Mexico border wall: Trump defends emergency

[RavenHawk]

2 minutes ago, skliss said:

Right, and at the risk of repeating myself, people, regular people, see it. I think the only reason they are fighting it is because what will they have to run on in 2020 if Trump fixes immigration?

The economy is thriving, unemployment is at an all time low, especially in Afr-Amer and Hispanic communities,  we are out of several bad deals made by previous presidents and are in new ones that don't take heavy advantage of us.....this is all in only 2 years. Imagine what new and great things could be accomplished in 6 more years. The Dems are fighting an uphill battle here. They keep putting themselves in a position to take a negative stance on great happenings. Fixing the immigration system has been a platform to run on for over 30 years. If Trump fixes that......what's left for them to run on....we'll tax you more? People love that...lol

Progs have been running on lip service.  Then when you get someone not part of the Establishment that can get things done, they fight it.  And it exposes them for the crooks they are.  These people do not represent you, just their own pocketbook.  Is this what you want?  I’d say build the wall, lock the gate, and kick them outside!

[Tatetopa]

2 hours ago, hacktorp said:

I see.  So until then, you are going with the theory that says drug runners prefer the routes that fail 80% of the time.

Good thinking.

Greetings Hacktorp.  I don't think that is how the numbers work. Somewhere between 10-20%  of vehicles are inspected.   Some of those carry drugs.   People are apprehended  crossing between checkpoints. Some of them have drugs. Ratio of drugs in cars vs. drugs on foot 4 out of five pounds or grams or whatever do so in vehicles.

Only about 10-20% off vehicles are inspected.  Runners have 8  chances out of 10 not to be inspected. Pretty good odds for a gambling person.

So yes, if you can get 500 pounds across hidden in a delivery truck or family SUV with good odds of not being searched, it is preferable to finding 50 people fit enough to carry 10 pounds each of valuable cargo across mountains or desert  and not getting caught or disappearing with the goods once they make it across.  You only need to find 1 fool to drive  with the possibility of spending time in prison vs. 50 who are willing to risk their lives and still may be spending time in prison when they get caught.  Then, the drugs still have to make it on US roads in some vehicle to a distribution and marketing point, a city.   Then you have to consider  loose ends hacktorp.  If a driver rats on the cartel, there is only one person and one family to eliminate.  Going after 50 is a lot more work.

Think like a multi billion dollar businessman, these guys are and do.  According to the news stories, El Chapo's stash of funds from drug dealing is worth 3 times as much as President Trump's global real estate empire.   They have planes, submarines, tunnels and probably other ways to get drugs across.   

To combat them you have to detect and intercept all of those methods.  They may have a lot more resources and a lot more ability than to average terrorist cell. You have to think of them as a very sophisticated,  serious threat  not as a bunch of peasants hoofing across the desert with a  bag full of joints.

[toast]

By logic, if a wall is declared as the ultimate tool to avoid drug trafficking, all US prisons must be drug free zones because prisons are surrounded by a wall. Q: are all US prisons drug free zones?

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by toast

[ian hacktorp]

52 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Greetings Hacktorp.  I don't think that is how the numbers work. Somewhere between 10-20%  of vehicles are inspected.   Some of those carry drugs.   People are apprehended  crossing between checkpoints. Some of them have drugs. Ratio of drugs in cars vs. drugs on foot 4 out of five pounds or grams or whatever do so in vehicles.

Hi Tatetopa.  These numbers all come from ports of entry, so they do not represent what is happening elsewhere along the border.

Here is an article from 2011; back before Trump came along and the MSM could admit there was a problem:

Along Mexican border, US ranchers say they live in fear

Quote

While walking along a dirt road bordering his property, a South Texas farmer complained about living in fear of Mexican traffickers smuggling drugs and illegal immigrants across his land. He would later ask his visitor not to reveal his identity, for his safety and that of his family.

The Obama administration and many local officials have said the U.S.-Mexican border is safer than ever and that reports of violence on the American side are wildly exaggerated. But the farmer scoffed at that argument. "I walk this soil every day and have since I was old enough to come out on my own," he said. "In this part of Texas, it is worse than it's ever been."

During a recent interview, (Barry) McCaffrey said that while major cities along the Texas border are "pretty safe," the rural areas between towns are "largely unprotected, and across those areas the (Mexican) cartels are conducting massive movements of illegal drugs and other criminal activity."

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/45440385/ns/nbc_nightly_news_with_brian_williams/t/along-mexican-border-us-ranchers-say-they-live-fear/#.XGsKEehKjD4

So, you see that the problem is widespread along the border, and includes large expanses of private property where the land owners live in fear from the constant use of their land by criminal traffickers of drugs and humans.

It seems these "multi-billion dollar businessmen" have figured out numerous, effective ways to get their contraband into the US.  Makes sense to me.

[skliss]

2 hours ago, toast said:

By logic, if a wall is declared as the ultimate tool to avoid drug trafficking, all US prisons must be drug free zones because prisons are surrounded by a wall. Q: are all US prisons drug free zones?

