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RoofGardener

Deranged Democrat

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RoofGardener
50 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Man its funny how the political scales shift. I swear to god Trumpians of today are mimicking Clintonites of the 90's to a tee. First the cult of personality, then the erosion of truth and now theyre arguing in favor of big government. :mellow:

Im not saying youre a Trumpian but you are making their arguments here.

I'd hardly associate objecting to the abolition of the DSA with supporting 'big government' ? :unsure2:

As for the 'cult of personality', it's not MY fault if people worship me ! 

Now grovel before  my throne, you low-born oaf :D 

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Farmer77
Just now, RoofGardener said:

I'd hardly associate objecting to the abolition of the DSA with supporting 'big government' ? :unsure2:

Honestly an overreaching paramilitary organization that has access to all the data collected by our intelligence agencies as well as incontestable control over the life of the individual is what has historically been conservatives' worst nightmare about big government. Well that and for some weird reason having healthy and educated citizens but thats for another thread.

 

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RoofGardener
19 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Honestly an overreaching paramilitary organization that has access to all the data collected by our intelligence agencies as well as incontestable control over the life of the individual is what has historically been conservatives' worst nightmare about big government. Well that and for some weird reason having healthy and educated citizens but thats for another thread.

 

That is indeed scary, Farmer77. It appears that there are over 16 government agencies - starting with the FBI and thence the DoJ - that have access to unfiltered NSA intelligence information. In effect, the NSA has become a domestic spy agency. 

What kind of authoritarian - perhaps even fascist -  president could have OK'd such a thing ? What sort of power-mad political party could have approved such a dangerous arrangement ? 

Oh gosh.. it was Obama and the Democratic Party, wasn't it ? Which nicely ties in with the title of this post... "deranged democrat". 

Edited by RoofGardener
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Farmer77
35 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

That is indeed scary, Farmer77. It appears that there are over 16 government agencies - starting with the FBI and thence the DoJ - that have access to unfiltered NSA intelligence information. In effect, the NSA has become a domestic spy agency. 

What kind of authoritarian - perhaps even fascist -  president could have OK'd such a thing ? What sort of power-mad political party could have approved such a dangerous arrangement ? 

Oh gosh.. it was Obama and the Democratic Party, wasn't it ? Which nicely ties in with the title of this post... "deranged democrat". 

Sorry my dude and @RavenHawk Bush started it . George W. Bush was a republican

How We Got From 9/11 to Massive NSA Spying on Americans: A Timeline

Quote

2004

March: White House counsel Alberto Gonzales and Chief of Staff Andrew Card visit Attorney General John Ashcroft in the hospital seeking to persuade him to reauthorize the NSA’s domestic warrantless wiretapping program. The program will be revealed to the public a year and a half later by the New York Times.

2006

NSA’s National Security Operations Center NSA

March: The Patriot Act is reauthorized.

May: USA Today reports the NSA has been tracking millions of Americans’ phone calls with the help of major telecom companies. A few weeks later a former AT&T technician reveals that the company let the NSA tap into its fiber-optic lines in 2002, enabling it to monitor a majority of internet and phone traffic in the United States.

2007

September: Microsoft becomes the first major internet firm to cooperate with the NSA’s PRISM program, giving the NSA the ability to collect data on search history, email, file transfers and live chats. Over the next few years, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, and other companies become part of the program, which won’t be revealed to the public until 2013.

2008

July: Bush signs the FISA Amendments Act, which retroactively codifies the warrantless wiretapping program and compels telecoms and internet firms to give the government access to private communications if one party is “reasonably believed” to be outside the United States. It also gives telecoms retroactive immunity for handing over customers’ private data without a warrant.

2009

NSA headquarters NSA

January: Google begins giving data to the NSA under the PRISM program.

June: A federal judge upholds immunity for telecoms that handed over private information. The same day, Facebook starts participating in the NSA’s PRISM program.

2010

March 10: A federal judge rules that the NSA warrantless wiretapping program started during the Bush administration is illegal. The ruling, based on a 2006 lawsuit, will be overturned on a technicality in 2012.

 

Edited by Farmer77
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RavenHawk
13 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Sorry my dude and @RavenHawk Bush started it . George W. Bush was a republican

Yes, it started under Bush but not to create big government.  It was to reduce government and make it more efficient.  You had 17+ intel agencies stepping all over each other, duplicating work.  DHS was meant to coordinate effort.  It was mostly successful.  But by making surveillance easier, opened it up to abuse.  And sure enough, Obama abused it to weaponize the agencies against the American people.  FISA was a check on that power but when you have your sycophant underlings in place, they can abuse the power.  EO12333 was a parting shot by Obama to ensure there were abundant leaks available in the new Administration.

