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Jodie.Lynne

I don't believe you

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papageorge1
3 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

 

Why do YOU continue to argue this issue?

I'll answer as one who is generally on the 'believers' side.

1) It's fun and challenging to debate

2) Others are exposed to what I believe to be the truth, helping them understand.

3) Fortifying people who generally agree with me with more good argumentation

4) To learn and firm up my thoughts

5) Starting needed fissures of doubt in those who disagree with me

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Likely Guy
1 hour ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

*respectfully snipped*

 

So, my question: 

Why do YOU continue to argue this issue?

Don't ask me, I'm an apatheist. :hmm:

Nice OP and topic by the way. Well done!

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Mr Guitar

While I usually don't debate these things (waste of time as it's un-winnable), I do try to make comments that show the believers the error and lack of logic of their ways. I'll say it again: religion/faith is entirely based on the fear of death and things that are not understood. If you will just accept the fact that death is inevitable and the 'END', you will be much happier and not have so much to worry about.

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Simbi Laveau

I believe in what I say. So to argue is to state my true beliefs. 

 

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'Walt' E. Kurtz

Most things can be explained in a scientific way if you feel like debating you can debate things with people in a civil way remember to treat others as you would like to be treated. 

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Stubbly_Dooright
10 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Imagine, if you will, a day when all the doubters, sceptics, atheists and general non-believers decided to give up trying to rationalize and discuss with believers on these forums.

I suppose the ufo/crypto/psi/alternative history/ghosts & paranormal forums would all become echo chambers as the faithful of those areas run rampant, high-fiving each other and reinforcing their beliefs with anecdotal tales, spurious articles and dubious videos.

I agree with those here, this is an awesome thread. :tu: 

I feel, that I’m kind of been at both ends of this here. Yes, I’m not an Atheist, but I’m also not orthodox, and feel a bit of a skeptic to the orthodox. I do feel respect and understanding with them, because of what they believe and how it effects their lives. I tend to want to show those who feel they have to have everyone else into their world view and how that is. 

I came to these boards, through the paranormal part. All I wanted to do is read other’s experiences and such. I have felt, I have had varying degrees of experiences I can’t explain, and yes, that excites me. And yeah, its mostly in a hobby stage, as oppose to a frustration stage of not knowing what to do. Anyways, I was :o at how there were posters who were there just to naysay others, and I felt some of them just put them down. I’m thinking, why are they there?! 

It makes me wonder, are the boards for like minded to read about other’s experiences, or are they for just debating. I find that I don’t visit the paranormal side a lot, because of this. Yes, I was those who insisted my experiences be believed, but I see now, that it’s still things that cannot be explain objectively. I may be at peace at just being me with faith in my experiences. It’s just, I wish there was a place just to have like minded to tell others of their experiences and just talk about it. I mean, isn’t that what those part of the forums about? 

Quote

n the theological section, I think there would be a collected sigh of relief that the nasty rationalists had surrendered and given up the field. But I feel that it wouldn't take long for the true believers started to tear into one another, like blood frenzied sharks, as they argued over whose god-construct was real and whose was untenable. Soon enough, the same epithets and accusations that are levelled against the atheists, would be hurled against different factions of true believers.

I guess, that may end up like that too. That’s the case, I feel, with this type of subject, which I feel is really in a subjective mode. There is so many different beliefs, religions, and such, (like I see in other paranormal related subjects), that yeah, I would agree on your prediction of it turning out that way. I think, for me to feel this way, that the subjectivity of this area, should be understood entirely, and to try to ‘convince’ others who logically don’t believe, would be illogical. I would think, in the end, when your prediction does happen, (considering the setup you discussed) that would be a good example as to how and why everyone should be content in their point of view and not feel they have to be justified in it, by enforcing it onto others. 

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For now, there is an uneasy alliance between the believers of different deities, following the age-old principle of "The enemy of my enemy...", with doubters being the 'enemy'. While there are a few theists whose views I can admire and respect, most fall into the category of lesser respectable posters. Those who fall back on hyperbole, ridicule, and out right illogic when it comes to defending their claims.

Maybe it’s my secular upbringing, not understanding the technicalities of the orthodox religions, but I don’t understand why these behaviors occur. Is it because a lot grew up into it and was given the environment of it being a surety, and then seeing it dissolve as such as they grow older and move out into their world? I think, there is a lack of solidifying of identities in such situations, and I think it’s the identities that are under a strain, and I see this as a big reason to why some behave in such a way. I grew up in a big family that was solid in being ourselves and going our paths with parental enthusiasm. I wonder, if that is the case of how I can feel satisfied that I am peace with my beliefs or lack of them and feel happy for those who have them or don’t. 

