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joc

The Green New Deal

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Aquila King
1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

And why do you think conservatives oppose it? Honest question.

Because the reason I oppose it is because it would cause harm to everyone. Intention and reality are two different things.

Mhm. Yeah. Just as providing healthcare to people would harm everyone. And paying people a living wage would harm everyone. Or literally any common sense thing that benefits people somehow harms everyone.

Why do I think conservatives oppose it you ask? There's no logic to any of this s**t, so beats the hell outta me. 

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Aquila King
6 minutes ago, joc said:

In the first place, I don't think you have even the most basic understanding of economics.  So...Economics 101:

The only reason for a business to exist is to help other people...

The irony of this ^ post cannot be understated... :blink:

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joc
6 minutes ago, Aquila King said:
5 hours ago, Nnicolette said:

Dubbing anything that benefits those less fortunate than you "socialist" and snubbing it for that is a disturbing behavior to me. 

Yet that seems to unfortunately be the American way... <_<

No...Socialism is an ideology...it comes from Karl Marx.  The American way is to help each other... not snub our noses at the less fortunate.  You people are listening to the Global Media Propaganda campaign.  And you don't even know it.  You don't even know what the American Way even is.  Want a clue about Socialism/Communism?  Read a book: One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich by Aleksandr  Solzhenitsyn.

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joc
Just now, Aquila King said:

The irony of this ^ post cannot be understated... :blink:

Explain the irony please.

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Michelle
7 minutes ago, joc said:

But the business has to make a profit...otherwise...if they tried to help everyone for free they would very soon use up all their resources and perish.

Small Businesses Struggling With $15 Minimum Wage, New Site Reports

Last week Senate Democrats introduced legislation to support a raise for minimum wage to $15 an hour by 2024. Nearly 20 states have already raised minimum wage at the local level.

While the Raise the Wage Act may have had positive intentions, it could close many small businesses, according to the Employment Policies Institute, a nonprofit which launched its own campaign last week called “Faces of $15,” a website that chronicles the stories of small business owners throughout the United States who are struggling to keep up with all the minimum wage increases.

The website contains 100 stories of small businesses that have been affected by the increased costs. “The real Faces of $15 are the business owners who've been forced to close their doors, and the employees who've lost their jobs,” says Michael Saltsman, managing director at EPI, "Policymakers shouldn't be fooled by labor's rose-colored rhetoric on a new wage mandate."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/eshachhabra/2017/05/30/small-businesses-struggling-with-15-minimum-wage-new-site-reports/#1d0a549e11ad

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joc
8 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Mhm. Yeah. Just as providing healthcare to people would harm everyone. And paying people a living wage would harm everyone. Or literally any common sense thing that benefits people somehow harms everyone.

Why do I think conservatives oppose it you ask? There's no logic to any of this s**t, so beats the hell outta me. 

I like you.  But you are totally clueless.  Why do you think insurance companies...in the days we had them...charged what they did for insurance?  Why do insurance companies who insure automobiles charge what they do...and why can it not be equal?  I doubt you have a clue.  Do you have any idea at all how insurance even became 'insurance'?  You can google anything but do you know yourself?  I doubt you have a clue.  You don't even know what a Living Wage is....you don't even know what a wage is.  You don't know anything much about anything much so how is it that you are an expert about all of it?

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Tatetopa
12 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

But a nationalized energy industry is a disaster.

Don't really need to.  Instead of the power company adding 30% new capacity, I put my own money up to invest and reap the rewards of capital investment.  I will admit, there was a tax credit from feds, state, and power company that amounted to about 20% of the cost.  That is scheduled to go away now after 2019.  So there is some federal involvement with money, but no oversight.  For every dollar feds state and power company invested in me, I matched it with $4 dollars back into the economy, and not just spent or blown away but generating power for the 25 year life of the cells and  saving me money.   No need to nationalize, local control only.

