The Green New Deal

[Gunn]

(Note to thread: Lol. I just realized I've been giving the judges who evaluate/determine disability cases the wrong label. It's actually Administrative Law Judge or ALJ and not judge advocate. My bad. )

 

43 minutes ago, F3SS said:

He fills me in from time to time but I'm pretty sure he exhausted all his options but I think he's given a new lawyer a call recently. I feel like he still had or has another chance especially considering the medical evidence that he has been completley unable to work since day one and is finally about to embark on the last resort surgey of an ankle replacement at almost 65 years old. There's more nuance to his situation now but I really feel with the right lawyer he could have the case reopened/appealed again and win woth back pay. I can't see why not. His first lawyers were one of those commercial lawyers and they wouldn't return his calls after they lost the appeal and all he wanted was at least some closure and a better understanding of what might've went wrong besides the whim of a judges mood on a given day.

Well I hope it all works out for him and he wins the back pay at least. Because it sounds like those first lawyers he had might of been shifty or careless and cost him his disability award. I had a neighbor that got denied after the first time he saw an ALJ in his disability case and it was the lawyers he had that cost him his disability award. They just didn't know what they were doing. He found that out after speaking to another lawyer who explained to him what the other idiots did wrong. Long story short, his new lawyer won him his case and most of the backpay he was suppose to get. So yeah, sometimes it's lawyers that "F" things up for you.

Edited February 10, 2019 by Gunn

[spartan max2]

18 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

OoooKAY. 

Just to indicate how credible Alexander Occassio Cortez's Green New Deal is..... she has removed it from her website. 

https://thehill-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/thehill.com/homenews/house/429282-ocasio-cortez-camp-clarifies-green-new-deal-details-after-faq-sparks-backlash?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&amp#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fthehill.com%2Fhomenews%2Fhouse%2F429282-ocasio-cortez-camp-clarifies-green-new-deal-details-after-faq-sparks-backlash

 

 

They are "claiming" it was a draft version that was not suppose to be put up  lol

[Gromdor]

What amuses me is that the idea that "Someone putting an honest day's work in should be able to feed their family and put a roof over their head." has become a socialist ideal.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

So, basically, the senior Democrats asked AOC what bus she’s like to be thrown under and then they organised it to arrive before she really built up a following. 

[Vorg]

2 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

So, basically, the senior Democrats asked AOC what bus she’s like to be thrown under and then they organised it to arrive before she really built up a following. 

Pelosi told her "Look honey, we let all these illegals in here for their vote, this green new deal ain't happening sweetie."

[RoofGardener]

6 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

https://thehill-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/thehill.com/homenews/house/429282-ocasio-cortez-camp-clarifies-green-new-deal-details-after-faq-sparks-backlash?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&amp#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fthehill.com%2Fhomenews%2Fhouse%2F429282-ocasio-cortez-camp-clarifies-green-new-deal-details-after-faq-sparks-backlash

 

 

They are "claiming" it was a draft version that was not suppose to be put up  lol

Draft version, or just Daft version ?  

[skliss]

12 hours ago, joc said:

It doesn't matter if they find the waste or not.  Congress has it set up so it is a Gravy Train for them.  If the Prez doesn't like the pork, his only option is to veto the bill.  Reagan wanted the Line Veto...where he could strike out parts of the bill...but they wouldn't give up that much power.  

 

 

Shining a public light on it and the representatives who are the biggest culprits of spending OUR money on unnecessary a d wasteful things might help though. Most of us have have job accountability, they need to have it as well.

[likwidlite]

On 09/02/2019 at 6:31 AM, Aquila King said:

No. Not even close. I've only said this a quintillion times here, but for the sake of argument, I will say it again....

I am not against Capitalism. I am against completely unregulated Capitalism. I'm a Social Democrat, which means that I'm in favor of a mixed market economy, with one part Capitalism, and one part Socialism (aka, social programs).

For the best picture of what I'm talking about, think off our current system as we have now - and simply tweak a few things with it. There isn't a single policy that I'm in favor of implementing that doesn't already exist here in the US, just in a much lesser extent.

