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joc

The Green New Deal

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Farmer77
1 hour ago, joc said:

So you think it will succeed. Sounds like you think it should exceed.  Can you explain where exactly Socialism has ever been done 'correctly' where the Utopian Dream was anything other than an outright disaster for the people?

I think in general it should succeed. When you look at the nordic nations with their blended social programs you can see massive successes.

 

 

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spartan max2
4 minutes ago, CrimsonKing said:

I read somewhere and of course it coulda just been random smear tactics but if "a guaranteed living wage,no matter if one is able but decides not to work"...

If true,go ahead and throw this whole plan in the dump!

I and mostly any/everyone i know will flat out refuse to give lazy bums a free slice of our earned paychecks!

There is a whole lotta pie in the sky BS in this,very similair to Obama's original "Hope and Change" propaganda!

It's true, it's not in the OP link though, it was in a summarize statement her people release earlier 

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CrimsonKing
Just now, spartan max2 said:

It's true, it's not in the OP link though, it was in a summarize statement her people release earlier 

Welp...to the trash bins of history this goes!

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Mantis914
8 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

I think in general it should succeed. When you look at the nordic nations with their blended social programs you can see massive successes.

 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/10/20/can-the-us-become-denmark/a-us-more-like-denmark-be-careful-what-you-wish-for

 

Even the NYT doesn't buy this... geez.

 

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Setton
54 minutes ago, seanjo said:

Either is **** and has never worked.

You do realise we have socialism in this country right? 

Where do you think our healthcare comes from? Or our schools? (pretty sure you're not private schooled). 

Regardless, if he's going to try and debate this proposal, he needs to first decide what he thinks it is. 

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Farmer77
6 minutes ago, Mantis914 said:

Due to your lack of basic knowledge of how journalism works I almsot didnt respond but I figured id help ya out.

What you posted is called an op-ed, AKA an opinion piece. Opinion pieces can be written by anyone and are based on opinion. Long story short the NYT didnt write the opinion piece you posted.

Now all of that said you and he arent necessarily wrong. Im certainly not advocating diving in and mimicking what anyone else is doing without careful planning and specialization to fit our particular needs

 

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Michelle
1 hour ago, Stardrive said:

Well the plan puts a lot of people out work. But no worries, the government will give you a job! (sound familiar?)

Not to mention the amount of fossil fuel it takes to build all of this "green" energy and "new" infrastructure. People don't have a clue.

Good to see you, by the way, hon!

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Mantis914
11 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Due to your lack of basic knowledge of how journalism works I almsot didnt respond but I figured id help ya out.

What you posted is called an op-ed, AKA an opinion piece. Opinion pieces can be written by anyone and are based on opinion. Long story short the NYT didnt write the opinion piece you posted.

Now all of that said you and he arent necessarily wrong. Im certainly not advocating diving in and mimicking what anyone else is doing without careful planning and specialization to fit our particular needs

 

 

I'm afraid there is a lot more than just op-eds that form the basis of (real) journalism but thanks, I'm good.  I don't need any help here.

I'd sooner value the opinions of a global distinguished professor though but hey, that's just me. 

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seanjo
33 minutes ago, Setton said:

You do realise we have socialism in this country right? 

Where do you think our healthcare comes from? Or our schools? (pretty sure you're not private schooled). 

Regardless, if he's going to try and debate this proposal, he needs to first decide what he thinks it is. 

We have a welfare state and public service paid for by private industry, a "free" market economy... The NHS was originally proposed by Churchill's government backed by the Liberals, opposed by Labour. When Labour were voted into power they enacted the proposals they opposed! No Western Country, no successful country is socialist. 

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Stardrive
33 minutes ago, Michelle said:

Not to mention the amount of fossil fuel it takes to build all of this "green" energy and "new" infrastructure. People don't have a clue.

Good to see you, by the way, hon!

It's like golfers pants (18 holes) lol 

If one takes the time to read the entire proposal it's plain to see it has nothing to do with the environment and everything to do with absolute government contol of everything. 

Good to see you too!!

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Sir Wearer of Hats

I can see some slimy prick using “the right to employment” as ground to undo a sacking.

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Stardrive
1 hour ago, Setton said:

You do realise we have socialism in this country right? 

Wrong, you have socialist programs in place as most all do. Socialism is a form of government. 

