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RoofGardener

Deranged Democrat

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Jerry Gallo
7 minutes ago, aztek said:

with UBI they push,  that amount will grow like mushrooms after rain, it is not sustainable, they will have to tax working people to twice or three times the rate, how long will it take for civil disobedience or civil war to brake out under such conditions?   no way they do not see it, they want to get to a point of civil war, 

Fortunately there are enough special interests funding them that won't let this get too far out of control. Remember when Bill Maher flipped his nutty about taxes? It's fine and well when it's someone else, but vanity and self-preservation within the ranks is still prevalent. Also see socialist Bernie with this three houses. The biggest lie out there is the one the intelligent liberal mind falls for when their own emotions scream it in their ear. 

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RAyMO
31 minutes ago, Jerry Gallo said:

Look at the welfare system, five decades and trillions spent and no real improvement for those in need.

The requirement for a welfare state is a direct result of the societal and economic model under which must countries including the US operate. The existence of the welfare state is nothing more than governments owning up to that fact. To do otherwise is both to deny the societal and economic model you glamourise, and  potentially to diminish its longevity.

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Farmer77
1 hour ago, Jerry Gallo said:

And here is an article discussing the decline in farming since 2013.

Sigh yes farming has been in trouble for quite some time. I think Willy's first Farm Aid concert was in the early 80's......

1 hour ago, Jerry Gallo said:

And here's an article about Trump for you...he gave you $12B and you still p*** and moan

LOL not my type of farming....but...um......so.....you do realize they wouldnt have needed that particular emergency 12billion if it werent for the absurd tariff fiasco right? Trump Administration Plans $12 Billion In Farm Aid To Offset Tariffs

1 hour ago, Jerry Gallo said:

As for the coal industry, we are not talking about what Trump has promised to do. We're talking facts about coal miners suffering from Obama's attempt to destroy (his word was bankrupt) the coal industry for no other reason than to placate liberal tree huggers. Guarantee no one was whimpering about them crying in a bar or pot-shotting people about success or failure when those mines were closed and those families were struggling. Liberalism is inconsistent and filled with hypocrisy just like this every single day. 

Setting aside the ignorance wrapping your comment about " no other reason than to placate liberal tree huggers"  youve been lied to broseph.

Coal is dying. Its just not efficient anymore, its dying today despite Trump's rhetoric and "efforts" just like it was dying two plus years ago. Those families need new education and new vocations. That has nothing to do with over regulation

 

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Jerry Gallo
1 hour ago, Farmer77 said:

Sigh yes farming has been in trouble for quite some time. I think Willy's first Farm Aid concert was in the early 80's......

LOL not my type of farming....but...um......so.....you do realize they wouldnt have needed that particular emergency 12billion if it werent for the absurd tariff fiasco right? Trump Administration Plans $12 Billion In Farm Aid To Offset Tariffs

Setting aside the ignorance wrapping your comment about " no other reason than to placate liberal tree huggers"  youve been lied to broseph.

Coal is dying. Its just not efficient anymore, its dying today despite Trump's rhetoric and "efforts" just like it was dying two plus years ago. Those families need new education and new vocations. That has nothing to do with over regulation

 

LOL, so farmers have been asking for handouts that long? Begs the question, has farming always been a generational burden for the taxpayer, or does the inability to run a farm business successfully today come from a lack of handed down knowledge and work ethic? More likely, each generation wants to do a little less work for a little more profit, a cultural sign of the times. 

Your argument might have an ounce of credibility if the plight for farmers were sudden, but we know for a fact that isn't the case. 

As well, you continue to use tangent, empty rhetoric about the coal industry. If the industry became organically obsolete on it's own, that's a situation those in the industry would have to deal with. What you can't deny or explain away is that Obama said the words he wanted to force it's extinction. Didn't affect you, so to hell with them, right? The shoe is now on your foot, the effects are unintended consequence, not proactive Executive activism, and Trump threw farmers a bone. Respect the attempt to spin away from it, but it's indisputable.

 

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Gromdor
1 minute ago, Jerry Gallo said:

LOL, so farmers have been asking for handouts that long? Begs the question, has farming always been a generational burden for the taxpayer, or does the inability to run a farm business successfully today come from a lack of handed down knowledge and work ethic? More likely, each generation wants to do a little less work for a little more profit, a cultural sign of the times. 