• We already have free public school from grades K-12, I want to extend that to at least 4 years public college.
• We already have Medicare for people ages 65+, I want to expand Medicare to include everyone.
• We already have a national minimum wage of roughly $7, I want to increase that to $15.

The list could go on...

Get the picture? I'm not looking to completely overrun the American political system. Literally every single thing that I'm rooting for already exists here in the US, I'm just looking to expand upon and/or tweak it a little. That's all. Furthermore, there isn't a single policy proposal that I support that doesn't already exist (at least in some form or another) in some other modern developed country in Europe, or like Canada, or Australia, New Zealand, etc. I'm not pulling ideas from China, or Russia, or for God's sake ****ing Venezuela like you conservatives always yap about for no reason...

You and so many other conservatives here want to completely lose your s**t over these benign policy proposals and think "Oh my God!! He wants the Commies to take over good old 'Merica!! ABSOLUTE GUBBERMINT TAKEOVER OF EVER'THANG!!!!! Doom, gloom, despair!!! Something something dictatorship Venezuela something AAAAHH!!!" when literally nothing could be further from the truth. All I support are a few government-based programs that help give those in poverty the resources they need to work their way up. I unlike conservatives, don't believe that people are inherently capable of climbing the economic ladder and living a happy productive life without said systems in place. There has to be a social safety net at the bottom, so that those at the bottom are able to work their way up. Do you get it?

Alright, now I'm getting really really sick and tired of having to explain the same god damn thing over and over again, and I sure as hell ain't doing it in the same thread. So if you don't get where I stand by now, then my thought is you never will.

*mutters under breath to himself* Oh my ****ing god, Jesus Christ why do I have to explain this s**t again??? *facepalm*

If there's one thing that I'm sick of more than any other thing in the world, it's the whole 'Venezuela' line you cons repeat over and over and over again like a broken record player without a single clue in the world why it's so demonstrably wrong...

For a complete in-depth analysis of the Venezuela argument, and thorough DEBUNKING, click this link.

Though to summarize the link above (since you'll likely ignore it), Venezuela is an Authoritarian Socialist regime. It is not at all representative of the kind of 'Socialism' (namely, Democratic Socialism) I and many others on the left are arguing in favor of. Just because the nation has various Socialist policies, does not mean that there aren't various other political factors that lead to Venezuela's various hardships (for instance the crippling US sanctions hindering economic progress, an authoritarian dictator as political leader, a completely undemocratic elective system, etc.).

Furthermore, if we were to go by your logic that:

• Venezuela is Socialist, and Venezuela's economy failed, therefore Socialism is a failed economic system 

then we could use that exact same logic to 'debunk' Capitalism by citing Zimbabwe: 

• Zimbabwe is Capitalist, Zimbabwe's economy failed, therefore Capitalism is a failed economic system

See the problem with your logic here?

Constantly responding to anything the least bit Socialist with "Socialism, but whatabout Venezuela!?!?" not only completely mischaracterizes the kind of Democratic Socialism that we support, but the same exact argument could be used to supposedly 'debunk' Capitalism, so it's a pathetically bad argument all around.

I may not be able to get rid of hearing that stupid argument again and again in the future from other conservatives here, but if I could at least convince you to not use that same worn out line again in the future, it would be greatly appreciated. 

I agree with you here. Greed is a natural part of human nature, so to expect it to not exist in any system is unrealistic, and a waste of time. That's why I'm not a Marxist, or a Communist. I'm a Democratic Socialist, or more accurately, a Social Democrat. I don't believe we can eliminate human greed, but we can put sytems in place that prevent it from destroying the economy and getting out of hand.

That's why I'm in favor of government regulations that hold corporations accountable, I'm in favor of breaking up monopolies whenever corporations get too big so that they can more adequately compete with one another like a proper Capitalist system should operate, and I'm in favor of higher taxes on the wealthiest Americans as well as corporations in order to fund programs that the most impoverished Americans need in order to succeed and work their way to the top.

