Will Due Posted March 9, 2019 #901 Share Posted March 9, 2019 55 minutes ago, Guyver said: God appearing to you in the flesh wouldn’t change your beliefs. Wow. That is truly amazing. Jesus (God) appeared in the flesh. Many who were set in their beliefs did not believe him. He did not represent what many believed by how he lived his life. This is still happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted March 9, 2019 #902 Share Posted March 9, 2019 3 hours ago, Guyver said: Would you want to live in a world where you don’t have the ability to choose your actions because some power greater than you like a god or the state will kill you the moment your actions are displeasing? Is that what you’re suggesting? If we are imagining worlds why not just make this abuse impossible? Make a world where the idea to purposely hurt kids or animals is not even a possible thought or action, there must be all kinds of things that no one has thought of in this reality already that we seem to persevere without and that still leave us with a lot of choices for our actions. There are already plenty of actions we cannot take, why would removing our ability to do bad things be any worse or damaging to our 'free will' than our current inability to teleport? 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted March 9, 2019 #903 Share Posted March 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Guyver said: God appearing to you in the flesh wouldn’t change your beliefs. Wow. That is truly amazing. I don't think that's the conclusion we can draw, although I'm confused a little about Ruby's choices there as they seem contradictory, I think there is at least one 'you believe that' missing. A god really appearing to someone in the flesh presupposes that it is a real god, and thus 'they could be lying' is no longer an option. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlookerofmayhem Posted March 9, 2019 #904 Share Posted March 9, 2019 13 hours ago, Mr Walker said: No it has NOT been scientifically so established. We don't have the technology or science to know what might happen to our consciousness after we die. IMO you are correct and it ceases to exist , UNLESS it is stored deliberately using technology , but that might be happening to all our consciousnesses right now. As far as I'm concerned, when the body dies and brain activity stops, there is no more consciousness. Unless I've missed the study that confirms that consciousness is separate from the physical body. I do agree that in the future there may be a way to "download" one's conscious. Until then all signs point to the fact that consciousness dies with the body. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted March 9, 2019 #905 Share Posted March 9, 2019 14 hours ago, Habitat said: police informants , who are frequently just civic-minded people seeking no reward for assisting police Not the ones I had. They were derelicts who didn't want me to bust them or beat the breaks out of them. As for "tipsters" . Only a small percentage are helpful. Many times tips are pure horse****. 4 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted March 9, 2019 #906 Share Posted March 9, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said: As far as I'm concerned, when the body dies and brain activity stops, there is no more consciousness. Unless I've missed the study that confirms that consciousness is separate from the physical body. I do agree that in the future there may be a way to "download" one's conscious. Until then all signs point to the fact that consciousness dies with the body. I have worked with Hospice and the “imminent” phase of dying is thought to include loss of consciousness. It tends to show itself in the patient as a coma like condition. I don’t begrudge anyone believing otherwise, as this is an intense experience for the living . I have been a caregiver 3 times for terminal patients and even under these circumstances this is by far the most harrowing experience I have been through. It is not easy and it’s effects are sobering. I confidantly conclude that conciousness ceases with life. Edited March 9, 2019 by Sherapy 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luca-RoseElsie-Raemom1921 Posted March 9, 2019 #907 Share Posted March 9, 2019 7 hours ago, Guyver said: Nope. They are not OK. They are allowed. I guess you can imagine a world like ours where abuses never occur? How would you control such a thing? Would you instantly kill all the evil people? Would you annhilate every person who ever makes a mistake or does something wrong? Would you want to live in a world where you don’t have the ability to choose your actions because some power greater than you like a god or the state will kill you the moment your actions are displeasing? Is that what you’re suggesting? I never once suggested that. You are simply trying to put words in my mouth. 5 hours ago, Guyver said: God appearing to you in the flesh wouldn’t change your beliefs. Wow. That is truly amazing. When did I state my beliefs? I asked a question, I have not once in this thread said do I or do I not believe in a God/Gods/higher power. Instead you have jumped to the conclusion of what I believe or do not believe. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luca-RoseElsie-Raemom1921 Posted March 9, 2019 #908 Share Posted March 9, 2019 4 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said: I don't think that's the conclusion we can draw, although I'm confused a little about Ruby's choices there as they seem contradictory, I think there is at least one 'you believe that' missing. A god really appearing to someone in the flesh presupposes that it is a real god, and thus 'they could be lying' is no longer an option. I was saying let say God/Gods/ an all powerful being appeared to you and they hav proof they are who they claim to be. Would this 1 make you have faith/belief in them or 2 it would change nothing for you. What made me think of it was a girl I knew, her dad used to say he would believe in God the day he came down and personally shook his hand. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted March 9, 2019 #909 Share Posted March 9, 2019 4 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said: If we are imagining worlds why not just make this abuse impossible? Make a world where the idea to purposely hurt kids or animals is not even a possible thought or action, there must be all kinds of things that no one has thought of in this reality already that we seem to persevere without and that still leave us with a lot of choices for our actions. There are already plenty of actions we cannot take, why would removing our ability to do bad things be any worse or damaging to our 'free will' than our current inability to teleport? So, God would make us more like machines than organic organisms then? IDK how I’d feel about that. I’d would take a lot more thought, for me anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted March 9, 2019 #910 Share Posted March 9, 2019 23 minutes ago, Ruby04 said: I was saying let say God/Gods/ an all powerful being appeared to you and they hav proof they are who they claim to be. Would this 1 make you have faith/belief in them or 2 it would change nothing for you. I guess my answer would be 3 - that we know gods then exists. With the way I use the words, if it is presupposed I have 'proof' they are gods then I would of course believe in them since I know they exist due to their proof, but I wouldn't have faith in them. Outside of the impact of discovering at the least a whole new class of being and what that does to our current state of knowledge, behavior-wise whatever would change if much for me would depend on if that god wants something and how much if at all he plans to mess around in our reality. 25 minutes ago, Ruby04 said: What made me think of it was a girl I knew, her dad used to say he would believe in God the day he came down and personally shook his hand. Ha, that would be a big improvement evidence-wise over what little there is for us to work with right now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted March 9, 2019 #911 Share Posted March 9, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said: There are already plenty of actions we cannot take, why would removing our ability to do bad things be any worse or damaging to our 'free will' than our current inability to teleport? Removing our ability to do bad things would also remove our ability to use our free will to turn a bad thing into something good. Apparently creating a perfect world isn't a problem for a perfect God. But creating an imperfect world which will evolve to become perfected because of the free will choices of its imperfect beings is much more challenging for God. And his cooperating children. Edited March 9, 2019 by Will Due Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted March 9, 2019 #912 Share Posted March 9, 2019 26 minutes ago, Guyver said: So, God would make us more like machines than organic organisms then? IDK how I’d feel about that. I’d would take a lot more thought, for me anyway. I don't think that necessarily follows either. We are machines in countless ways, we rely on that to live, I can be pretty lazy sometimes and would likely already be dead if the responsibility to keep my heart beating was relying on 'me' to keep it going. I guess by removing an option that I can do that might make me more like a machine but it seems like that would be mostly inconsequential since even without the ability to abuse we still have far more choices and actions we could take that we will never have time to. Not that I don't understand what you're getting at. I've been thinking about it from the perspective of a reality where we actually could teleport. If that reality had similar ills to what we have in this world then teleportation may drastically improve survivability and decrease suffering; countless people in accidents and wars die partly because they cannot get medical assistance in time, many crimes would be extremely difficult to pull off (although it might make others easier...), etc. Now think of what people would say in that reality, I'll paraphrase what you said earlier, 'would you want to live in a world where you cannot teleport, where god removes that ability?'. From their perspective the world without teleportation would be horrifying, the amount of blood and suffering so much greater than their reality, the impact of bad people's bad choices would have so much more negative impact. In other words, our reality. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted March 9, 2019 #913 Share Posted March 9, 2019 19 minutes ago, Will Due said: Removing our ability to do bad things would also remove our ability to use our free will to turn a bad thing into something good. I don't think your statement is fully correct, but regardless I would be happy to make that trade; the reason most things are bad is because people are greatly suffering or dying from it, that's a big sacrifice just so we can sometimes have some people turn it into good. I'll give up the good of someone overcoming a heroin addiction if it means getting rid of the other people suffering and dying from a heroin addiction. In a reality where they aren't needed, I'd gladly remove the ability to even imagine something like burn units and children's ICU depts, despite the good that goes on in both of those in our reality. We already have plenty of ways to turn bad things into something good even if we remove our ability to do bad things, lots of people suffer from things that aren't a result of anybody's choice or bad intent. Also, the way I see it 'people can't do bad things' isn't the same thing as 'people only do good things'; most of the things we do are pretty neutral (to invoke the deep moral alignment framework bestowed upon us by Dungeons & Dragons), there's lots of opportunities to turn those neutral things into good. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted March 9, 2019 #914 Share Posted March 9, 2019 19 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said: I don't think your statement is fully correct, but regardless I would be happy to make that trade; the reason most things are bad is because people are greatly suffering or dying from it, that's a big sacrifice just so we can sometimes have some people turn it into good. I'll give up the good of someone overcoming a heroin addiction if it means getting rid of the other people suffering and dying from a heroin addiction. In a reality where they aren't needed, I'd gladly remove the ability to even imagine something like burn units and children's ICU depts, despite the good that goes on in both of those in our reality. We already have plenty of ways to turn bad things into something good even if we remove our ability to do bad things, lots of people suffer from things that aren't a result of anybody's choice or bad intent. Also, the way I see it 'people can't do bad things' isn't the same thing as 'people only do good things'; most of the things we do are pretty neutral (to invoke the deep moral alignment framework bestowed upon us by Dungeons & Dragons), there's lots of opportunities to turn those neutral things into good. Are you upset because it's not a perfect world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luca-RoseElsie-Raemom1921 Posted March 10, 2019 #915 Share Posted March 10, 2019 10 minutes ago, Will Due said: Are you upset because it's not a perfect world? There could never be a perfect world, simply because your idea of perfect would differ to the next persons. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted March 10, 2019 #916 Share Posted March 10, 2019 8 hours ago, Sherapy said: Geez, have you ever heard of taking the rap for someone else? If you think that is the rule, rather than the rare exception, you really are deluded. Crims turn on one another like mongrel dogs in a crunch, and that is another aspect of human nature relied upon by police, and prosecutors to get a conviction. Meanwhile, in fantasyland, "noble" crims are taking the fall for their wonderful friends. And what kind of person would have someone else mouldering in jail, locked away for their own misdeeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted March 10, 2019 #917 Share Posted March 10, 2019 9 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said: Another reason why it's wise to be very skeptical of what you claim to 'know'. To your point, here's one of many reasons why skeptics have doubts about anecdotal evidence: https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-list-those-freed-death-row It might be wise for others to be sceptical, and I've never said otherwise, but madness for me to discount my own observations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted March 10, 2019 #918 Share Posted March 10, 2019 31 minutes ago, Habitat said: If you think that is the rule, rather than the rare exception, you really are deluded. Crims turn on one another like mongrel dogs in a crunch, and that is another aspect of human nature relied upon by police, and prosecutors to get a conviction. Meanwhile, in fantasyland, "noble" crims are taking the fall for their wonderful friends. And what kind of person would have someone else mouldering in jail, locked away for their own misdeeds. I never noticed that among the Bloods and Latin Kings. They all clam up. I was actually protected by the leader of the Trenton Bloods set. Do you have any experience in the criminal world? I went to highschool in Camden, New Jersey. During the 80's when it had the highest murder and crime rate in the First World. I was a cop who was sent to the gang max because I was on the "dangerous dog list". Do tell me about your experiences with dangerous gangs and living in a ghetto. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted March 10, 2019 #919 Share Posted March 10, 2019 54 minutes ago, Ruby04 said: There could never be a perfect world You're right. Not while there's just one person left who believes this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted March 10, 2019 #920 Share Posted March 10, 2019 9 minutes ago, Piney said: I never noticed that among the Bloods and Latin Kings. They all clam up. I was actually protected by the leader of the Trenton Bloods set. Do you have any experience in the criminal world? I went to highschool in Camden, New Jersey. During the 80's when it had the highest murder and crime rate in the First World. I was a cop who was sent to the gang max because I was on the "dangerous dog list". Do tell me about your experiences with dangerous gangs and living in a ghetto. You're not " Donnie Brasco " are you ? That was the big-time, and as history shows, they "turned" more than enough of them to get numerous convictions, code of silence my ass ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luca-RoseElsie-Raemom1921 Posted March 10, 2019 #921 Share Posted March 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Will Due said: You're right. Not while there's just one person left who believes this. Believes what? That we all have a different idea on perfect. To you the perfect world would be different to the next persons perfect world. EX some people their perfect would be no children allowed in public and someone else’s to allow children almost everywhere. A vegan no animals eaten or used, non vegan to eat what they wish no judgements 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted March 10, 2019 #922 Share Posted March 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ruby04 said: Believes what? That we all have a different idea on perfect. To you the perfect world would be different to the next persons perfect world. EX some people their perfect would be no children allowed in public and someone else’s to allow children almost everywhere. A vegan no animals eaten or used, non vegan to eat what they wish no judgements That's why the whole idea of 'perfection' is a made up concept. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luca-RoseElsie-Raemom1921 Posted March 10, 2019 #923 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Just now, Aquila King said: That's why the whole idea of 'perfection' is a made up concept. Exactly, it’s not something that exists. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted March 10, 2019 #924 Share Posted March 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Ruby04 said: Exactly, it’s not something that exists. It's just a human construct we humans use to belittle others. "You aren't perfect even though perfection doesn't exist. Shame on you." 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted March 10, 2019 #925 Share Posted March 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, Habitat said: You're not " Donnie Brasco " are you ? That was the big-time, and as history shows, they "turned" more than enough of them to get numerous convictions, code of silence my ass ! The lower mobsters always throws each other under the bus but not the gangs. I was pretty infamous. Here's the Philly paper pic. Great innit? They casted Jason Momoa for the Sundance drama though. They lied in the drama 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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