Your argument might have an ounce of credibility if the plight for farmers were sudden, but we know for a fact that isn't the case. 

As well, you continue to use tangent, empty rhetoric about the coal industry. If the industry became organically obsolete on it's own, that's a situation those in the industry would have to deal with. What you can't deny or explain away is that Obama said the words he wanted to force it's extinction. Didn't affect you, so to hell with them, right? The shoe is now on your foot, the effects are unintended consequence, not proactive Executive activism, and Trump threw farmers a bone. Respect the attempt to spin away from it, but it's indisputable.

 

I'll let you in on a dirty secret.  Both the farm and dairy industries are heavily subsidized.  Has been for decades.  Some argue corporate welfare, others national security.  We pay more welfare to businesses and corporations than citizens.

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RavenHawk
12 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

After all of our discussions about fencing,  I surely agree that enough of it in all the strategic places is necessary.

I never thought anything differently.  I think where the perception was misunderstood came in when Trump first declared the desire for a “great wall”.  It stimulated images of the Great Wall of China.  But most people’s perception of that great wall is incorrect.  Even that wall is not a single length of massive brick like what is seen around Beijing.  The majority of the 13k miles of it is a mix of non-contiguous stone & earthen works segments and utilized terrain.  In the western provinces, the wall has deteriorated to earthen mounds.  There were many segments and layers overlapping creating a maze.  There were fortresses, barracks, check points, and little villages in support for agriculture all along the wall.  Every year now, new segments continue to be discovered which adds to the depth (not the length) of the wall.  This is my perception of what the southern border wall should be, several defensive layers using everything at our command, low tech, high tech, wall, fence, berm, ditch, man-made, natural terrain, overlapping, sensors, cameras, drones, and finally people to man and maintain it.  Detractors cannot and will not get beyond the single 30’ high brick wall coast-to-coast concept.  Even Trump doesn’t think that is going to be the final form of the wall.  A ‘full’ wall is his bargaining position.  Progs don’t know how to bargain and that has to drive Trump crazy.

 

Even working needs some limits.  We don't currently have a clue how many invisible illegals we depend on to get work done in the US and keep the economy flowing.  If that number is 5 million, or 10 million, that is how many permits we get to issue.  Permanent work permits for long term stable jobs and seasonal permits for short term.

That’s the point, we don’t depend on illegals.  We should endeavor to get that number.  But the one thing with people illegally crossing the border or over staying a visa is that they take jobs that Americans can and do work.  This excuse that they do the jobs Americans don’t want to do is false.  These jobs are already being done by majority American workers.  What is happening is that the illegals are being exploited at cheaper wages and in turn that undercuts the wages of our own working poor.  That has a trickle up effect.

 

Maintain state of the art ports of entry with flow capabilities to match our needs.  Keep the drugs out.   

I agree but I’ll ask the question again.  When we stop the drugs 100% at the checkpoints, where are they going to go?

 

Only citizens should vote, I agree with that too.How that will be done remains to be seen.

Showing a photo ID when you go vote would help.  The excuses around that are just excuses.  If you feel intimidated for showing your ID, then you are not responsible enough to vote.  You are not being discriminated against.  It costs too much to get an ID or too inconvenient also shows a lack of responsibility.  People have no problem finding ID for a welfare check or EBT.  Enjoying a Right also includes taking Responsibility for that Right.  If you don’t take the Responsibility seriously, then you lose the Right by your own action.

 

Where we diverge is our assumptions about motives. I admit my experience is limited, but I have hired a lot of Hispanic for entry level jobs in foundries, somewhere in the neighborhood of a hundred over the years.   They worked hard, worked overtime if they could get it, were seldom sick, and took good care of my companies machinery.  I assume they were all here legally, we had to do the background check on all new employees.  They had far better attendance and productivity than their raised in america  counterparts.  We get far better results from Hispanics and Asian workers of any age than we get from 18-24 year old "ordinary" Americans.

Race has nothing to do with it.  If you recall the quote from Washington, it is about character.  Those that sneak in are less likely to be ‘hard workers’.  They put more of a drain on our system than they help.  Of course with that said, there are exceptions. 