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Big Jim

I can't see the "jobs for anyone wanting to work" as leading to anything other than chaos.  No matter how much we have invested in our careers, sometimes the one thing that keeps us going to work is knowing that we have to.  We can't just walk away when we feel like it because jobs aren't that easy to come by and bills must be paid.  But if jobs are available to everyone on a walk in basis, and the safety net is deep and wide, what's to keep people from just walking out when they don't feel like working anymore?  It sounds like the purpose of these jobs is to employ the least motivated among us so I would expect a lot of people will quit when they have enough money for a while, or to take a month off, or just to try something new.  There's nothing to encourage commitment because all jobs will pay a living wage and they will be available to anyone who wants one.  How do you manage a business or society like that?  How do you keep the lights on and the trains running when you can't count on a consistent, trained workforce?  

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CrimsonKing
3 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

 How do you keep the lights on and the trains running when you can't count on a consistent, trained workforce?  

Who cares...

With a guaranteed living wage even for those who don't want to work,nobody will even need jobs!

We will just let the robots do the work...or sumthin :wacko:

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Buzz_Light_Year
3 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

I think they will succeed. The reality is incorporating socialistic principles in certain areas is the fiscally responsible thing to do as well as the humane thing.

I think this bill is pretty pie in the sky, just throw it all out there and go from there, or as Trump "said" in art of the deal ask for the world and then negotiate down to what you really want.

As for its effects I dont truly understand all of its details to comment but done correctly incorporating socialistic concepts in education and healthcare will lead to a boon for American ingenuity and prosperity.

Thanks for the laugh.

Edited by Buzz_Light_Year
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RoofGardener
3 hours ago, Nnicolette said:

Well i read every word and there are many important items included that need to be addressed. I hope this does gain the monumental momentum tgat will be required to enact, because it is what we need. This would change a lot of peoples lives for the better.

How much will it cost for this "guaranteed work"... e.g. unproductive make-work .. and who will pay for it ? 

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spartan max2

The plan wants nationalized healthcare, college, energy and utilities, housing, and a nationalized federal reserve (so they can print all the money they want), all unionized.

When the doctors, nurses, engineers, and bankers are all making less money what do you think will happen. People will start getting trained in something else that is easier and makes more. We will have less talent.

So when all these government employees go on strike because they want more pay, where will the government get the money? Even more taxes or printing money for inflation.

Which will squeeze the employees' paychecks more, which will make them strike again, rinse and repeat.

The government is not efficient. A centralized system is a system that is not based on making the best products or providing the best service in a competitive market, it is based on politics, based on the amount of favors and connections you have, it kills innovation.

 

Edited by spartan max2
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Tatetopa
5 hours ago, Nnicolette said:

I like it. Anybody should be able to have a job if wanted and make themself useful. I think it should replace cash aid.

I like this idea a lot.  Provide people with jobs,  if they can work, give them WPA and CCC projects rather than welfare, all the while helping them find jobs in the private sector. . Hard work and job training seems to me to be a  better alternative  for people and society  if they are physically and mentally capable.  I don't know if this part is socialist or not, but if you can turn 10 million unemployed people into cash earning and consuming citizens, it would seem to be a boon for the economy.

The green economy may be beneficial to middle class citizens as well.  Sixteen solar panels on my roof generate an average of 30% of my yearly power needs. The power company feeds it into the grid.  I save about $850 dollars a year on my power bill. On a $11K investment, that is roughly 8% interest a year on my investment. In the event of grid failure I still have 30% generating capacity. 

Coal and oil are necessary, solar and wind won't totally replace them at this time, BUT I can't put a gas turbine or a small coal generating plant on my property, with coal and oil, I am captive to a multi-state utility.  One part of  freedom is generating your own power.

As for the rest of the green new deal, I haven't read about it and don't know.

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joc
1 hour ago, Big Jim said:

I can't see the "jobs for anyone wanting to work" as leading to anything other than chaos.  No matter how much we have invested in our careers, sometimes the one thing that keeps us going to work is knowing that we have to.  We can't just walk away when we feel like it because jobs aren't that easy to come by and bills must be paid.  But if jobs are available to everyone on a walk in basis, and the safety net is deep and wide, what's to keep people from just walking out when they don't feel like working anymore?  It sounds like the purpose of these jobs is to employ the least motivated among us so I would expect a lot of people will quit when they have enough money for a while, or to take a month off, or just to try something new.  There's nothing to encourage commitment because all jobs will pay a living wage and they will be available to anyone who wants one.  How do you manage a business or society like that?  How do you keep the lights on and the trains running when you can't count on a consistent, trained workforce?  

