CrimsonKing Posted February 8, 2019 #26 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Just now, spartan max2 said: It's true, it's not in the OP link though, it was in a summarize statement her people release earlier Welp...to the trash bins of history this goes! 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis914 Posted February 8, 2019 #27 Share Posted February 8, 2019 8 minutes ago, Farmer77 said: I think in general it should succeed. When you look at the nordic nations with their blended social programs you can see massive successes. https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/10/20/can-the-us-become-denmark/a-us-more-like-denmark-be-careful-what-you-wish-for Even the NYT doesn't buy this... geez. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setton Posted February 8, 2019 #28 Share Posted February 8, 2019 54 minutes ago, seanjo said: Either is **** and has never worked. You do realise we have socialism in this country right? Where do you think our healthcare comes from? Or our schools? (pretty sure you're not private schooled). Regardless, if he's going to try and debate this proposal, he needs to first decide what he thinks it is. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer77 Posted February 8, 2019 #29 Share Posted February 8, 2019 6 minutes ago, Mantis914 said: https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/10/20/can-the-us-become-denmark/a-us-more-like-denmark-be-careful-what-you-wish-for Even the NYT doesn't buy this... geez. Due to your lack of basic knowledge of how journalism works I almsot didnt respond but I figured id help ya out. What you posted is called an op-ed, AKA an opinion piece. Opinion pieces can be written by anyone and are based on opinion. Long story short the NYT didnt write the opinion piece you posted. Now all of that said you and he arent necessarily wrong. Im certainly not advocating diving in and mimicking what anyone else is doing without careful planning and specialization to fit our particular needs 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted February 8, 2019 #30 Share Posted February 8, 2019 1 hour ago, Stardrive said: Well the plan puts a lot of people out work. But no worries, the government will give you a job! (sound familiar?) Not to mention the amount of fossil fuel it takes to build all of this "green" energy and "new" infrastructure. People don't have a clue. Good to see you, by the way, hon! 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis914 Posted February 8, 2019 #31 Share Posted February 8, 2019 11 minutes ago, Farmer77 said: Due to your lack of basic knowledge of how journalism works I almsot didnt respond but I figured id help ya out. What you posted is called an op-ed, AKA an opinion piece. Opinion pieces can be written by anyone and are based on opinion. Long story short the NYT didnt write the opinion piece you posted. Now all of that said you and he arent necessarily wrong. Im certainly not advocating diving in and mimicking what anyone else is doing without careful planning and specialization to fit our particular needs I'm afraid there is a lot more than just op-eds that form the basis of (real) journalism but thanks, I'm good. I don't need any help here. I'd sooner value the opinions of a global distinguished professor though but hey, that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stardrive Posted February 8, 2019 #32 Share Posted February 8, 2019 33 minutes ago, Michelle said: Not to mention the amount of fossil fuel it takes to build all of this "green" energy and "new" infrastructure. People don't have a clue. Good to see you, by the way, hon! It's like golfers pants (18 holes) lol If one takes the time to read the entire proposal it's plain to see it has nothing to do with the environment and everything to do with absolute government contol of everything. Good to see you too!! 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Wearer of Hats Posted February 8, 2019 #33 Share Posted February 8, 2019 I can see some slimy prick using “the right to employment” as ground to undo a sacking. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stardrive Posted February 8, 2019 #34 Share Posted February 8, 2019 1 hour ago, Setton said: You do realise we have socialism in this country right? Wrong, you have socialist programs in place as most all do. Socialism is a form of government. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jim Posted February 8, 2019 #35 Share Posted February 8, 2019 I can't see the "jobs for anyone wanting to work" as leading to anything other than chaos. No matter how much we have invested in our careers, sometimes the one thing that keeps us going to work is knowing that we have to. We can't just walk away when we feel like it because jobs aren't that easy to come by and bills must be paid. But if jobs are available to everyone on a walk in basis, and the safety net is deep and wide, what's to keep people from just walking out when they don't feel like working anymore? It sounds like the purpose of these jobs is to employ the least motivated among us so I would expect a lot of people will quit when they have enough money for a while, or to take a month off, or just to try something new. There's nothing to encourage commitment because all jobs will pay a living wage and they will be available to anyone who wants one. How do you manage a business or society like that? How do you keep the lights on and the trains running when you can't count on a consistent, trained workforce? