Will Due Posted April 26, 2019 Author #3876 Share Posted April 26, 2019 6 minutes ago, Horta said: Yes, that's what I'm saying. The only option for you to make a freely willed choice, requires contra-causal will. If you "could have chosen otherwise" for any given state of the universe. That's because the brain states that are part of that given state of the universe (that led to your choice), would be identical no matter how many times it is replayed. So you need some principle that allows different choices from the exact same brain states. Can't happen. There's an interesting aspect to this discussion about free will. As usual, there seems to be an elephant in the room. The proverbial large looming thing that's being heartedly avoided. But not without great hair splitting effort. The power to choose is limited, that's for sure, but there's no denying, there exists a more than adequate range wherein to make real choices. At the top of this pyramid piled up of things to choose, sits the most important choice of all, which is often avoided as long as possible. And not without reason, but avoided nonetheless. Sometimes, it's avoided with lengthy Rube Goldberg like machinations of mental pretzel making gymnastics doing nothing, but consuming valuable time. But there still, is the elephant. Swinging his trunk and trumpeting his presence, while at the apex of things human remains the unquestionable question: Shall I make a gift to God, dedication of the free will to the doing of the will of God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horta Posted April 26, 2019 #3877 Share Posted April 26, 2019 12 minutes ago, Will Due said: There's an interesting aspect to this discussion about free will. As usual, there seems to be an elephant in the room. The proverbial large looming thing that's being heartedly avoided. But not without great hair splitting effort. The power to choose is limited, that's for sure, but there's no denying, there exists a more than adequate range wherein to make real choices. At the top of this pyramid piled up of things to choose, sits the most important choice of all, which is often avoided as long as possible. And not without reason, but avoided nonetheless. Sometimes, it's avoided with lengthy Rube Goldberg like machinations of mental pretzel making gymnastics doing nothing, but consuming valuable time. But there still, is the elephant. Swinging his trunk and trumpeting his presence, while at the apex of things human remains the unquestionable question: Shall I make a gift to God, dedication of the free will to the doing of the will of God? I disagree Will. It's black and white and about as subtle as a sledgehammer. There is no principle we have found so far in the universe, that allows for the type of free will you propose. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horta Posted April 26, 2019 #3878 Share Posted April 26, 2019 ps. There is also no available logic which supports the claim either. It seems to fail on every level. The best way I have heard the dilemna explained is... "All logic is against free will, all experience is for it." I'll go with logic and science on this one. Humans are too easily deluded. If you really give it enough thought and observation, you'll see that "experience" really doesn't support it either. It's fair enough if you still wish to believe in it personally, or claim it relies on some paranormal process beyond observation and logic. That's a personal belief though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted April 26, 2019 Author #3879 Share Posted April 26, 2019 3 minutes ago, Horta said: There is no principle we have found so far in the universe, that allows for the type of free will you propose. Then by your choice about this, you have validated that in this universe, you have the power to choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted April 26, 2019 Author #3880 Share Posted April 26, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Horta said: ps. There is also no available logic which supports the claim either. It seems to fail on every level. The best way I have heard the dilemna explained is... "All logic is against free will, all experience is for it." I'll go with logic and science on this one. Humans are too easily deluded. If you really give it enough thought and observation, you'll see that "experience" really doesn't support it either. It's fair enough if you still wish to believe in it personally, or claim it relies on some paranormal process beyond observation and logic. That's a personal belief though. There is nothing paranormal involved in making a choice that's within your power to choose. Least of all is what you choose to dedicate your will to doing. And what you choose to do with the use of your mind. Edited April 26, 2019 by Will Due Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horta Posted April 26, 2019 #3881 Share Posted April 26, 2019 17 minutes ago, Will Due said: Then by your choice about this, you have validated that in this universe, you have the power to choose. Of course. But it can never be "freely willed" in the sense you propose. Unless you can think of something that allows for "could have chosen otherwise" in any particular situation, either logically or in principle? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted April 26, 2019 Author #3882 Share Posted April 26, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Horta said: Of course. But it can never be "freely willed" in the sense you propose. Unless you can think of something that allows for "could have chosen otherwise" in any particular situation, either logically or in principle? What color shirt are you wearing? Could you have chosen to wear a different shirt? It's baffling. That you want to make a case (for example) that you do not have a the power to choose which shirt to wear. Is that what you're making a case for? That you couldn't have chosen to wear a different shirt? It's as if you're trying to make a case that your not responsible for your choices. Edited April 26, 2019 by Will Due Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horta Posted April 26, 2019 #3883 Share Posted April 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Will Due said: What color shirt are you wearing? Could you have chosen to wear a different shirt? It's baffling. That you want to make a case (for example) that you do not have a the power to choose which shirt to wear. Is that what you're making a case for? That you couldn't have chosen to wear a different shirt? It's as if you're trying to make a case that your not responsible for your choices. I obviously have the power to choose a shirt to wear. There are causes behind such choice though, they don't really arrive out of thin air. They do have a causal chain leading up to them that we're usually unaware of. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted April 26, 2019 Author #3884 Share Posted April 26, 2019 Just now, Horta said: I obviously have the power to choose a shirt to wear. There are causes behind such choice though, they don't really arrive out of thin air. They do have a causal chain leading up to them that we're usually unaware of. So you don't have anything to do with what precedes the moment you choose what shirt to wear? Is that what you're saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horta Posted April 26, 2019 #3885 Share Posted April 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Will Due said: So you don't have anything to do with what precedes the moment you choose what shirt to wear? Is that what you're saying? More like the billions of years before it. When the thought pops into our head of what type and color shirt we are going to wear, where do you think it comes from Will? You realise that for you to create that thought, you would need to know what the thought was before you created it? If it just pops into our head from somewhere, how can we claim that we "freely willed" it? The whole idea is illogical, despite the intuitive feeling (illusion IMO) it makes no sense. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted April 26, 2019 Author #3886 Share Posted April 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Horta said: More like the billions of years before it. When the thought pops into our head of what type and color shirt we are going to wear, where do you think it comes from Will? You realise that for you to create that thought, you would need to know what the thought was before you created it? If it just pops into our head from somewhere, how can we claim that we "freely willed" it? The whole idea is illogical, despite the intuitive feeling (illusion IMO) it makes no sense. Holy crap. You're right. It makes no sense to choose a shirt to wear. Tomorrow I'm going shirtless. Screw a billion years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horta Posted April 26, 2019 #3887 Share Posted April 26, 2019 Just now, Will Due said: Holy crap. You're right. It makes no sense to choose a shirt to wear. Tomorrow I'm going shirtless. Screw a billion years! That's silly. You will choose a shirt (unless it's really hot), but you will have no inkling of most of the causes that make you do this. Instead you will (wrongly) credit your conscious self for having made a freely willed decision. Despite knowing that if that decision were replayed endlessly with all things being equal, you could never have chosen differently. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted April 26, 2019 Author #3888 Share Posted April 26, 2019 3 minutes ago, Horta said: That's silly. You will choose a shirt (unless it's really hot), but you will have no inkling of most of the causes that make you do this. Instead you will (wrongly) credit your conscious self for having made a freely willed decision. Despite knowing that if that decision were replayed endlessly with all things being equal, you could never have chosen differently. I only own one shirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horta Posted April 26, 2019 #3889 Share Posted April 26, 2019 2 minutes ago, Will Due said: I only own one shirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkmoonlady Posted April 26, 2019 #3890 Share Posted April 26, 2019 (edited) Not to interrupt your important free will shirt choice debate but free will doesn't exist. It's a concept and an easily shot down concept. Ok you say we have free will. Free will gives us choices. How many? I'm guessing the OP is going to say limitless and then go off on a tangent. Nope very limited. We are always subject to confines, limits, boundaries. Free will isn't free. I can't become a fish no matter how much time I spend swimming. I can't fly, can't stop breathing oxygen and breath say methane instead. Nope confines of being human prevent me, limits of technology whatever it's not happening. For the choices we do have everyone of them is a 50/50 split. I could stay home tomorrow or leave the house. Get out of bed or not. Die in my sleep or live another day. Those are generalized but they represent that for whatever choice we make, we lose the ability to go back and based on the choice made are limited as future choices because time moved forward and will eventually end. Only goes one direction and we are in it. You can't choose to not move forward in time. Now if we were a god type being maybe, maybe not, we haven't seen or met one so we can only guess and the evidence isn't there for one. Edited April 26, 2019 by darkmoonlady 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted April 26, 2019 #3891 Share Posted April 26, 2019 https://humanhow.com/en/list-of-cognitive-biases-with-examples/ Figure this thread needs this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted April 26, 2019 Author #3892 Share Posted April 26, 2019 3 hours ago, darkmoonlady said: Not to interrupt your important free will shirt choice debate but free will doesn't exist. It's a concept and an easily shot down concept. Ok you say we have free will. Free will gives us choices. How many? I'm guessing the OP is going to