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Big Jim
7 minutes ago, joc said:

Government projects don't produce any income...so how could they afford to pay new employees?  Make Work is a stupid idea not a good one.  It doesn't work.  It cannot work.  It has never worked.  Because it is economically impossible. 

Government projects don't produce income because they don't produce anything.  At its most basic, wealth is produced by turning natural resources into products.  Farmers produce crops, miners produce ore, and so on.  The next level of usefulness (jobs) is in getting resources from the producers to those who will make products from it (shipping). The next is services to all of the above, feeding and tending to various needs. Government jobs are an impediment to the production of wealth because they siphon off income from the real producers.  We see this when the economy booms as government interference is reduced.  In other words, the cash to pay people for government make-work jobs has to first be taken from the people who are producing the wealth, so it's a net drain on society, not adding to the general well being.  Easy job availability encourages ignorance and laziness.  Who would get trained for a job when an easy, free one pays just as well?  In a few generations we would be like the Eloi.

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Michelle

I wish we could do solar, Tatepopa. We live in a heavily wooded area on the side of a mountain. We don't get enough sun to power solar path lights outside. :lol:

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joc
3 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

Government projects don't produce income because they don't produce anything.  At its most basic, wealth is produced by turning natural resources into products.  Farmers produce crops, miners produce ore, and so on.  The next level of usefulness (jobs) is in getting resources from the producers to those who will make products from it (shipping). The next is services to all of the above, feeding and tending to various needs. Government jobs are an impediment to the production of wealth because they siphon off income from the real producers.  We see this when the economy booms as government interference is reduced.  In other words, the cash to pay people for government make-work jobs has to first be taken from the people who are producing the wealth, so it's a net drain on society, not adding to the general well being.  Easy job availability encourages ignorance and laziness.  Who would get trained for a job when an easy, free one pays just as well?  In a few generations we would be like the Eloi.

Nicely stated and every word of it true!

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Aquila King
Just now, joc said:

No...Socialism is an ideology...it comes from Karl Marx. 

Dude, you're debunking your own bulls**t in the first sentence or two in your posts, so why waste your time writing all the other stuff that follows?... :huh:

Marxism is it's own very specific brand of socialism, that's more closely aligned with Communist ideology. I'm not a Marxist in any sense of the word.

It's like @Setton said earlier in the thread, why don't you start by learning not to conflate Socialism and Communism before we move forward with any discussion...

4 minutes ago, joc said:

Explain the irony please.

The driving force of any successful business is profit, and nothing else. The motivation behind business is greed, profits, and self-preservation, not the common good. The only reason companies do anything for people is to make a profit. If they can earn a profit at the expense of other people, then they'll do it. Sure, some small businesses here and there may possibly be run by people who actually give a crap. But once you get big enough you have to do whatever necessary to keep up profits or you lose to your cutthroat competitors. Businesses aren't out there doing good just for the sake of doing good. They only care about customer service so that they can continue to have customers. If they could monopolize and screw you over, they would. Thats just how the game's played. 

The fact that you want to paint private corporations and businesses as some sort of benevolent demigods who have your best interests at heart is so beyond delusional it's downright sad and pathetic. If anything, literally the exact opposite is true. That's the irony here. I know I sound harsh here, but again, this cannot be understated...

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spartan max2
8 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Mhm. Yeah. Just as providing healthcare to people would harm everyone. And paying people a living wage would harm everyone. Or literally any common sense thing that benefits people somehow harms everyone.

Why do I think conservatives oppose it you ask? There's no logic to any of this s**t, so beats the hell outta me. 

Firstly, I'm talking about the whole proposal, nationalized healthcare, education, the energy industry and utilities, nationalized federal reserve, guaranteed housing, and guaranteed work. What's your thoughts about that?

Second, nationalized healthcare increases wait time, and most countries still have supplemental private insurance, because people want to pay for quicker better service. Doctors and nurses make less which makes it harder to fill the field. One of my close friends supported universal healthcare in college until he entered the field and expierenced the difference between working in private healthcare vs public.