 

I'm  sorry, that's just........dumb.....

[Gromdor]

2 minutes ago, skliss said:

I'm  sorry, that's just........dumb.....

Now you know how we feel when posters say that a border wall will solve all our drug/immigration/crime/terrorism problems.

[skliss]

1 minute ago, Gromdor said:

Now you know how we feel when posters say that a border wall will solve all our drug/immigration/crime/terrorism problems.

And that's just as dumb as his statement. No one has said anything like that. Hyperbole makes you look foolish.

[toast]

5 minutes ago, skliss said:

I'm  sorry, that's just........dumb.....

No, its pure logic.

[skliss]

1 minute ago, toast said:

No, its pure logic.

Not really. I know you aren't a dumb person so you have to realize that isn't a valid comparison but you said it anyway.

[RavenHawk]

3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Greetings Hacktorp.  I don't think that is how the numbers work. Somewhere between 10-20%  of vehicles are inspected.   Some of those carry drugs.   People are apprehended  crossing between checkpoints. Some of them have drugs. Ratio of drugs in cars vs. drugs on foot 4 out of five pounds or grams or whatever do so in vehicles.

All vehicles are stopped and the border agent briefly talks with the driver/occupants.  When they feel that something isn’t right, they then inspect the vehicle.  It isn’t a random 10-20%, implying that 80% of the total drugs get through.  They are very good at what they do.  They can usually tell when someone is lying or hiding something.  It is in those 10-20% that most of the drugs are caught.  What gets through may not be that significant.  Meanwhile, of the 20% of drugs that get seized in-between Ports of Entry, may only be 10% of what gets through.  Without seeing the actual ledger of the cartels, there is probably just as much getting through the PoE as there is across the border elsewhere.

 

So yes, if you can get 500 pounds across hidden in a delivery truck or family SUV with good odds of not being searched, it is preferable to finding 50 people fit enough to carry 10 pounds each of valuable cargo across mountains or desert  and not getting caught or disappearing with the goods once they make it across.  You only need to find 1 fool to drive  with the possibility of spending time in prison vs. 50 who are willing to risk their lives and still may be spending time in prison when they get caught.  Then, the drugs still have to make it on US roads in some vehicle to a distribution and marketing point, a city.   Then you have to consider  loose ends hacktorp.  If a driver rats on the cartel, there is only one person and one family to eliminate.  Going after 50 is a lot more work.

And how difficult is it to find 50 people that want to cross even to the point of endangering their children?  You have more of a chance *NOT* getting caught when you cross between PoE.  In surveillance film, you see people carrying 40lb packs if not more.  The coyotes would probably scatter the mules crossing the border, telling them to just head north.  Then after 20 miles or so, will gather them together at a rendezvous point where they will drop their packs for later pickup and will make their way to other locales.  A coyote that is a good tracker wouldn’t lose a mule (i.e. disappear).

 

Think like a multi billion dollar businessman, these guys are and do.  According to the news stories, El Chapo's stash of funds from drug dealing is worth 3 times as much as President Trump's global real estate empire.   They have planes, submarines, tunnels and probably other ways to get drugs across. 

Yes, and they probably push as much as they can by every means they have.  They have the full picture.  They know the real stats.  They don’t rely on Progressives or MSM to inform them of false information.

  

To combat them you have to detect and intercept all of those methods.  They may have a lot more resources and a lot more ability than to average terrorist cell. You have to think of them as a very sophisticated,  serious threat  not as a bunch of peasants hoofing across the desert with a  bag full of joints.

But peasants hoofing across the desert is indeed the cheapest method.  Many times low tech still beats unsupported high tech.  The attack method is ancient technology so ancient technology is ideal to defeat it.  When high tech supplements low tech, it is far more effective than high tech alone.

[Golden Duck]

5 hours ago, hacktorp said:

... the US/Asia border.

...

The what? 

[+susieice]

Nothing to say. How long has this been a recognized problem? By whom?

Edited February 18, 2019 by susieice

[+and-then]

13 hours ago, DingoLingo said:

Oh you will see a change on that .. probably in your life time.. I give it another 20 years.. then you will see restrictions in place.. it will take a couple of your judges to drop off the perch and be replaced..  but you will see it.. 

If and when that happens then those who allow it will deserve their chains.  

[ellapenella]

6 hours ago, Gromdor said:

You know...... Two of the "Coyotes" was Jared and Ivanka.  https://money.cnn.com/2017/05/06/news/jared-kushner-nicole-family-event/index.html

$500,000 is what they were charging the Chinese.

What are you talking about?

eta

 I think they were seeking to better the U.S . It's not exactly the same as what were talking about concerning illegal aliens and harmful drugs entering illegally.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Ellapennella

[ellapenella]

15 hours ago, DingoLingo said:

Oh you will see a change on that .. probably in your life time.. I give it another 20 years.. then you will see restrictions in place.. it will take a couple of your judges to drop off the perch and be replaced..  but you will see it.. 