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RavenHawk

BTW, isn’t “Deranged Democrat” redundant?

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Big Jim
7 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Both are lethally intolerant of dissent or disagreement. 

Good phrase.  Describes their attitude perfectly.

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RoofGardener
2 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

Sorry my dude and @RavenHawk Bush started it . George W. Bush was a republican

How We Got From 9/11 to Massive NSA Spying on Americans: A Timeline

 

Actually Farmer77, the entire FISA system which started the ball rolling - dates back to 1978. It was proposed to the House by Ted "Chappaquiddick " Kennedy, and signed into law by President Jimmy "Deranged" Carter, notorious peanut snatcher ! 

They where both - I believe - Derangeocrats ? 

Edited by RoofGardener
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RavenHawk
10 hours ago, Likely Guy said:

That was one seriously screwed up representation.

Care to clarify?

It’s really quite clear.  It’s only your understanding that is seriously screwed up.  @RoofGardener succinctly stated it.  I can try to expand on it a bit but if you don’t understand it now, I doubt you’d understand it afterword.  Progressives do not compromise.  In Islam there is this concept called Shirk.  It is basically the same thing as no compromise.  At the same time both expect others to compromise.  That’s how both ideologies have been able to spread.  People will either reject that or acquiesce to it.  Your mindset seems to be one of acquiescence.  Aka Sheeple.

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Farmer77
2 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Yes, it started under Bush but not to create big government.  It was to reduce government and make it more efficient.  You had 17+ intel agencies stepping all over each other, duplicating work.  DHS was meant to coordinate effort.  It was mostly successful.  But by making surveillance easier, opened it up to abuse.  And sure enough, Obama abused it to weaponize the agencies against the American people.  FISA was a check on that power but when you have your sycophant underlings in place, they can abuse the power.  EO12333 was a parting shot by Obama to ensure there were abundant leaks available in the new Administration.

@RoofGardener

Like I said way earlier in the thread, it was started in the time when we all collectively lost our minds post 9/11.

It was also truly a bipartisan effort no one party should take the blame for the results of our collective panic attack.

It is also however "big government" regardless of how you try and spin it.

 

Edited by Farmer77
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preacherman76
41 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

@RoofGardener

Like I said way earlier in the thread, it was started in the time when we all collectively lost our minds post 9/11.

It was also truly a bipartisan effort no one party should take the blame for the results of our collective panic attack.

It is also however "big government" regardless of how you try and spin it.

 

I'd have no problem eliminating DHS. Or at least dialing it WAY back. If you look at how its evolved over the short time its existed, and this was easily predictable, it quickly turned from an agency meant to protect Americans from foreign countries, and terrorist organizations, to a full blown domestic spy grid. I personally believe that was the intention the entire time. Like you said, they basically took advantage of the strong emotion 9/11 brought to the collective. Most Americans, on either side of the coin, were all for whatever crap they were ready to push on us. And now that DHS exists, they just keep encroaching inch by inch.

As a libertarian, I find the DHS, the NSA, the TSA ect, to be some serious 1984 tyrannical crap. I know you don't care about Trump being spied on illegally, but that in its self is another example of how far this country has slipped down the tyrannical rabbit hole. That made Watergate look like a good time. Yet we just allow it, and many things similar to it to happen everyday. Snowden's documentary on the spy grid was very eye opening. I don't think there is ever going to be a way to put the genie back in that bottle. We officially live in a soft police state.

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Farmer77
2 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

As a libertarian, I find the DHS, the NSA, the TSA ect, to be some serious 1984 tyrannical crap. I know you don't care about Trump being spied on illegally, but that in its self is another example of how far this country has slipped down the tyrannical rabbit hole.

See thats not fair. I would care about it if it had actually happened.

3 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

I don't think there is ever going to be a way to put the genie back in that bottle. We officially live in a soft police state.

Absolutely. Our damn lightbulbs can spy on us now LIGHTBULBS

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RavenHawk
6 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

@RoofGardener

Like I said way earlier in the thread, it was started in the time when we all collectively lost our minds post 9/11.

It was also truly a bipartisan effort no one party should take the blame for the results of our collective panic attack.

It is also however "big government" regardless of how you try and spin it.