I hope I'm at least making my position a little more clear to you. I'll let you know, I wouldn't be explaining all this to you if I didn't believe you to genuinely be unaware of my actual position here. A lot of other posters here just want to mud-sling and demonize the opposition without a care in the world as to whether it's true or not. In other words they call me a Communist etc. knowing full well that's bulls**t, but they say it anyway just to troll and as I said, demonize. I think you're sincere in your ideology and sincerely don't understand the difference between the various kinds and degrees of leftist ideologies, you're just 

Your posts are very much based around what "you want/you think/you feel/you...." out of interest what do you do? Work wise or even to further your ideals.You talk a lot about providing for others and creating a your society but on individual level what do you provide or give back? 

The reason I ask is that it's easy to see most leaning to the "right" here are grafters/providers and whilst I personally may not agree, I get that's why they're so opposed to socialist ideas that will take their hard work and give to others who they see as undeserving. 

Do these debates really boil down to a matter of perspective? One looking at society as a whole and saying "things aren't fair, we must take from the providers and share" vs the individual who looks at their graft and saying "who are you to decide what happens with the fruit of my labour". 

 

[+joc]

1 hour ago, skliss said:

Shining a public light on it and the representatives who are the biggest culprits of spending OUR money on unnecessary a d wasteful things might help though. Most of us have have job accountability, they need to have it as well.

I agree, but it's not that a public light hasn't been shining on it for years... the Mainstream Media simply doesn't care about that. Their narrative doesn't need to show any wasteful spending of Congress...that just highlights the Robert Birds of the system. The Mainstream Media tells everyone what they want them to hear and ignores what they don't want them to hear.  Until Pravda changes...and I don't see that ever happening...the Light you seek is extremely limited in its swath.  

For instance, look who just through her hat in the Presidential 2020 ring.  None other than Pocahontas...Elizabeth Warren!  She is running on...Change...she wants to bring Economic Equality...nothing new there...except Trump has already done that with the lowest unemployment in virtually forever.  But will the Mainstream Media put a light on that?  No way.

[+joc]

9 hours ago, Gromdor said:

What amuses me is that the idea that "Someone putting an honest day's work in should be able to feed their family and put a roof over their head." has become a socialist ideal.

What is sad is an ideology that attempts to define what an 'honest day's work' should enable one person to do.  Company A needs a ditch dug.  Employee #3 says...I'll dig it.  Company A can only afford to pay employee #3 12 dollars and hour.  Employee #3 has the right, and the freedom to say....dig it yourself...I will go find a job for 20 dollars and hour.  Except no one wants to pay him 20 dollars an hour because he doesn't know how to do anything except manual labor.  So, is he being forced to work in a job that nets only $100 a day?  It's his choice.   But let's say he tells his wife to please find a job.  And she does...and she goes to work at Walmart for $12 per hour.   Now, together they are making 4000 dollars a month.  They can live on that!   

So what's your beef?  I know a guy in a similar position.  He works 3 jobs.  And she also works.  People do what people have to do and it is not your responsibility nor your job nor your business to tell other people who are actually creating jobs what they need to pay other people.  It is the people who get to decide whether, for them, they think it is worth it.  It's called Freedom and it works.

[Gromdor]

43 minutes ago, joc said:

What is sad is an ideology that attempts to define what an 'honest day's work' should enable one person to do.  Company A needs a ditch dug.  Employee #3 says...I'll dig it.  Company A can only afford to pay employee #3 12 dollars and hour.  Employee #3 has the right, and the freedom to say....dig it yourself...I will go find a job for 20 dollars and hour.  Except no one wants to pay him 20 dollars an hour because he doesn't know how to do anything except manual labor.  So, is he being forced to work in a job that nets only $100 a day?  It's his choice.   But let's say he tells his wife to please find a job.  And she does...and she goes to work at Walmart for $12 per hour.   Now, together they are making 4000 dollars a month.  They can live on that!   

So what's your beef?  I know a guy in a similar position.  He works 3 jobs.  And she also works.  People do what people have to do and it is not your responsibility nor your job nor your business to tell other people who are actually creating jobs what they need to pay other people.  It is the people who get to decide whether, for them, they think it is worth it.  It's called Freedom and it works.

Hmm.  So you like the current system where people are working full time and getting food stamps and housing assistance paid for with your tax dollars?  And who really benefits the most from that the family or the company that gets government subsidized labor?  Seems socialist to me to promote a system where government handouts are required, which it seems you are doing.