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonKing Posted February 8, 2019 #36 Share Posted February 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, Big Jim said: How do you keep the lights on and the trains running when you can't count on a consistent, trained workforce? Who cares... With a guaranteed living wage even for those who don't want to work,nobody will even need jobs! We will just let the robots do the work...or sumthin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz_Light_Year Posted February 9, 2019 #37 Share Posted February 9, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Farmer77 said: I think they will succeed. The reality is incorporating socialistic principles in certain areas is the fiscally responsible thing to do as well as the humane thing. I think this bill is pretty pie in the sky, just throw it all out there and go from there, or as Trump "said" in art of the deal ask for the world and then negotiate down to what you really want. As for its effects I dont truly understand all of its details to comment but done correctly incorporating socialistic concepts in education and healthcare will lead to a boon for American ingenuity and prosperity. Thanks for the laugh. Edited February 9, 2019 by Buzz_Light_Year 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoofGardener Posted February 9, 2019 #38 Share Posted February 9, 2019 3 hours ago, Nnicolette said: Well i read every word and there are many important items included that need to be addressed. I hope this does gain the monumental momentum tgat will be required to enact, because it is what we need. This would change a lot of peoples lives for the better. How much will it cost for this "guaranteed work"... e.g. unproductive make-work .. and who will pay for it ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan max2 Posted February 9, 2019 #39 Share Posted February 9, 2019 (edited) The plan wants nationalized healthcare, college, energy and utilities, housing, and a nationalized federal reserve (so they can print all the money they want), all unionized. When the doctors, nurses, engineers, and bankers are all making less money what do you think will happen. People will start getting trained in something else that is easier and makes more. We will have less talent. So when all these government employees go on strike because they want more pay, where will the government get the money? Even more taxes or printing money for inflation. Which will squeeze the employees' paychecks more, which will make them strike again, rinse and repeat. The government is not efficient. A centralized system is a system that is not based on making the best products or providing the best service in a competitive market, it is based on politics, based on the amount of favors and connections you have, it kills innovation. Edited February 9, 2019 by spartan max2 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post acidhead Posted February 9, 2019 Popular Post #40 Share Posted February 9, 2019 2 2 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatetopa Posted February 9, 2019 #41 Share Posted February 9, 2019 5 hours ago, Nnicolette said: I like it. Anybody should be able to have a job if wanted and make themself useful. I think it should replace cash aid. I like this idea a lot. Provide people with jobs, if they can work, give them WPA and CCC projects rather than welfare, all the while helping them find jobs in the private sector. . Hard work and job training seems to me to be a better alternative for people and society if they are physically and mentally capable. I don't know if this part is socialist or not, but if you can turn 10 million unemployed people into cash earning and consuming citizens, it would seem to be a boon for the economy. The green economy may be beneficial to middle class citizens as well. Sixteen solar panels on my roof generate an average of 30% of my yearly power needs. The power company feeds it into the grid. I save about $850 dollars a year on my power bill. On a $11K investment, that is roughly 8% interest a year on my investment. In the event of grid failure I still have 30% generating capacity. Coal and oil are necessary, solar and wind won't totally replace them at this time, BUT I can't put a gas turbine or a small coal generating plant on my property, with coal and oil, I am captive to a multi-state utility. One part of freedom is generating your own power. As for the rest of the green new deal, I haven't read about it and don't know. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted February 9, 2019 Author #42 Share Posted February 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Big Jim said: I can't see the "jobs for anyone wanting to work" as leading to anything other than chaos. No matter how much we have invested in our careers, sometimes the one thing that keeps us going to work is knowing that we have to. We can't just walk away when we feel like it because jobs aren't that easy to come by and bills must be paid. But if jobs are available to everyone on a walk in basis, and the safety net is deep and wide, what's to keep people from just walking out when they don't feel like working anymore? It sounds like the purpose of these jobs is to employ the least motivated among us so I would expect a lot of people will quit when they have enough money for a while, or to take a month off, or just to try something new. There's nothing to encourage commitment because all jobs will pay a living wage and they will be available to anyone who wants one. How do you manage a business or society like that? How do you keep the lights on and the trains running when you can't count on a consistent, trained workforce? Here is the history that most don't know. Look it up if you doubt me people! This country was founded on Socialism! It was NOT founded on Capitalism...it was founded on Socialism...and it failed miserably. The first winter was hard on the new pilgrims and many didn't make it. So they decided the best way to go about things was to have a community pot of sorts where everyone worked and chipped in their gains so that everyone, regardless of whether they worked or not would not starve to death during the winter. But it didn't work out very well...because if there isn't incentive to work...the people really have no reason to...so the slacking was sufficient enough to be totally counterproductive to their welfare. So they decided to something else...they divided all the land everyone got a plot of land of their own...grow what you want...produce yourself enough to get through the winter. That worked quite well...now the people had a stake in the new land...and they had incentive...they had to work hard just to survive. And they began to have surpluses....and the story continued...Capitalism was born. Socialism doesn't work because of what Big Jim just said. No incentive means no work...if I can not profit from my own work because the government is taking all my money to pay for everyone else...we are right back where we started. No where! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted February 9, 2019 #43 Share Posted February 9, 2019 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted February 9, 2019 #44 Share Posted February 9, 2019 5 hours ago, Nnicolette said: Dubbing anything that benefits those less fortunate than you "socialist" and snubbing it for that is a disturbing behavior to me. Yet that seems to unfortunately be the American way... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan max2 Posted February 9, 2019 #45 Share Posted February 9, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Tatetopa said: I like this idea a lot. Provide people with jobs, if they can work, give them WPA and CCC projects rather than welfare, all the while helping them find jobs in the private sector. . Hard work and job training seems to me to be a better alternative for people and society if they are physically and mentally capable. I don't know if this part is socialist or not, but if you can turn 10 million unemployed people into cash earning and consuming citizens, it would seem to be a boon for the economy. The green economy may be beneficial to middle class citizens as well. Sixteen solar panels on my roof generate an average of 30% of my yearly power needs. The power company feeds it into the grid. I save about $850 dollars a year on my power bill. On a $11K investment, that is roughly 8% interest a year on my investment. In the event of grid failure I still have 30% generating capacity. Coal and oil are necessary, solar and wind won't totally replace them at this time, BUT I can't put a gas turbine or a small coal generating plant on my property, with coal and oil, I am captive to a multi-state utility. One part of freedom is generating your own power. As for the rest of the green new deal, I haven't read about it and don't know. Most people agree that a renewable Green economy is more beneficial. I plan on getting solar panels once I get the chance. But a nationalized energy industry is a disaster. Edited February 9, 2019 by spartan max2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan max2 Posted February 9, 2019 #46 Share Posted February 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, Aquila King said: And why do you think conservatives oppose it? Honest question. Because the reason I oppose it is because it would cause harm to everyone. Intention and reality are two different things. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted February 9, 2019 Author #47 Share Posted February 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Tatetopa said: I like this idea a lot. Provide people with jobs, if they can work, give them WPA and CCC projects rather than welfare, all the while helping them find jobs in the private sector. . Hard work and job training seems to me to be a better alternative for people and society if they are physically and mentally capable. I don't know if this part is socialist or not, but if you can turn 10 million unemployed people into cash earning and consuming citizens, it would seem to be a boon for the economy. In the first place, I don't think you have even the most basic understanding of economics. So...Economics 101: The only reason for a business to exist is to help other people. People need all kinds of help, from eating, to entertaining themselves, to having their cars repaired, etc. But the business has to make a profit...otherwise...if they tried to help everyone for free they would very soon use up all their resources and perish. When a business begins to grow it needs to hire new employees. If businesses don't grow...then they don't hire any employees. When there are less regulations and less taxes, businesses that want to grow do so at a much faster pace. And so employment goes way up, and conversely, unemployment goes way down...like what we have right now. Anyone who wants a job can find a job...and no one said anything is or has to be or should be easy! Government projects don't produce any income...so how could they afford to pay new employees? Make Work is a stupid idea not a good one. It doesn't work. It cannot work. It has never worked. Because it is economically impossible. We have the lowest unemployment right now since Ronald Reagan. And who did that? Trump! And yet all the Socialists are clamoring on about how everyone should be able to get a job. Well they already are able to if they want to...and again...just please people...just please stop talking about how it should be easy. Nothing worth anything in this world is easy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted February 9, 2019 #48 Share Posted February 9, 2019 1 minute ago, spartan max2 said: And why do you think conservatives oppose it? Honest question. Because the reason I oppose it is because it would cause harm to everyone. Intention and reality are two different things. Mhm. Yeah. Just as providing healthcare to people would harm everyone. And paying people a living wage would harm everyone. Or literally any common sense thing that benefits people somehow harms everyone. Why do I think conservatives oppose it you ask? There's no logic to any of this s**t, so beats the hell outta me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted February 9, 2019 #49 Share Posted February 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, joc said: In the first place, I don't think you have even the most basic understanding of economics. So...Economics 101: The only reason for a business to exist is to help other people... The irony of this ^ post cannot be understated... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted February 9, 2019 Author #50 Share Posted February 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, Aquila King said: 5 hours ago, Nnicolette said: Dubbing anything that benefits those less fortunate than you "socialist" and snubbing it for that is a disturbing behavior to me. Yet that seems to unfortunately be the American way... No...Socialism is an ideology...it comes from Karl Marx. The American way is to help each other... not snub our noses at the less fortunate. You people are listening to the Global Media Propaganda campaign. And you don't even know it. You don't even know what the American Way even is. Want a clue about Socialism/Communism? Read a book: One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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