 

No, we didn’t lose our minds.  We got knocked on our collect butts but we got back up and kicked some butt ourselves.  We didn’t panic, we reacted with righteous anger.  The Patriot Act fell within the Necessary and Proper Clause.  The government needs such powers in order to protect us.  There is no blame for that, it is Constitutional.  Where the blame comes in is its abuse.  That is “big government”.  Obama crossed the line.  Bush used it against our enemies, Obama used it against our own people.

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preacherman76
29 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

See thats not fair. I would care about it if it had actually happened.

Of course it happened. This and much worse. They actually did what Trump is being accused of, in plain sight no less.

29 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Absolutely. Our damn lightbulbs can spy on us now LIGHTBULBS

Its freakin crazy. We got a new TV recently, and you literally couldn't get it to work at all without connecting it to the internet. Why the hell would a TV HAVE to be connected to the internet just to get it to work at all?

I cant remember his name off hand, but one of the heads of the CIA who was retiring at the time (I'm thinking 5 years ago maybe?) straight said every new appliance comes with means to spy on people. Heck the newer "smart meters" for electricity can hear every word spoken in your house through the wires. Through our phones they can hear everything, take pictures and video's. I just had to move the book I wrote to a basic word program cause yahoo and google wont allow me to continue using their services without letting them spy on me through every website I go to, every private phone call and text message I make. Even said they'd be reading the private messages I send and receive on places like this site.

All electronic communications would be fair game to them. You'd think a internet revolution would be taking place right now over this. Instead most agreed to it without even knowing or caring what they agreed to. I haven't really spend much time studying end times over the last few years, nor do I think this necessarily the case, but this whole situation looks remarkably like the mark of the beast system long foretold.

 

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RavenHawk
9 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

All electronic communications would be fair game to them. You'd think a internet revolution would be taking place right now over this. Instead most agreed to it without even knowing or caring what they agreed to. I haven't really spend much time studying end times over the last few years, nor do I think this necessarily the case, but this whole situation looks remarkably like the mark of the beast system long foretold.

We had the same thing when bar codes came out and I think with credit cards before that, but we survived.  I think a revolution is taking place, it’s more covert and underground than anything else.  But for a young entrepreneur, they could build sets without that functionality or have a process to deactivate existing sets.  Make the consumer aware and let consumer choice drive the market.  That is perhaps the greatest equalizer.

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Farmer77
11 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

. I just had to move the book I wrote to a basic word program cause yahoo and google wont allow me to continue using their services without letting them spy on me through every website I go to, every private phone call and text message I make. Even said they'd be reading the private messages I send and receive on places like this site.

I confess ive mostly given up the battle. My work functions entirely on Google Drive so they are with me at all times, on both phones and of course in my home office. Like the Borg resistance is futile.

I still do my best to limit what I can but damn, there is so little that we can actually limit without cutting ourselves off completely its become pointless.

I still dont have a "smart tv" and I definitely dont have an Alexa or Google Assistant, IDK that ill ever be fully comfortable with granting that level of surveillance.

not-good1.jpg

 

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preacherman76
39 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

No, we didn’t lose our minds.  We got knocked on our collect butts but we got back up and kicked some butt ourselves.  We didn’t panic, we reacted with righteous anger.  The Patriot Act fell within the Necessary and Proper Clause.  The government needs such powers in order to protect us.  There is no blame for that, it is Constitutional.  Where the blame comes in is its abuse.  That is “big government”.  Obama crossed the line.  Bush used it against our enemies, Obama used it against our own people.

 

You know I got nothing but love for ya RH, and agree with ya more often then not, but I seriously disagree with this. Aside from finding Osama, basically everything they did in the middle east was completely unconstitutional, and the outcome was predictably horrible. Bush and Obama were playing for the same team, and each played their rolls exactly as they were told to do. We certainly are not any safer because of them or their actions. 

I remember seeing a video with an ex CIA agent talking about their plans for the middle east back in like 03 I believe. Nearly everything he said came to fruition. The election of Trump is the only reason they haven't accomplished everything they sought out to do, which was basically nearly the complete destabilization of the middle east. The destruction of Iran and Syria where the final pieces to the puzzle, and I expect, regardless of who gets in office once Trump is gone, that will be back on the table.

I don't understand how anyone could think the patriot act was either necessary or proper. Its flat out illegal, and is a stain on what's supposed to be a free country.

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preacherman76
32 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

I confess ive mostly given up the battle. My work functions entirely on Google Drive so they are with me at all times, on both phones and of course in my home office. Like the Borg resistance is futile.

I still do my best to limit what I can but damn, there is so little that we can actually limit without cutting ourselves off completely its become pointless.