Here is the history that most don't know.  Look it up if you doubt me people!  This country was founded on Socialism!  It was NOT founded on Capitalism...it was founded on Socialism...and it failed miserably.  The first winter was hard on the new pilgrims and many didn't make it.  So they decided the best way to go about things was to have a community pot of sorts where everyone worked and chipped in their gains so that everyone, regardless of whether they worked or not would not starve to death during the winter.  But it didn't work out very well...because if there isn't incentive to work...the people really have no reason to...so the slacking was sufficient enough to be totally counterproductive to their welfare.  So they decided to something else...they divided all the land everyone got a plot of land of their own...grow what you want...produce yourself enough to get through the winter.  That worked quite well...now the people had a stake in the new land...and they had incentive...they had to work hard just to survive.  And they began to have surpluses....and the story continued...Capitalism was born.

Socialism doesn't work because of what Big Jim just said.  No incentive means no work...if I can not profit from my own work because the government is taking all my money to pay for everyone else...we are right back where we started.  No where!

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Aquila King

Suicide Stewie Family Guy 08022019204521.jpg

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Aquila King
5 hours ago, Nnicolette said:

Dubbing anything that benefits those less fortunate than you "socialist" and snubbing it for that is a disturbing behavior to me. 

Yet that seems to unfortunately be the American way... <_<

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spartan max2
7 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

I like this idea a lot.  Provide people with jobs,  if they can work, give them WPA and CCC projects rather than welfare, all the while helping them find jobs in the private sector. . Hard work and job training seems to me to be a  better alternative  for people and society  if they are physically and mentally capable.  I don't know if this part is socialist or not, but if you can turn 10 million unemployed people into cash earning and consuming citizens, it would seem to be a boon for the economy.

The green economy may be beneficial to middle class citizens as well.  Sixteen solar panels on my roof generate an average of 30% of my yearly power needs. The power company feeds it into the grid.  I save about $850 dollars a year on my power bill. On a $11K investment, that is roughly 8% interest a year on my investment. In the event of grid failure I still have 30% generating capacity. 

Coal and oil are necessary, solar and wind won't totally replace them at this time, BUT I can't put a gas turbine or a small coal generating plant on my property, with coal and oil, I am captive to a multi-state utility.  One part of  freedom is generating your own power.

As for the rest of the green new deal, I haven't read about it and don't know.

Most people agree that a renewable Green economy is more beneficial.

I plan on getting solar panels once I get the chance. 

But a nationalized energy industry is a disaster.

 

Edited by spartan max2
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spartan max2
3 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Suicide Stewie Family Guy 08022019204521.jpg

And why do you think conservatives oppose it? Honest question.

Because the reason I oppose it is because it would cause harm to everyone. Intention and reality are two different things.

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joc
1 minute ago, Tatetopa said:

I like this idea a lot.  Provide people with jobs,  if they can work, give them WPA and CCC projects rather than welfare, all the while helping them find jobs in the private sector. . Hard work and job training seems to me to be a  better alternative  for people and society  if they are physically and mentally capable.  I don't know if this part is socialist or not, but if you can turn 10 million unemployed people into cash earning and consuming citizens, it would seem to be a boon for the economy.

In the first place, I don't think you have even the most basic understanding of economics.  So...Economics 101:

The only reason for a business to exist is to help other people.  People need all kinds of help, from eating, to entertaining themselves, to having their cars repaired, etc.  But the business has to make a profit...otherwise...if they tried to help everyone for free they would very soon use up all their resources and perish.

When a business begins to grow it needs to hire new employees.  If businesses don't grow...then they don't hire any employees.  When there are less regulations and less taxes, businesses that want to grow do so at a much faster pace.  And so employment goes way up, and conversely, unemployment goes way down...like what we have right now.  Anyone who wants a job can find a job...and no one said anything is or has to be or should be easy!

Government projects don't produce any income...so how could they afford to pay new employees?  Make Work is a stupid idea not a good one.  It doesn't work.  It cannot work.  It has never worked.  Because it is economically impossible.   We have the lowest unemployment right now since Ronald Reagan.   And who did that?  Trump! And yet all the Socialists are clamoring on about how everyone should be able to get a job.  Well they already are able to if they want to...and again...just please people...just please stop talking about how it should be easy.  Nothing worth anything in this world is easy.

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