We have Medicare, Medicaid, and insurance, that is offered with full time employment. Who realistically does not have healthcare here ?

And lastly a question, if legislating people into prosperity worked then why not just push for a minimum wage of $50 an hour? Lol

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joc
1 minute ago, Michelle said:

I wish we could do solar, Tatepopa. We live in a heavily wooded area on the side of a mountain. We don't get enough sun to power solar path lights outside. :lol:

I don't want solar.  I think they are ugly...undependable...and more expensive.  The maintenance is something else I don't want the hassle of.  And what do you do when those baseball size chunks of ice come down and destroy all your panels?  

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Sir Wearer of Hats

I would institute a bare bones living wage for everyone. 

Just enough to pay for bread, milk ... the utter, bare bones basics needed to survive. Get rid of all government support programs except for the disabled who cannot work therefore should not be expected to live on a bare wage.

If you want more get a job. You want more then you get from that job? Get a better one or get a second job. Do something to improve your own lot in life, the government has ensured you have the basics you need to survive, it owes you nothing else.

 

now, brass tacks time:

Personal Taxes - only on income from employment over a certain level and at a fixed rate.

business taxes - a fixed rate  of charges based on your income. if your business earns money in the country you bloody well pay tax on that income no matter where your business is based.

medical care - now this is where things will get hairy, because while we could factor potential health care into the living wage, that would create an unfair environment, as the healthy are given free money for being healthy while the choniclyl I’ll are being punished for something that might be not their fault. Also, health care is expensive. It would also push up the living wage. We could have a government healthcare provider I suppose.

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Michelle
3 minutes ago, joc said:

I don't want solar.  I think they are ugly...undependable...and more expensive.  The maintenance is something else I don't want the hassle of.  And what do you do when those baseball size chunks of ice come down and destroy all your panels?  

I'm not a fan of windmills either. They destroy the natural beauty and are extremely detrimental to birds.

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Aquila King
13 minutes ago, joc said:

I like you.  But you are totally clueless.  Why do you think insurance companies...in the days we had them...charged what they did for insurance?  Why do insurance companies who insure automobiles charge what they do...and why can it not be equal?  I doubt you have a clue.  

Profits. Plain and simple.

14 minutes ago, joc said:

Do you have any idea at all how insurance even became 'insurance'?  You can google anything but do you know yourself?  I doubt you have a clue. 

I haven't researched the origin of insurance, but I'd say it started as all private businesses do. They see a demand for a product, so they create a company that provides said product for a price that they can profit from. Again, it's just that simple. 

17 minutes ago, joc said:

You don't even know what a Living Wage is....you don't even know what a wage is.  

Sure I do. Do you? See for yourself: http://livingwage.mit.edu

18 minutes ago, joc said:

You don't know anything much about anything much so how is it that you are an expert about all of it?

I'm not an expert by any means. I simply have the same basic capabilities as each and every one of you. Internet access is a wonderful thing. It allows for someone to actually look up and compare our system of governance with that of all other developed countries on earth, and then discover that in comparison we fall behind on nearly every statistic. And the only major differing factor at play is the degree of right-wing Capitalism as it exists right now.

You don't have to be an expert to to have a general knowledge of these things.

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joc
2 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Dude, you're debunking your own bulls**t in the first sentence or two in your posts, so why waste your time writing all the other stuff that follows?... :huh:

Marxism is it's own very specific brand of socialism, that's more closely aligned with Communist ideology. I'm not a Marxist in any sense of the word.

It's like @Setton said earlier in the thread, why don't you start by learning not to conflate Socialism and Communism before we move forward with any discussion...