I still dont have a "smart tv" and I definitely dont have an Alexa or Google Assistant, IDK that ill ever be fully comfortable with granting that level of surveillance.

I've been deeply considering for some time now to go back to the most basic flip phone I could find, and to go back to living like it was 1990 again. Thing is I just don't know if that's really possible. My wife and kids look at me like I have two heads when I bring up any concerns. Si I get it when you say you have basically given up the fight. They have made it so its nearly impossible to live without it. I gotta believe though that all it would take is enough people to care enough to make a stand, and they would at least have to go back to just stealing all our info behind our backs, instead of getting us to agree to it.

 

This 5G crap has me concerned as well. Like we aren't already cooking our brains enough already

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Setton
On 10/02/2019 at 4:04 PM, Vlad the Mighty said:

"Terrorists (TM) are threatening us from all sides. We must have Government Agencies to protect us."

"But the existing Government Agencies singularly failed to prevent 9/11, if you believe the official theory as to events." 

"So what we need is one more even more gigantic Government agency, that'll protect us." 

Does this make logical sense?

Yes, yes and almost - not more gigantic but better resourced and employed. 

22 hours ago, Big Jim said:

I would take out "almost".  Since she is a member of the same group that most terrorists claim to fight for and one of the stated goals of any of our defense agencies is to combat terrorism I see her actions and intentions as being an accomplice to terrorism.  Having people on the inside to help take down defenses certainly helps those who want to infiltrate or attack us from the outside.  

Specifically, a subgroup of that group despised by some of the most dangerous terrorists in the world. Therefore by attacking her, you further the goals of those terrorists and I view you as an accomplice. Traitor. 

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MWoo7
22 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Like the Borg resistance is futile.

A framer ... or one for 'MODERN PROVERBS'  book.

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RoofGardener
1 hour ago, Farmer77 said:

@RoofGardener

Like I said way earlier in the thread, it was started in the time when we all collectively lost our minds post 9/11.

It was also truly a bipartisan effort no one party should take the blame for the results of our collective panic attack.

It is also however "big government" regardless of how you try and spin it.

 

Yup.. except the seeds where planted in 1978. And whilst it might have been "bipartisan", it was the Democrats that pushed for it mostest :D

Until Trump came along, and now they are pooping their pants as they realise just what a dandy weapon they have handed him. 

"Oooops"

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RoofGardener
11 minutes ago, Setton said:

Yes, yes and almost - not more gigantic but better resourced and employed. 

Specifically, a subgroup of that group despised by some of the most dangerous terrorists in the world. Therefore by attacking her, you further the goals of those terrorists and I view you as an accomplice. Traitor. 

She is a member of a sub-group that is despised by the 'most dangerous terrorists in the world' ? 

Could you elaborate ? 

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RoofGardener
1 hour ago, Farmer77 said:

@RoofGardener

Like I said way earlier in the thread, it was started in the time when we all collectively lost our minds post 9/11.

It was also truly a bipartisan effort no one party should take the blame for the results of our collective panic attack.

It is also however "big government" regardless of how you try and spin it.

 

I'd just like to point out that I did NOT "lose my mind" post 9/11. 

And my giant invisible lobster agrees with me, so THERE !!!! 

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preacherman76
44 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

We had the same thing when bar codes came out and I think with credit cards before that, but we survived.  I think a revolution is taking place, it’s more covert and underground than anything else.  But for a young entrepreneur, they could build sets without that functionality or have a process to deactivate existing sets.  Make the consumer aware and let consumer choice drive the market.  That is perhaps the greatest equalizer.

For me, its not really a question of survival. Its more about the standards our founders set for us in what we have all agreed, up till recent years, was the basic foundation of freedom. Bar codes and credit cards weren't spying on every communication. We are literally in a situation where the government can turn on a computer and listen to you right in your own living room. Can watch you through your TV, or phone.

I agree that informing people, with historical context though, could be huge in deterring this spy grid. There doesn't seem to be any will, so far as I can see anyway, for that to happen though. Most people seem perfectly content in their digital prisons.

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Setton
2 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

She is a member of a sub-group that is despised by the 'most dangerous terrorists in the world' ? 

Could you elaborate ? 

Well she's either Sunni or Shia. So she's either hated by ISIS (if she's Shia) or Iranian militias (if she's Sunni).

Either way, I'm right and Big Jim is working towards the same goals as terrorists. 

 

 

Or maybe we should just stay clear of sweeping generalisations where religion is concerned? 

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