 

My father-in-law was an immigrant from Poland by way of the Soviet gulags.  He became a naturalized citizen in ’52 at the age of 15 and went to work at the Ford foundry in Cleveland.  When he retired, moved to St Pete’s and we go visit from time to time.  He worked hard and enjoys his retirement.  He’s still a big barrel of a guy in his 80s.  It doesn’t take me long to transition to beach bum.  He is very opinionated and we’ll sit under an umbrella and make completely non-PC comments about how much fat is on the beach.  My wife exclaims that she married her father. :D

 

I think Hispanics come here to work not freeload.  Where they grew up there is no culture of freeloading, they were not raised to do that.   So I am willing to call that a questionable claim. 

Like I said, there are exceptions.  Foundry work does not draw the weak hearted/back.  Plus where freeloading in one culture means one thing, can mean something else in another.  I have friends living on Roatan (a Honduran island in the Caribbean).  They have nothing but complaints about the work ethic of the locals.  It goes back to character.  If you are of good character, you will want to do things the right way.  Of course, if illegals had character in the first place, they would stay in their country or legally immigrate.

 

Same with the voting.  A lot of Hispanic values are conservative, they would probably vote with Republicans on a lot of issues.

In general that is true and in time, those that do assimilate will indeed become conservative.  But the more poverty you can stream in to this country, the more unstable it will be and primed to usurp power.  The more poverty there is, the people will have their hands out, not worried about their politics.  That’s why the Progs need the border perpetually open.  The Progs can target our compassion to waste our wealth to weaken us for the purpose to create anarchy.

 

This idea of political bosses meeting people at the border with voter registration cards and twenty dollars  is a hold over from New York ward bosses and Tammany Hall greeting the Irish (legal of course) immigrants.  I do not think there is evidence for it today. 

Old tricks are the best tricks.  It’s just modernized.  These caravans are organized and supported for their journey here.  The ‘bosses’ go to them.

 

Voter fraud investigations have turned up only a handful of cases.

That can only mean one of two things.  One, there really isn’t a lot of voter fraud or two, it is so rampant and these investigations are inept (they wouldn’t be able to find a needle in a stack of needles.  Common sense tells one to believe human nature.  If there is a way to cheat, someone will.

 

Even though I believe that immigrants come here to work hard and there is little evidence of voter fraud, I still favor secure borders.

I believe that legal immigrants come here to work and be successful.  Illegals are trying to escape their predicaments from where they come from but they are not aware that they bring that environment with them.  They rarely can escape it.  We don’t need it here.

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Farmer77
4 minutes ago, Jerry Gallo said:

 Didn't affect you, so to hell with them, right?

Actually it does affect me and every other human on earth so yeah, to hell with them.

Can you provide a link to Obama saying that BTW?

7 minutes ago, Jerry Gallo said:

Your argument might have an ounce of credibility if the plight for farmers were sudden, but we know for a fact that isn't the case. 

Which argument? That farmers were economically hurt by the Tariffs? Oh hell why am I even wasting time talking to you? :lol:

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Gromdor
3 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Actually it does affect me and every other human on earth so yeah, to hell with them.

Can you provide a link to Obama saying that BTW?

Which argument? That farmers were economically hurt by the Tariffs? Oh hell why am I even wasting time talking to you? :lol:

Heh, the only reason we are even discussing farmers is because he was desperately grasping for any reason not to send the migrants to Iowa. 

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RavenHawk
1 hour ago, Farmer77 said:

Coal is dying. Its just not efficient anymore, its dying today despite Trump's rhetoric and "efforts" just like it was dying two plus years ago. Those families need new education and new vocations. That has nothing to do with over regulation

It is?  You better go tell the market that.

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Gromdor
2 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

It is?  You better go tell the market that.

I just came from the market.  There was no coal there at all for my coal burning stove!  What are they going to use to make our locomotives go? I tried the local power plant in town, but can you believe they are burning yard waste?  And they don't even generate that much power anymore because of all those cancer causing windmills we have everywhere! 

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Jerry Gallo
15 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Actually it does affect me and every other human on earth so yeah, to hell with them.

Can you provide a link to Obama saying that BTW?

Which argument? That farmers were economically hurt by the Tariffs? Oh hell why am I even wasting time talking to you? :lol:

Yeah, probably not a good idea to talk to me when you refuse to acknowledge the article that stated farmers were struggling long before Trump or his tariffs. Who did you whine about back then? 

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Farmer77
Just now, Jerry Gallo said:

Yeah, probably not a good idea to talk to me when you refuse to acknowledge the article that stated farmers were struggling long before Trump or his tariffs. Who did you whine about back then? 