The driving force of any successful business is profit, and nothing else. The motivation behind business is greed, profits, and self-preservation, not the common good. The only reason companies do anything for people is to make a profit. If they can earn a profit at the expense of other people, then they'll do it. Sure, some small businesses here and there may possibly be run by people who actually give a crap. But once you get big enough you have to do whatever necessary to keep up profits or you lose to your cutthroat competitors. Businesses aren't out there doing good just for the sake of doing good. They only care about customer service so that they can continue to have customers. If they could monopolize and screw you over, they would. Thats just how the game's played. 

The fact that you want to paint private corporations and businesses as some sort of benevolent demigods who have your best interests at heart is so beyond delusional it's downright sad and pathetic. If anything, literally the exact opposite is true. That's the irony here. I know I sound harsh here, but again, this cannot be understated...

Your thinking is 180 degrees out of phase.   Let's talk some specifics because your painting broadly with a brush of pure ignorance.

If I go to Home Depot...it is because they have something there that I want.  But Lowes has the same exact thing.  All  you are seeing is the greedy, nameless rich b******* that run the corporation at the top and get paid millions to do it....while the workers make zilch!  That's not how it is.  I...little old me...me, myself and I ...all by myself make all those rich b******* rich.  Me, and Pedro, and Jose and Andy and Karen and Louey...and countless millions of other people who just want need something and so they go to Home Depot and get it.  Home Depot helps me get done want I want done.  They carry the paint I need to paint my office, etc. When I take my family to a restaurant, we go there because we want to sit down and have someone just bring us our food and wait on us hand and foot.  And we pay them to do that.  They are meeting our need.  They are helping us eat.  

It is a symbiotic relationship that businesses have with their customers.  Because millions of us find Home Depot a convenient and affordable way to get what we need...we give them our money.  But how did we get our money?  How do Home Depot employees get their money?  You have totally bought into the Socialist Propaganda of the Left.  It's all out of phase.   Why is Sears going out of business and Sam's stores...Walmart is the largest corporation on the planet.  Because they are greedy?  No.  They help people.  If people didn't need help there would be no businesses.  

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joc
13 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

I would institute a bare bones living wage for everyone. 

Just enough to pay for bread, milk ... the utter, bare bones basics needed to survive. Get rid of all government support programs except for the disabled who cannot work therefore should not be expected to live on a bare wage.

If you want more get a job. You want more then you get from that job? Get a better one or get a second job. Do something to improve your own lot in life, the government has ensured you have the basics you need to survive, it owes you nothing else.

 

now, brass tacks time:

Personal Taxes - only on income from employment over a certain level and at a fixed rate.

business taxes - a fixed rate  of charges based on your income. if your business earns money in the country you bloody well pay tax on that income no matter where your business is based.

medical care - now this is where things will get hairy, because while we could factor potential health care into the living wage, that would create an unfair environment, as the healthy are given free money for being healthy while the choniclyl I’ll are being punished for something that might be not their fault. Also, health care is expensive. It would also push up the living wage. We could have a government healthcare provider I suppose.

How about that...no government assistance for anyone. Period.  Make it on your own or die!

NO income tax ....period.  Medical Care....do away with regulations so that  insurance companies could compete out of state....problem solved!

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F3SS
6 hours ago, joc said:

The Socialists are making a move to take over the Democrat party.  Do you think they will succeed?  Do you think they should succeed?  If this Bill were passed, what do you think it would mean for America and the World and why?

This plan is a ridiculous fantasy that i wanted to argue about but it's just so damn stupid it speaks for itself.

I would like to say it wont succeed but I cant make that call for a couple of more election cycles. In the mean time no i do not think it should succeed. I think the crazy asses should be booed, hissed and btched about every single second of the day. They should be tarred and feathered and ran out of office. They should be given the anti-Trump treatment to the 100th power. Their ideals have no place here and they don't deserve to be heard. No concessions for these destructive maniacs trying make this country a government and its  people. Screw them.

 

51 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

And why do you think conservatives oppose it? Honest question.

Because the reason I oppose it is because it would cause harm to everyone. Intention and reality are two different things.

Liberalism always produces the exact opposite of its stated intent. 