[+joc]

12 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Hmm.  So you like the current system where people are working full time and getting food stamps and housing assistance paid for with your tax dollars?  And who really benefits the most from that the family or the company that gets government subsidized labor?  Seems socialist to me to promote a system where government handouts are required, which it seems you are doing.

I like people to have the freedom  of going out and finding work and doing what is necessary to make ends meet.  And if Employee Z isn't paying you enough...do what is necessary...even if it means relocating to where there are better job opportunities.  I'm not for any Government System of handing out money to people.

[Gromdor]

1 minute ago, joc said:

I like people to have the freedom  of going out and finding work and doing what is necessary to make ends meet.  And if Employee Z isn't paying you enough...do what is necessary...even if it means relocating to where there are better job opportunities.  I'm not for any Government System of handing out money to people.

You should be in favor of illegal immigration then. 

[+joc]

20 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

You should be in favor of illegal immigration then. 

I'm talking about the Freedom of American Citizens...not the Freedom of those who are not.  You just seem to be wanting to fight for some reason.  lol

[spartan max2]

11 hours ago, Gromdor said:

What amuses me is that the idea that "Someone putting an honest day's work in should be able to feed their family and put a roof over their head." has become a socialist ideal.

Thats not a socialist idea, everyone feels that way.

[Gromdor]

15 minutes ago, joc said:

I'm talking about the Freedom of American Citizens...not the Freedom of those who are not.  You just seem to be wanting to fight for some reason.  lol

Eh, you're probably right.  I am grumpy looking at the snow falling outside of the house and not wanting to shovel.

[+joc]

11 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Eh, you're probably right.  I am grumpy looking at the snow falling outside of the house and not wanting to shovel.

I'll trade you 37 wet damp, rainy degrees for a few hours while I shovel your snow.

[Big Jim]

46 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Someone putting an honest day's work in should be able to feed their family and put a roof over their head."

All jobs are not created equal.  There are many jobs that were never intended to support a family, they were intended to introduce teenagers to the working world and provide some spending money.  If a 40 year old with 5 kids takes that job it's not up to government or anyone else to make the outcome equal to someone with a degree and 10 years experience in a well paying field.  This is part of the problem with illegal immigration.  Due to lack of job and language skills they're filling jobs intended for unskilled kids but they have the family responsibilities of adults.  A person's life ambitions should follow their job ambitions.  You can't expect to drink champagne on a beer budget.  The most we were ever promised is equal opportunity, not equal outcomes.  If an honest day's work doesn't provide for you in your situation, you've either got the wrong job or the wrong situation.  Do something about it.

[skliss]

3 hours ago, joc said:

I agree, but it's not that a public light hasn't been shining on it for years... the Mainstream Media simply doesn't care about that. Their narrative doesn't need to show any wasteful spending of Congress...that just highlights the Robert Birds of the system. The Mainstream Media tells everyone what they want them to hear and ignores what they don't want them to hear.  Until Pravda changes...and I don't see that ever happening...the Light you seek is extremely limited in its swath.  

For instance, look who just through her hat in the Presidential 2020 ring.  None other than Pocahontas...Elizabeth Warren!  She is running on...Change...she wants to bring Economic Equality...nothing new there...except Trump has already done that with the lowest unemployment in virtually forever.  But will the Mainstream Media put a light on that?  No way.

Except that Trump will make sure the light is shined. The media can't help but repeat his every tweet. Even when they do it disparagingly they fail to realize people are reading and understanding his original message. Kinda funny really. 

[+joc]

41 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

All jobs are not created equal.  There are many jobs that were never intended to support a family, they were intended to introduce teenagers to the working world and provide some spending money.  If a 40 year old with 5 kids takes that job it's not up to government or anyone else to make the outcome equal to someone with a degree and 10 years experience in a well paying field.  This is part of the problem with illegal immigration.  Due to lack of job and language skills they're filling jobs intended for unskilled kids but they have the family responsibilities of adults.  A person's life ambitions should follow their job ambitions.  You can't expect to drink champagne on a beer budget.  The most we were ever promised is equal opportunity, not equal outcomes.  If an honest day's work doesn't provide for you in your situation, you've either got the wrong job or the wrong situation.  Do something about it.