What? Wasnt I the one who mentioned Farm Aid in the 80's??? :lol:

Im gonna go ahead and say that is acknowledging that farmers were struggling long before the lost trade war. However things were made much worse by said trade war. So much worse in fact that Trump realized he was risking losing voters so he gave the 12b to bail them out.

This is common knowledge.

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RavenHawk
7 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

I just came from the market.  There was no coal there at all for my coal burning stove!  What are they going to use to make our locomotives go? I tried the local power plant in town, but can you believe they are burning yard waste?  And they don't even generate that much power anymore because of all those cancer causing windmills we have everywhere! 

A simple google gives this:

 

Coal is one of the main sources of fossil fuel energy. Roughly 146 quadrillion BTUs of coal were consumed worldwide in 2012. That means about 30% of the world's energy comes from coal. Additionally, coal generates over 40% of the world's electricity and over 70% of the world's steel production.

Dying?

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Farmer77
6 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

A simple google gives this:

 

 

 

Coal is one of the main sources of fossil fuel energy. Roughly 146 quadrillion BTUs of coal were consumed worldwide in 2012. That means about 30% of the world's energy comes from coal. Additionally, coal generates over 40% of the world's electricity and over 70% of the world's steel production.

 

Dying?

A simple google also gives this:

Coal Plants Are Closing, Despite Trump’s Efforts

Quote

oal is on a downward swing despite President Donald Trump’s best efforts to frame himself as a champion of the industry. According to data from the U.S. Energy Information Administration, more coal power plants closed during Trump’s first two years in the White House than in Obama’s entire first term

Regardless of who’s in the White House, the price of coal is failing to remain competitive against that of natural gas, and the fuel that fired the Industrial Revolution is now getting pushed out by more environmentally-friendly renewable energies.

 

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Gromdor
4 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

A simple google gives this:

 

 

 

Coal is one of the main sources of fossil fuel energy. Roughly 146 quadrillion BTUs of coal were consumed worldwide in 2012. That means about 30% of the world's energy comes from coal. Additionally, coal generates over 40% of the world's electricity and over 70% of the world's steel production.

 

Dying?

Yup.  Those numbers used to be a lot higher and are declining every year: https://climatenexus.org/climate-issues/energy/whats-driving-the-decline-of-coal-in-the-united-states/

My company used to do a couple million in business every year repairing the aluminum lagging on the precipitator of a coal plant here in Iowa.  They burned high sulfur coal which caused quite a bit of annual caustic damage.  They shut that plant down and put up a natural gas combined cycle generator instead.  Cheaper, better, and cycles on and off easier when combined with the wind turbines.  The old coal plant was designed for continuous use, the coal companies were starting to charge more for the coal for shipping and everything, and it was dirtier. 

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Jerry Gallo
42 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Heh, the only reason we are even discussing farmers is because he was desperately grasping for any reason not to send the migrants to Iowa. 

In my defense, this was before I knew y'all needed a crutch to be successful. 

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Tatetopa
39 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

I agree but I’ll ask the question again.  When we stop the drugs 100% at the checkpoints, where are they going to go?

Indeed, I don't want to argue against logic, just uncover the best course..  That is why I do agree that there must be barriers.

 

45 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

A ‘full’ wall is his bargaining position.  Progs don’t know how to bargain and that has to drive Trump crazy.

Well, I'm not so sure about that.  No wall is their bargaining position.  Both sides dance around and save face with their constituents and in the end meet in the middle somewhere.

Now I would say it is the North Koreans who don't know how to bargain.  The President gives them a note:  shut down all of your nuclear facilities and turn over all of your material to the US.  Kim doesn't see that as a bargaining position from President Trump.   He thinks it is an insult from a guy he was building a relationship with.  For him, it is "Forget lunch, we are done."

Nancy Pelosi on the other hand knows the game.  She says no but means, "What are you willing to give to make it worth my while?".

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RavenHawk
10 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

A simple google also gives this:

Coal Plants Are Closing, Despite Trump’s Efforts

 

No doubt these are older inefficient plants that are closing.  There is no way that alternative sources of energy are going to carry the load coal provides anytime soon.  The San Juan power plant was slated to be shut down in 2022 but it has a reprieve.  It has been around since the 60s.