Quote

As one erudite and wise man posted, and I am paraphrasing most horribly, "Why continue to try?" Words I took to heart as I reflected on my reasons, and made a decision to no longer debate, question, or try to understand others beliefs. As has been pointed out, faith is apparently a very personal thing, and cannot be demonstrated to another.

 

So, my question: 

Why do YOU continue to argue this issue?

I wonder though, (and I can understand the question you ask though) what is the goal with all of us. I just explained mine, to just talk and learn about experiences (maybe like a hobby) with others. IN the varying forums here. If it’s a goal to try have an effect on others, (in the extreme, to get them to think and behave like you), then I would think that’s an unhealthy goal. Some may feel they are doing good, but where does one get off, that they are in the position? (Beside having their belief tell them so) 

I have often feel, and I feel this way with Atheists too, (I hope some understand what I mean with this) that it’s a goal to make others think like them. To most, I can see they think it’s doing some good toward those who is felt to not know what is best for their world view. At the least, it’s thinking that other’s point of views is going to make it worst for others. 

So I wonder, is it alright to assume one can have the position they need to change other’s world view, because they think they have a right to? And as I ask this, do I do that? I feel, though, it’s a one on one situation. Like, having a debate with someone who I think is telling me what to do, or making a statement without backup and expecting me to believe it. And then, I feel, that should understand and not get disappointed, if I logically don’t believe them. 

I think of your question, ‘why do you continue to argue the issue?’ And wonder at this because, I think it’s mostly a lack of understanding of where I stand and hope I am not misunderstood.  Years past, I would be upset if I can’t get through to someone who belittles, insults, and puts down my outlook. Now, I feel, it’s on them, and they should realize that I have a right to lose respect and not pay attention to them anymore.  

I think, to sum it up, and I think I base this up with my experiences here for the many years I have been here, and my experiences in the real life, it’s an identity issue, and probably a ambiguous one for each, when they do argue. I think, it’s their own outlook of who they are that’s on the line, and sometimes, that other one person is important to be on the same level, for then to exist as they only felt they should exist. 

*shrugs*

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Podo

I think that, in general, you can't argue with feelings. The deeply religious, those deeply dedicated to conspiracies, those who are certain that the woods are teeming with sasquatches, they don't weigh empirical data the same way the rest of us do. Their feelings, their thoughts, their impressions are worth far more to them than proof and reality are. This approach has worked for thousands of years, when humanity did not have the ability to prove most things. In those times, conviction and faith were fine because they served a purpose in society. We aren't like that anymore, we have ways of discovering truth that do not involve faith and feelings, but unfortunately many people refuse to modernize. I view such discussions as less of a struggle to convince someone of the errors of their specific beliefs and more of a struggle between fact vs fiction. 

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HerNibs

It's been a while but lemme try to answer...from my POV

Regarding deities/religion - I don't care what anyone believes.  UNLESS they attempt to use their personal beliefs to judge or govern my or other lives.  OR they attempt to declare things as factual when they are not.  I will ask you to back your **** up with actual evidence.

Regarding UFOs, ghosts and the paranormal - same situation - pony up the evidence.  Anecdotal is interesting.  Not evidence.  

If evidence (or what is thought is evidence) is given, yep, I'll question and pull it apart.  Actual evidence will hold up.

Sometimes I get involved (and heated) if it is a discussion that impacts, is impacting or impacted my life.

Don't get me wrong I would LOVE to have any of the items discussed be real.  

Plus, debating is fun and educational.

Nibs

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HerNibs

Oh, and why are "rationalists" nasty?

I've seen both sides resort to horrible nastiness.

Nibs

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Doug1o29
17 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Why do YOU continue to argue this issue?

First, I have pretty-much abandoned the field.  Reason and logic does not avail one of much.  In order to work, they must have facts to deal with and in discussions of gods and religion, there are no facts, just speculation.

I continue to hope that religionists will produce some workable ideas for discussion, but I find that in thousands of years there has been no progress made on many basic issues of religion:

Pelagius and St. Augustine debated free will around 408 AD.  We're still debating it on UM.

Why bad things happen to good people is the subject of the Book of Job.  The Bible couldn't produce an answer and nobody since has produced one either.

The date for Christmas was chosen by Constantine III to settle a feud between rival Christian factions, who were killing each other over issues of dogma.  Because the bishops couldn't decide, Constantine chose Mythra's birthday.  So now Christians celebrate Jesus' birth on Mythra's birthday.

