which for the most part would be a mild climate.

lol born and bred there.  Both my sisters, my brother, and many of my nieces and nephews still live there .

My dads family moved there around 1900 but my mums came earlier,  (round 1850) while my wife's ancestors arrived at Port Lincoln in 1836 after arriving in Adelaide  on the Buffalo the first colonist ship to South Australia.   

And yes it also was around that temp on that day  Small world, hey ? 

The photos in my post are of Tumby Bay, where I taught for 34 years. It is about 50 ks up the coast from  Lincoln  

Edited by Mr Walker
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8 hours ago, Trenix said:

Interesting, thought you atheists were smart and capable of dealing with a logical argument. Instead, you resulted to throwing logic right out of the window and instead became ill-mannered and insulting, pretty much animal-like as theists envision you as. Did you want to have a reasonable discussion or are you just wanted to push your god complex? Honestly, if you don't comprehend that there is more than your own human abilities and senses, then there is no discussion. Let me give you an example, just because a fish in a cave has no eyes, does not mean that colors don't exist. There is also evidence that animals can sense things that we cannot explain nor sense. Now have a good day, personally I feel sorry for people especially like you. It's not out of random of why people like yourself, seek to debunk religion and have passionate hatred toward it, me and you both know that.

Agree very much with the bolded, and think I'll leave it at that.

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On 2/14/2019 at 3:54 PM, Habitat said:

We cannot know, rationally, that which can't be understood rationally, and the riddle of existence has no conceivable rational explanation, even a world champion liar couldn't come up with one. It becomes the province of the irrational, literally, and to those firmly lodged in rational thought processes, indigestible,

The more I ponder this, the more I"m not really seeing what is so irrational or illogical about existence? That beyond 13.8 mya it stopped being explainable with general relativity? That only means we're ignorant. Not that the explanation has to be irrational.

I'm not trying to stir you up here, but isn't existence the only rational option, a 100% certainty (with no other possibility)? Given that there is no such thing as nothing?

What I see as irrational is the notion that there could ever be "nothing" (in the philosophical/colloquial sense). Obviously the very definition of nothing makes it impossible, doesn't it? I see this as probably a false dichotomy that is derived from the irrational nature of the human mind itself, but perhaps little to do with reality.

Edited by Horta
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2 minutes ago, Horta said:

The more I ponder this, the more I"m not really seeing what is so irrational or illogical about existence? That beyond 13.8 mya it stopped being explainable with general relativity? That only means we're ignorant.

I'm not trying to stir you up here, but isn't existence the only rational option, a 100% certainty (with no other possibility)? Given that there is no such thing as nothing?

What I see as utterly irrational is the notion that there could ever be "nothing" (in the philosophical/colloquial sense). Obviously the very definition of nothing makes it impossible, doesn't it? I see this as a false dichotomy that is probably irrational itself.

Who says "existence" is rational, or irrational ? It just is. But, unexplainable by any rational discussion.

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1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

That was my point to sherapy She had the skills and time, but even so it required her home schooling her boys so that she could have a monopoly on their values  education and training.

Most parents only get a few hours with their kids each day,  and that is often not enough for fancy methods of instilling lessons and self discipline,    but she had all day, every day. 

Same with my parents, they didn't know any other way except the traditional one. My mother's people were more native American and used very minimal physical discipline. If you were sick or hurt yourself and cried, you were comforted. If you cried because you didn't get your way in something, you were popped on the lips, smartly with their fingers. If you were bad, you had to fetch your own switch to have it swished between your legs. Both gave you sense that you were doing it to yourself, which of course, led to the independent conclusion that it was easily avoided by not doing it to yourself. My grandmother was a wise woman. My father's way was the traditional Scotch-Irish flogging and you darn well knew he was the author of your distress and you brought it on yourself. We learned not to be bad fairly quickly and were rarely punished. I must say my grandmother's method was more subtle and sparing and far more effective.  

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7 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Who says "existence" is rational, or irrational ? It just is. But, unexplainable by any rational discussion.

Fair enough and I take your point, but.....that only pertains to ignorance IMO, more so than something that has to have an explanation that is beyond ration or logic...

It really wasn't that long ago that there seemed no rational explanation for biology on this planet, and humans in particular. Now we have a reasonably good rational and logical explanation for the whole thing. 

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3 minutes ago, Horta said:

Fair enough and I take your point, but.....that only pertains to ignorance IMO, more so than something that has to have an explanation that is beyond ration or logic...

It really wasn't that long ago that there seemed no rational explanation for biology on this planet, and humans in particular. Now we have a reasonably good rational and logical explanation for the whole thing. 

That is explained rationally. By the relationship of elements within a system.  No-one can even speculate how there is a system, it can't be done by looking at the relationships within the system, that system being the accessible universe. This is the reason creation myths have arisen, not to any effect, of course, but the mind does have a way of filling in blanks with something, anything !

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3 hours ago, Habitat said:

That is explained rationally. By the relationship of elements within a system.  No-one can even speculate how there is a system, it can't be done by looking at the relationships within the system, that system being the accessible universe. This is the reason creation myths have arisen, not to any effect, of course, but the mind does have a way of filling in blanks with something, anything !

That's just back to..."relativity doesn't make sense here, so it must be god". The same thing Newton (wrongly) did when he reached his limit. It's simply the old "god of the gaps" again. 

Plenty of people have speculated on how there is a system, Krauss did it quite plausibly and logically by looking at the relationships within the system. So that would seem untrue.

To remind you of what you originally posted...You did say the "riddle of existence" has no possible rational explanation and therefore requires an irrational one. Firstly the "riddle of existence" is a bit vague, but assuming you mean the observable universe...unless you do understand the "riddle of existence" yourself, how could you possibly know that?

All that we really do know is that the earlier universe was denser and hotter, and that general relativity breaks down at a certain point. That doesn't necessarily mean it can never be understood rationally.

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We cannot know, rationally, that which can't be understood rationally, and the riddle of existence has no conceivable rational explanation, even a world champion liar couldn't come up with one. It becomes the province of the irrational, literally, and to those firmly lodged in rational thought processes, indigestible,

 

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21 hours ago, Guyver said:

I’m sorry to hear that, but I do understand it.  It’s probably not pleasant to read a thread where your beliefs are criticized or challenged.  It may be that you believe God wrote or inspired the bible, and you may believe that the God of the Jews is the real God, and you don’t wish to argue the point with nonbelievers.  It’s much easier to just discuss these things with people who believe just as you do.  I’m guessing.

You're  guessing is wrong about me.  Faith is a very first foundation of spiritual principle. What you need to understand is  that criticism/mockery  only confirms  the things that Yeshua/Jesus  said  would occur  .  I just don't see the point right now  in having a conversation with you about faith in God/YHWH. 

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