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Jerry Gallo
31 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

What? Wasnt I the one who mentioned Farm Aid in the 80's??? :lol:

Im gonna go ahead and say that is acknowledging that farmers were struggling long before the lost trade war. However things were made much worse by said trade war. So much worse in fact that Trump realized he was risking losing voters so he gave the 12b to bail them out.

This is common knowledge.

Sounds like y'all should look inward to solve the 1980 to 2016 problem, Trump is the least of your worries, even if he begets the most noise. 

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Gromdor
16 minutes ago, Jerry Gallo said:

Sounds like y'all should look inward to solve the 1980 to 2016 problem, Trump is the least of your worries, even if he begets the most noise. 

Well, you see, farmers control the food.  If they get mad, it's everyone's problem.  If they go broke, it's everyone's problem.  We can get rid of the subsidies on things like milk.  You would be paying $8/gallon.  But we could get rid of it.  And for some silly reason, politicians, both R and D alike, don't seem to want America to be reliant on foreign food imports to feed the populace. 

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Tatetopa
1 hour ago, Jerry Gallo said:

LOL, so farmers have been asking for handouts that long? Begs the question, has farming always been a generational burden for the taxpayer, or does the inability to run a farm business successfully today come from a lack of handed down knowledge and work ethic? More likely, each generation wants to do a little less work for a little more profit, a cultural sign of the times. 

Boy, that ranks right up there with saying the sound of windmills causes cancer. 

More likely competition from corporate farms drives them out just like Walmart pushes out main street businesses. When did conservatives start kissing  butt on big corporations and start talking about JOBS instead of trades, family businesses, and family farms as the way to build a strong America with strong independent, self-reliant people?  You are destroying the very people who would be the conservatives of the next generation and creating the corporate-dependent welfare state you claim to oppose..  

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Tatetopa
40 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

There is no way that alternative sources of energy are going to carry the load coal provides anytime soon.

Yes, I believe that is true.  Unless you consider natural gas an alternative source.  Natural gas is more likely to displace coal in the short term than wind farms or solar panels.

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RavenHawk
1 hour ago, Gromdor said:

Yup.  Those numbers used to be a lot higher and are declining every year: https://climatenexus.org/climate-issues/energy/whats-driving-the-decline-of-coal-in-the-united-states/

Natural gas is the replacement for coal in the area of producing electricity.  And it takes time to convert coal plants to natural gas or build new plants.  It is cleaner but it is still a fossil fuel.  And if we are going to meet AOC’s goal of rebuilding every building, we are going to need a lot of new steel and there is nothing better than coal for steel production.  Alternative sources of energy still cannot take up the slack that fossil fuels do.  The coal industry is going through a heavy period of correcting.  It can’t crash too fast or our economy will collapse.  I hope you realize that??  There will be break throughs in research in burning coal cleaner.  By the time it is over, there will be a leaner, cleaner industry.

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RavenHawk
12 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Yes, I believe that is true.  Unless you consider natural gas an alternative source.  Natural gas is more likely to displace coal in the short term than wind farms or solar panels.

Natural gas is an alternative source of fossil fuel.  Solar, wind, water, geothermal, nuclear are what I consider alternative sources of energy.  Solar creates too much toxic waste.  Wind requires too much territory and is dangerous to its surroundings.  Water is good for local uses.  Geo and nuclear (fusion) are the future.  But fusion just isn’t here yet.  I estimate that we will still need fossil fuels as our primary source for easily the next two hundred years.

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Gromdor
7 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Natural gas is the replacement for coal in the area of producing electricity.  And it takes time to convert coal plants to natural gas or build new plants.  It is cleaner but it is still a fossil fuel.  And if we are going to meet AOC’s goal of rebuilding every building, we are going to need a lot of new steel and there is nothing better than coal for steel production.  Alternative sources of energy still cannot take up the slack that fossil fuels do.  The coal industry is going through a heavy period of correcting.  It can’t crash too fast or our economy will collapse.  I hope you realize that??  There will be break throughs in research in burning coal cleaner.  By the time it is over, there will be a leaner, cleaner industry.

 

Seems about every 2 years they put a new natural gas plant up around here.  They just finished one in Marshalltown, Iowa and are putting one up in Beloit, Wisconsin.  Around the same time frame we decommissioned three coal plants and put no new ones up.  In my region for the company, I am down to maintaining one coal plant and three natural gas plants.  Thousands of wind turbines have gone up.  This trend has been going on for over a decade.  I imagine in other decade they will have shut down my last coal plant as well.

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