Again...very well said.   Thank you! 

[Farmer77]

3 hours ago, joc said:

For instance, look who just through her hat in the Presidential 2020 ring.  None other than Pocahontas...Elizabeth Warren!  She is running on...Change...she wants to bring Economic Equality...nothing new there...except Trump has already done that with the lowest unemployment in virtually forever.  But will the Mainstream Media put a light on that?  No way.

CNN does all the time.  Sadly it most often has to be in the form of fact checking Trump's rhetoric.

[+joc]

17 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

CNN does all the time.  Sadly it most often has to be in the form of fact checking Trump's rhetoric.

Are you or is CNN disputing the facts of the greatest economic recovery since the eighties?  CNN doesn't spend much time on checking the Democrats in Washington's rhetoric do they....or do they just ignore the obvious because they have an anti-Trump Narrative Agenda? 

[Farmer77]

Just now, joc said:

Are you or is CNN disputing the facts of the greatest economic recovery since the eighties?  CNN doesn't spend much time on checking the Democrats in Washington's rhetoric do they....or do they just ignore the obvious because they have an anti-Trump Narrative Agenda? 

I think those who dont watch CNN regularly would be surprised at how often they do beat up the democrats.

[+joc]

9 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

I think those who dont watch CNN regularly would be surprised at how often they do beat up the democrats.

The admission here is not that CNN beats up Democrats..they don't...the admission is that you regularly watch CNN which explains...virtually everything! 

[Aquila King]

6 hours ago, likwidlite said:

Your posts are very much based around what "you want/you think/you feel/you...." out of interest what do you do? Work wise or even to further your ideals.You talk a lot about providing for others and creating a your society but on individual level what do you provide or give back? 

The reason I ask is that it's easy to see most leaning to the "right" here are grafters/providers and whilst I personally may not agree, I get that's why they're so opposed to socialist ideas that will take their hard work and give to others who they see as undeserving. 

Do these debates really boil down to a matter of perspective? One looking at society as a whole and saying "things aren't fair, we must take from the providers and share" vs the individual who looks at their graft and saying "who are you to decide what happens with the fruit of my labour". 

Well for one I'd like to point out that I'm not interested in taking anything from working people, just the top 1% who's overall earnings are in no way proportional to their work, and who without it still manage to live the exact same lifestyle relatively unaffected.

As for my own individual work ethic, I think you miss the main point that I'm trying to make here. That is that you can't just naturally rise the top simply with a 'good work ethic', 'giving back', 'providing', etc. under a system like this that doesn't facilitate that kind of upward mobility. In other words, as I've stated here before: this system is NOT a Meritocracy.

See this is what drives me insane. Conservatives just naturally assume that people are able to rise to the top without any sort of assistance to do so. However, as the old saying goes: "You have to have money to make money." Virtually every single financially successful person out there had some sort of money to deal with at the start in order to get to where they are today.

If you envision purely unbridled Capitalism as a race to the top, then those born into any sort of wealth start the race off way ahead of those born into poverty, while those in poverty start the race so far behind the others that it's often times outright impossible to get ahead of those starting way ahead of them. What Socialism does (again, the specific brand of Socialism I support) is it allows everyone to start the race from the same starting line. Everyone has healthcare, everyone has an education, everyone who works full time makes enough money to pay for basic necessities, etc. Everyone has an equal opportunity to succeed when everyone starts the race off at roughly the same point.

A purely unbridled Capitalist system without any basic social programs for those at the bottom does not allow for people to simply 'work their way to the top'. With no education, you can't get higher paying jobs. With no living wage as a minimum wage, you can work 2 or 3 jobs, not have any extra time for anything apart from a few hours of sleep, and still not have enough money to pay your basic bills, much less enough time or money to invest in anything else. Without healthcare you could literally get sick and be unable to work due to it remaining untreated, you could go completely bankrupt trying to pay your medical bills, or God forbid outright die, simply because you can't afford any private insurance or medical treatment. 

You can't just naturally assume that everyone starts out at the same place economically and that everyone can compete equally with everyone else. It just doesn't work that way.

Edited February 10, 2019 by Aquila King
Typos.