I think that where you're at will be having problems in the next 20 years. 

Edited February 19, 2019 by Ellapennella

[Tatetopa]

3 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

All vehicles are stopped and the border agent briefly talks with the driver/occupants.  When they feel that something isn’t right, they then inspect the vehicle.  It isn’t a random 10-20%, implying that 80% of the total drugs get through.  They are very good at what they do.  They can usually tell when someone is lying or hiding something.  It is in those 10-20% that most of the drugs are caught.  What gets through may not be that significant.  Meanwhile, of the 20% of drugs that get seized in-between Ports of Entry, may only be 10% of what gets through.  Without seeing the actual ledger of the cartels, there is probably just as much getting through the PoE as there is across the border elsewhere.

Good point. 

 

3 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

And how difficult is it to find 50 people that want to cross even to the point of endangering their children?  You have more of a chance *NOT* getting caught when you cross between PoE.  In surveillance film, you see people carrying 40lb packs if not more.  The coyotes would probably scatter the mules crossing the border, telling them to just head north.  Then after 20 miles or so, will gather them together at a rendezvous point where they will drop their packs for later pickup and will make their way to other locales.  A coyote that is a good tracker wouldn’t lose a mule (i.e. disappear).

It could be done this way.  What does Homeland Security and ICE have to say about it, anything?

 

3 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Yes, and they probably push as much as they can by every means they have.  They have the full picture.  They know the real stats.  They don’t rely on Progressives or MSM to inform them of false information.

They do have the full picture, none of us do.  I don't think misinformation or gullibility is limited to progressives and MSM. I guess we will see after the wall gets built how well it works and if anything changes.

[Gromdor]

37 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

What are you talking about?

eta

 I think they were seeking to better the U.S . It's not exactly the same as what were talking about concerning illegal aliens and harmful drugs entering illegally.

You might think they were bettering the US, but the US government thought they were just selling green cards and the opportunity for anchor baby citizenship for personal profit: https://thinkprogress.org/as-white-house-pushes-new-restrictions-kushner-under-scrutiny-for-issuing-green-cards-to-investors-27c8ad600b5e/

There is even investigations on whether Kushner used his political position to influence that program: https://www.newsweek.com/jared-kushner-company-visa-eb-5-1254829

[+DieChecker]

3 hours ago, Gromdor said:

Now you know how we feel when posters say that a border wall will solve all our drug/immigration/crime/terrorism problems.

Was there someone who said that? Most people want it to be part of a system guarding the border.

Otherwise we wouldn't need the Border Patrol, or points of entry. Has anyone said that?

[+DieChecker]

3 hours ago, toast said:

6 hours ago, toast said:

By logic, if a wall is declared as the ultimate tool to avoid drug trafficking, all US prisons must be drug free zones because prisons are surrounded by a wall. Q: are all US prisons drug free zones?

No, its pure logic.

Now all you need is someone (Got a quote?) who thinks a wall is the "ultimate tool". 

Edited February 19, 2019 by DieChecker

[Gromdor]

2 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Was there someone who said that? Most people want it to be part of a system guarding the border.

Otherwise we wouldn't need the Border Patrol, or points of entry. Has anyone said that?

Eh, that even makes it worse.  I guess the posters were saying we have to have this wall and it won't even solve all of our drug/immigration/crime/terrorism problems.

[+DieChecker]

19 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

It will be interesting to see if this becomes anything:

 

With Americans Outraged Over Trump's 'Power Grab Based on Lies,' Nearly 250 President's Day Protests Planned Across the Country

 

So, 250 protests, with 10,000 people. So..... like 40 people at each event. 

Not impressive, IMHO. I'd rather see hundreds of people, not just a dozen holding a couple signs. Thousands make a statement, dozens get ignored.

[+DieChecker]

2 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Eh, that even makes it worse.  I guess the posters were saying we have to have this wall and it won't even solve all of our drug/immigration/crime/terrorism problems.

Heck, we ALREADY have barriers over most of the accessible border . This is basically just upgrades, and filling in holes. 

[+DieChecker]

10 hours ago, Agent0range said:

Really?  So when he was offered the entire $25 billion for the wall last year in exchange for DACA protections and he turned it down, was that compromising? 

Pelosi was offered DACA protections for 5 billion and turned it down. O didn't see any compromising on the House's part.... No Democrat high ground here, I am afraid.

[Gromdor]

Just now, DieChecker said:

Heck, we ALREADY have barriers over most of the accessible border . This is basically just upgrades, and filling in holes. 

Nah, the 5 billion barely covered 100 more miles.  That was what made the whole thing so ludicrous.   People were acting like Trump was going to build an impregnable wall from coast to coast with that paltry sum.  

[Gromdor]

Just now, DieChecker said:

Pelosi was offered DACA protections for 5 billion and turned it down. O didn't see any compromising on the House's part.... No Democrat high ground here, I am afraid.

That was after the court ruling against Trump though.  It kinda lost it's teeth since the original 25$ billion offer.