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seanjo
30 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Dude, you're debunking your own bulls**t in the first sentence or two in your posts, so why waste your time writing all the other stuff that follows?... :huh:

Marxism is it's own very specific brand of socialism, that's more closely aligned with Communist ideology. I'm not a Marxist in any sense of the word.

It's like @Setton said earlier in the thread, why don't you start by learning not to conflate Socialism and Communism before we move forward with any discussion...

The driving force of any successful business is profit, and nothing else. The motivation behind business is greed, profits, and self-preservation, not the common good. The only reason companies do anything for people is to make a profit. If they can earn a profit at the expense of other people, then they'll do it. Sure, some small businesses here and there may possibly be run by people who actually give a crap. But once you get big enough you have to do whatever necessary to keep up profits or you lose to your cutthroat competitors. Businesses aren't out there doing good just for the sake of doing good. They only care about customer service so that they can continue to have customers. If they could monopolize and screw you over, they would. Thats just how the game's played. 

The fact that you want to paint private corporations and businesses as some sort of benevolent demigods who have your best interests at heart is so beyond delusional it's downright sad and pathetic. If anything, literally the exact opposite is true. That's the irony here. I know I sound harsh here, but again, this cannot be understated...

Aaaah now I get it, you're a left wing troll that doesn't want to associate themselves with the most murderous ideology of the 20th century...100 million plus. 

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Aquila King
27 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Firstly, I'm talking about the whole proposal, nationalized healthcare, education, the energy industry and utilities, nationalized federal reserve, guaranteed housing, and guaranteed work. What's your thoughts about that?

Firstly, I had just gotten done with a long ass response when my tablet glitched out and I lost everything, so forgive the long wait here... <_<

Anyway, what's there really to talk about? I think it's awesome. Wholestop.

30 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Second, nationalized healthcare increases wait time, and most countries still have supplemental private insurance, because people want to pay for quicker better service. Doctors and nurses make less which makes it harder to fill the field. One of my close friends supported universal healthcare in college until he entered the field and expierenced the difference between working in private healthcare vs public.

Every single one of these right-wing talking points has already been debunked a thousand times by numerous independent studies. I feel no need to debunk them myself yet again when it already has been.

33 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

We have Medicare, Medicaid, and insurance, that is offered with full time employment. Who realistically does not have healthcare here ?

There are literally 44 million Americans who are uninsured, 8 out of 10 of which are employed. This is easily obtainable information by doing a simple Google search.

The fact that you'd even ask that question despite it being so blatantly obvious to anyone who cares enough to find out speaks volumes...

37 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

And lastly a question, if legislating people into prosperity worked then why not just push for a minimum wage of $50 an hour? Lol

If it didn't work then why not just eliminate the minimum wage entirely? Why not just abolish all public schools, as well as any and all social programs such as social security, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, etc. while we're at it? Get rid of any and all social programs and see how far people go. Should be blatantly obvious what the results would be.

I say that of course facetiously, but knowing my luck there'd probably be some anarcho-capitalist nut job come in here and read this and get a hard on over a proposal like that... :blink:

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F3SS

Although I can't state enough times that a living wage isnt a thing and doesn't have a definition. Does a 40 year old burger flipper with a wife and two kids make the same as a 20 year old single person or should the 40 year old get $30/hr ehile the 20 year old gets $15 for the same job? It's a fallacy.

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Michelle
34 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

medical care - now this is where things will get hairy, because while we could factor potential health care into the living wage, that would create an unfair environment, as the healthy are given free money for being healthy while the choniclyl I’ll are being punished for something that might be not their fault. Also, health care is expensive. It would also push up the living wage. We could have a government healthcare provider I suppose.