The Dead Sea Scrolls not only preserve ancient versions of books of the Old Testament, like the Book of Isaiah, but they preserve several different versions of some of them.  And they explain the origin of Jesus' miracle stories.  Whoever wrote the Bible stories had been to Qumran and had seen the priestly ceremonies presented there.  Jesus' resurrection is also explained in those same scrolls - he didn't actually die on the cross - the resurrection was apparent, not factual.  Without its miracles, Christianity collapses.

I haven't looked at other religions, but those who have assure me that I would find much the same.

Doug

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Doug1o29
4 hours ago, Podo said:

I think that, in general, you can't argue with feelings. The deeply religious, those deeply dedicated to conspiracies, those who are certain that the woods are teeming with sasquatches, they don't weigh empirical data the same way the rest of us do. Their feelings, their thoughts, their impressions are worth far more to them than proof and reality are. This approach has worked for thousands of years, when humanity did not have the ability to prove most things. In those times, conviction and faith were fine because they served a purpose in society. We aren't like that anymore, we have ways of discovering truth that do not involve faith and feelings, but unfortunately many people refuse to modernize. I view such discussions as less of a struggle to convince someone of the errors of their specific beliefs and more of a struggle between fact vs fiction. 

The question is not whether you believe in sasquatch.  It is whether sasquatch believes in you.

I keep hoping we'll find a sasquatch, but since the DNA tests failed, it doesn't look too hopeful.  Still, a real sasquatch would prove we don't know everything just yet, that there is still the unknown just outside the door, waiting to be explored.

Doug

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Jodie.Lynne
1 hour ago, HerNibs said:

Oh, and why are "rationalists" nasty?

I was being snarky, after having a run in with an individual on the boards. He didn't really bring anything to the debate, but was content to sling barbs & insults at those who don't believe.

 

 

Now to answer my own question.

I am fascinated by mythology and ancient tales of legendary heroes. When I was much younger, I too was enthralled with tales of Atlantis, the Bermuda Triangle, ghosts, bigfoot, the whole enchilada. But for me, as I looked into things at a deeper level that the pop-cult books & "documentaries", I realized that the evidence was either lacking altogether, or wildly mis-represented. The magic faded, although, as HerNibs said, I'd love for some of those things to be proven! But I'm not holding my breathe.

 

Now for the biggie - Theology.

I am an atheist. I think I always was, since childhood, although raised and educated in the Roman Catholic faith. The religion never made any sense to me. Too many contradictions, to many illogical tales for a celestial being to have caused or directed things as portrayed in the Bible. I just couldn't understand the need to prostrate oneself to an entity that provided zero evidence for its existence.

That being said, I have a burning desire to know WHY people believe in the things that they do. What do they gain from these beliefs?

I question the 'evidence' provided, because it IS questionable. I try to get others to see how I view their faith, not to try to 'convert' them, but to make them see the illogic of some of the tenets of their faith. As silly and pointless as it may be, I try to get people to think about the reasons they believe, and not just get a knee-jerk reaction from them.

But, over the last few days, dealing with some who would rather insult than discuss; and those who seem to delight in giving one the run-around, I have reached my level of tolerance to even discuss the issue. I'm tired of being accused of "not understanding" the texts, Of being accused of "denying god" in order to sin, etc. etc.,

For those that believe, and live their lives in a positive way, then I wish them well. For the others, I have no use for them.

As I said above, there are some theists here that I greatly respect; they can discuss the reasons for their faith, and they appear to 'walk the walk' as well as talk it. 

8 hours ago, danydandan said:

I feel I am not suitably qualified to give you a substantial answer.

You just stop with the false modesty Mister! You are one of the ones I'm discussing here.

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Davros of Skaro

I gave up expecting reason, and evidence to change minds. I come to realize that even the skeptic/atheist can be just as biased as the believer.

Now I continue as a hobby, and maybe the few will see a bigger picture of some things of what I do say. But also I see my actions as being like the tactics firefighters use to retard the spread of certain types of fires.

The other day while using a public restroom someone left a folded photocopied note designed to inflict others with their delusion. So it's worth it to give a voice for reason.

 

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Liquid Gardens
22 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Why do YOU continue to argue this issue?

1. Entertainment.  (this answer gets around the frequent irrelevant mentions of 'why would you discuss something you don't believe in?  I think that means you are argle-bargle blahblah fooferall')

2. Most of what papageorge said with more emphasis on the fact that I may not have the right answers and want people to poke holes in my thinking.