say limitless and then go off on a tangent. Nope very limited. We are always subject to confines, limits, boundaries. Free will isn't free. I can't become a fish no matter how much time I spend swimming. I can't fly, can't stop breathing oxygen and breath say methane instead. Nope confines of being human prevent me, limits of technology whatever it's not happening. For the choices we do have everyone of them is a 50/50 split. I could stay home tomorrow or leave the house. Get out of bed or not. Die in my sleep or live another day. Those are generalized but they represent that for whatever choice we make, we lose the ability to go back and based on the choice made are limited as future choices because time moved forward and will eventually end. Only goes one direction and we are in it. You can't choose to not move forward in time. Now if we were a god type being maybe, maybe not, we haven't seen or met one so we can only guess and the evidence isn't there for one. Repeatedly, over and over again, I have stated that our free will is limited. But free enough to choose to make a gift to God, dedication of the free will to the doing of his will. Spare me the usual comments please (if you don't mind) about God and the questions about his existence but rather, would you be honest and admit that it's within the range of your freedom to choose to dedicate your will to something? Go ahead and name your favorite issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted April 26, 2019 Author #3893 Share Posted April 26, 2019 (edited) Oops Edited April 26, 2019 by Will Due Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkmoonlady Posted April 27, 2019 #3894 Share Posted April 27, 2019 11 hours ago, Will Due said: Repeatedly, over and over again, I have stated that our free will is limited. But free enough to choose to make a gift to God, dedication of the free will to the doing of his will. Spare me the usual comments please (if you don't mind) about God and the questions about his existence but rather, would you be honest and admit that it's within the range of your freedom to choose to dedicate your will to something? Go ahead and name your favorite issue. How do you know its Gods will and not say schizophrenia? Even if God exists why you? God being God wouldn't need you, doesn't need you to act on his behalf and assuming he needs you is the height of hubris. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted April 27, 2019 Author #3895 Share Posted April 27, 2019 21 minutes ago, darkmoonlady said: How do you know its Gods will and not say schizophrenia? Even if God exists why you? God being God wouldn't need you, doesn't need you to act on his behalf and assuming he needs you is the height of hubris. You said that you don't believe there's such a thing as free will (the power to choose) right? So I asked you if it's within the range of your freedom to choose to dedicate your will to something? Obviously, you do, because by your own words, you've indicated that you've dedicated your will to the cause of arguing, that you don't have the free will power to dedicate yourself to something. Oh well. You're probably not schizophrenic. Just a hypocrite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlitterRose Posted April 27, 2019 #3896 Share Posted April 27, 2019 35 minutes ago, darkmoonlady said: How do you know its Gods will and not say schizophrenia? Even if God exists why you? God being God wouldn't need you, doesn't need you to act on his behalf and assuming he needs you is the height of hubris. Why is it God's will that some people have schizophrenia? That seems like an appropriate question. Ah well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted April 27, 2019 Author #3897 Share Posted April 27, 2019 17 minutes ago, GlitterRose said: Why is it God's will that some people have schizophrenia? Maybe it's not God's will that people have schizophrenia. Maybe schizophrenia is what happens when a person uses their free will (the power to choose) to dedicate their will to always and knowingly, resist the doing of God's will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlitterRose Posted April 27, 2019 #3898 Share Posted April 27, 2019 Just now, Will Due said: Maybe it's not God's will that people have schizophrenia. Maybe schizophrenia is what happens when a person uses their free will (the power to choose) to dedicate their will to always and knowingly, resist the doing of God's will. Schizophrenia is a psychiatric condition. So no. And if God makes us all, then our imperfections would be included in that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkmoonlady Posted April 27, 2019 #3899 Share Posted April 27, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Will Due said: You said that you don't believe there's such a thing as free will (the power to choose) right? So I asked you if it's within the range of your freedom to choose to dedicate your will to something? Obviously, you do, because by your own words, you've indicated that you've dedicated your will to the cause of arguing, that you don't have the free will power to dedicate yourself to something. Oh well. You're probably not schizophrenic. Just a hypocrite. Me being able to ask you questions about your statements regarding god and free will make it seem as though you have your ideas of free will, ask others to question it but get irritated if our ideas don't fall in line with yours. So if anyone has an issue it's you. Edited April 27, 2019 by darkmoonlady 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodie.Lynne Posted April 27, 2019 #3900 Share Posted April 27, 2019 1 hour ago, darkmoonlady said: How do you know its Gods will and not say schizophrenia? Even if God exists why you? God being God wouldn't need you, doesn't need you to act on his behalf and assuming he needs you is the height of hubris. Because he is an extra-extra special snowflake that god loves most of all. 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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