An employer of mine provided half of the money for my health insurance every month. It so happened that other people on the policy had babies, chronic health issues, etc. I never even reached my deductible every year. He told me the insurance premiums were going up and he was going to have to take more out of my check. I told him not to blame me. I wasn't the one driving them up, his family was. I payed the same amount I always had for the next two years until I left the job. :lol:

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Tatetopa
18 minutes ago, joc said:

In the first place, I don't think you have even the most basic understanding of economics.  So...Economics 101:

The only reason for a business to exist is to help other people.  People need all kinds of help, from eating, to entertaining themselves, to having their cars repaired, etc.  But the business has to make a profit...otherwise...if they tried to help everyone for free they would very soon use up all their resources and perish.

When a business begins to grow it needs to hire new employees.  If businesses don't grow...then they don't hire any employees.  When there are less regulations and less taxes, businesses that want to grow do so at a much faster pace.  And so employment goes way up, and conversely, unemployment goes way down...like what we have right now.  Anyone who wants a job can find a job...and no one said anything is or has to be or should be easy!

Government projects don't produce any income...so how could they afford to pay new employees?  Make Work is a stupid idea not a good one.  It doesn't work.  It cannot work.  It has never worked.  Because it is economically impossible.   We have the lowest unemployment right now since Ronald Reagan.   And who did that?  Trump! And yet all the Socialists are clamoring on about how everyone should be able to get a job.  Well they already are able to if they want to...and again...just please people...just please stop talking about how it should be easy.  Nothing worth anything in this world is easy.

Thanks.

Businesses do not exist to help people.  They exist to make a profit.  They fill a need or demand for goods and services. That is capitalism.  They are not nor have they ever been social services to help people.  Businesses grow because they can profitably supply a demand.  If the demand exceeds their capacity, they expand.  Businesses are not in business to provide jobs or social services. They do not wish to fill the deficits in our educational system by teaching people how to read or show up on time.   Employees are a necessary evil that only get hired if there is no other way to supply production. In this day and age, it is as likely to be expansion through automation rather than hiring people.  Check out any modern factory and you will see how automation is replacing semi-skilled and some skilled workers.

I am with you on growth in business paralleling growth in employment.  I am not so sure that anybody that wants a job can find one, but most people can. 

"No one said anything has to be or should be easy": that is moralism, not economics. Economics is about making things as easy as possible.  You want no impediments in your supply chain.  You don't want to make it a challenge to buy your product.  And finally, my field, you want to design machinery and assembly lines with enough programming, automation aids and fail-safes that a person that finished in the bottom half of their high school can make a quality product for $12 dollars an hour.  If you have to hire a college graduate to run your machine, you pay double that and cut into your profits.  Business is here to make money, not train people in morals or ethics. That is society's job.

Socialism, if you can call it that comes in with public schools and our educational system.  Harvard graduates are not required to build a house or weld components, or machine parts.  But highly qualified people that go to trade schools and have a good basic education are.  This country will survive longer and better with good machinists than Harvard trained lawyers or bankers.  So one of the best things we can do for the survival of our economy is excellent basic education, trade schools, and apprenticeships. If that is socialism, it is our best hope.

Government projects don't produce any income so how could they afford to pay new employees?    Are you forgetting the TVA and Hoover Dam?  Electricity from Hoover Dam and others we built was a foundation for growth in Nevada and California.

We are not building dams now, but we have a grand project: let them build your wall.   Would you call that a boondoggle?  Even on this site there are a t least half a dozen people that tell us how much money the wall would save us. It will pay for all of those jobs.

Even if you pay them $15 dollars an hour, $5 billion dollars will provide 125,000 jobs for a year. Will the wall pay for itself or not? In the meantime, we get job training, new consumers and a thriving economy.

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CrimsonKing
42 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

I would institute a bare bones living wage for everyone. 

Absolutely not!...not on my dime!

If jim bob down the street is perfectly capable of getting off his ass and working but decides he's perfectly fine laying around on the couch all day then screw him!

He can do so on a street corner hungry,thirsty,and without power!

It's not the tax payers job to go to work and earn a living so nanny goverment can take a cut to provide food,shelter,and clothing for 28 year old children!

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