3. Because back in the day I learned a ton and further refined and altered my beliefs by lurking on comment sections and reading a lot of similar discussions that we have here.

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danydandan
8 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

You just stop with the false modesty Mister! You are one of the ones I'm discussing here.

I'm still not qualified to give a response! 

Perhaps all us logical minded individuals need to go see a mental health professional?

Like I argue against people claiming to be organic farmer's at the organic farmers market just the same as I argue against users here proclaiming in-depth knowledge of the unknown. 

I think I just dis-like misinformation.

Edited by danydandan
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Doug1o29
14 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I am fascinated by mythology and ancient tales of legendary heroes. When I was much younger, I too was enthralled with tales of Atlantis, the Bermuda Triangle, ghosts, bigfoot, the whole enchilada. But for me, as I looked into things at a deeper level that the pop-cult books & "documentaries", I realized that the evidence was either lacking altogether, or wildly mis-represented. The magic faded, although, as HerNibs said, I'd love for some of those things to be proven! But I'm not holding my breathe.

A lot of those "myths" are truer than they first appear.  The sagas say that Vinland is two day's sail from "Leif's Camp" - Cape Cod is two days' sail from Newfoundland where the Viking settlement at L'ance aux Meadows is found.

"Moses" (or at least, somebody we remember as "Moses"), really did cross the Heroopolitic Red Sea.  That's not the same thing as what we call the "Red Sea," but it was real in its time.  And the place we now call El Kubrit, fit the description perfectly.

Fimbul Winter was probably in the year 536 AD.  In Gottland, there was no summer for three years.  The Annals of the Four Masters describes that year as having a "shortage of bread."  But let me know if you ever meet any of those ice maidens.  This was likely the time of Beowulf.  King Hrothgar really did lead a raid on the Rhine in 517 and there really was a battle on a frozen lake - in 539.  So Beowulf, or at least parts of it, are true.

Atlantis was pretty definitely Thera.  ALMOST everything fits.  But there are two details that don't:  Plato said Atlantis was beyond the Pillars of Hercules and he also placed the year as something like 9000 years ago.  BUT:  a city that resembles Plato's description of Atlantis has been found on the Atlantic coast in southern Spain.  It has a circular layout as Plato described.  AND:  about 8200 YBP there was a sudden rise in sea level that might have contributed to a sudden rise in the level of the Black Sea.  Legends have a way of getting confused and conflated with each other.

Bermuda is a seamount with a large deposit of magnetic rock (hematite?) that deflects compasses as much as 30 degrees.  It's a heavily-traveled part of the world, so one expects to find lots of wrecks there.  BUT:  my father-in-law was a pilot who flew training flights over the Bermuda Triangle - in Plane 1313, every Friday-the-thirteenth, departing at 1300 hours with a crew of thirteen - and never had anything but boring flights.

I keep hoping somebody will turn up a bigfoot, but aside from my shoe size, it doesn't appear too likely.

Doug

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Sherapy

Excellent question, Jodie Lynn.

My reasons have changed over the years, for me, this site is what I make of it and glean from it. I specifically stay in the Soritual versus Skepticism forum.

The posters are not homogenous and this is challenges me to go deeper to learn more about myself and refine my critical thinking skills.  I think disagreement is a good thing the benefits of group reasoning and feedback have been amazing for my personal growth intellectually and personally, it has helped in my interpersonal relationships. 

I had an ultra dogmatic mom like Walker and was able to understand her and strategize a way to civility. Not an easy endeavor, yet, I was a success at getting into her realty.

My goodness, there are some amazing sharp minds on here from all walks of life. Eight bits, Sharon, you Jodie, Dan (we are so fortunate to have him) Hammerclaw, ( what an amazing writer)  Liquid Gardens, ( the voice of reason) Cormac, Podo, Piney, Doug, Third Eye, ( this chap is clever),Joc,  and Psyche, Darvos has been educational for us all.. Copasetic dropped in recently. 

He was once a regular and hands down we all learn from him. I have made friends with past members who are still my friends.

Guyver was once a staunch believer, and it has been a delight to see his growth, Will is also growing and I am seeing more and more really thoughtful posts from him. Joc and I once disliked each other and now have mutual respect. I leaned a lot about myself from many posters  The one’s I disliked the most teach me the most. 

 Hammies a man of faith used to be quick tempered and caustic, he has softened and has earned the respect of believers and non believers alike. This is astounding. I see habitat softening too. 

I love coming here, all the posters and their mindsets make this as far as I am concerned. 

Edited by Sherapy
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Hammerclaw

Sociopaths rape and murder, but war gives license to evil and everyone can join in the fun. The crews of the planes that fire bombed Hamburg and Dresden did evil in the eyes of the innocent men, women and children they obliterated. We hailed them as heroes and pinned medals on them. It's not just bad people who are capable of committing horrific acts. Even the best of people can steel themselves to do them for the right reasons. I doubt many Allied women shed a single tear over the occasional acts of rape and pillage committed by Allied soldiers, either. War is the great moral equalizer.

Edited by Hammerclaw

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Podo
21 hours ago, Doug1o29 said:

The question is not whether you believe in sasquatch.  It is whether sasquatch believes in you.

I keep hoping we'll find a sasquatch, but since the DNA tests failed, it doesn't look too hopeful.  Still, a real sasquatch would prove we don't know everything just yet, that there is still the unknown just outside the door, waiting to be explored.

Doug

He believes in me. He sent me a birthday card!

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Doug1o29
2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Sociopaths rape and murder, but war gives license to evil and everyone can join in the fun. The crews of the planes that fire bombed Hamburg and Dresden did evil in the eyes of the innocent men, women and children they obliterated. We hailed them as heroes and pinned medals on them. It's not just bad people who are capable of committing horrific acts. Even the best of people can steel themselves to do them for the right reasons. I doubt many Allied women shed a single tear over the occasional acts of rape and pillage committed by Allied soldiers, either. War is the great moral equalizer.

It's called the banality of evil.  German citizens, not much different from you and I, participated in the Holocaust.  They kept the trains running on time and were even proud of it.  What's so terrifying about the Holocaust is that people just like me made it happen.

During Vietnam Americans sat at an assembly line making bomblets to go inside dolls.

Bombs dropped on Palestinian children proudly bear the words "Made in USA."

It's not evil - it's my job.

Doug

 

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Jodie.Lynne
9 hours ago, Doug1o29 said:

Bermuda is a seamount with a large deposit of magnetic rock (hematite?) that deflects compasses as much as 30 degrees.  It's a heavily-traveled part of the world, so one expects to find lots of wrecks there.  BUT:  my father-in-law was a pilot who flew training flights over the Bermuda Triangle - in Plane 1313, every Friday-the-thirteenth, departing at 1300 hours with a crew of thirteen - and never had anything but boring flights.

I seem to recall reading somewhere, that the number of wrecks in the area aren't that out of line with any other area of the world's oceans and seaways. You could arbitrarily map out any area in the oceans and come up with similar figures for wrecks. The fact that someone drew a triangle on a map and focused on the wrecks in the area that lends a "ooooh mysterious" aura to the region. There are even wrecks & disappearance outside the "devil's triangle" that have been attributed to the alleged haunted area.

 

What I have determined over the years is that people are gonna believe what they believe because they want to. Whether their beliefs come from a sense of comfort, or a desire for mystery, or simple plain ignorance, I haven't a clue.

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Mr Walker
On 19/02/2019 at 1:37 PM, Jodie.Lynne said:

Imagine, if you will, a day when all the doubters, sceptics, atheists and general non-believers decided to give up trying to rationalize and discuss with believers on these forums.

I suppose the ufo/crypto/psi/alternative history/ghosts & paranormal forums would all become echo chambers as the faithful of those areas run rampant, high-fiving each other and reinforcing their beliefs with anecdotal tales, spurious articles and dubious videos.

 

In the theological section, I think there would be a collected sigh of relief that the nasty rationalists had surrendered and given up the field. But I feel that it wouldn't take long for the true believers started to tear into one another, like blood frenzied sharks, as they argued over whose god-construct was real and whose was untenable. Soon enough, the same epithets and accusations that are levelled against the atheists, would be hurled against different factions of true believers.

 

For now, there is an uneasy alliance between the believers of different deities, following the age-old principle of "The enemy of my enemy...", with doubters being the 'enemy'. While there are a few theists whose views I can admire and respect, most fall into the category of lesser respectable posters. Those who fall back on hyperbole, ridicule, and out right illogic when it comes to defending their claims.

As one erudite and wise man posted, and I am paraphrasing most horribly, "Why continue to try?" Words I took to heart as I reflected on my reasons, and made a decision to no longer debate, question, or try to understand others beliefs. As has been pointed out, faith is apparently a very personal thing, and cannot be demonstrated to another.

 

So, my question: 

Why do YOU continue to argue this issue?

Because  I am right  :) 

Because  only truth can lead to freedom :) 

Because it is fun :) 

 

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