I don't believe you

[Jodie.Lynne]

3 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Is it because you need others to believe the same as you because of your insecurity? 

Funny that, because it seems like that is what a lot of theists seem to be trying to do.

[preacherman76]

Just now, Jodie.Lynne said:

Funny that, because it seems like that is what a lot of theists seem to be trying to do.

Nothing funny about that at all. I see it as just a basic human condition. That’s how I usually can sense a person is growing spiritually. When they no longer need their beliefs to be confirmed. 

 

[Jodie.Lynne]

2 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Nothing funny about that at all. I see it as just a basic human condition. That’s how I usually can sense a person is growing spiritually. When they no longer need their beliefs to be confirmed. 

 

Good for them. I've often said that "if your beliefs bring you comfort and peace, then it is the right belief. For you, not necessarily for me."

 

Now if we can just get all the god-botherers to stop condemning others and to stop acting as if they are in a special chosen group, maybe we could get on with the business of living our lives.

[preacherman76]

8 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Good for them. I've often said that "if your beliefs bring you comfort and peace, then it is the right belief. For you, not necessarily for me."

 

Now if we can just get all the god-botherers to stop condemning others and to stop acting as if they are in a special chosen group, maybe we could get on with the business of living our lives.

Well like I said, I believe it to be a human condition. The non believers are often just a guilty as the believers in needing their beliefs to be confirmed by others. 

Humans in general are often insecure. 

[preacherman76]

23 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Because, if a person makes a claim about something, they should expect to back it up?

Why? In places like this message board, people regularly come to share personal experiences. Things that can’t be proven or disproven either way. Often people are looking for others to relate to. To find others who have had similar experiences. 

Now if someone can prove their claim then sure, why not? I’ve yet to see that happen though. It just isn’t possible. I’ve shared my UFO story here many times. I had no intention of proving to anyone that it happened the way I said it did though, just wanted to share my story. Just wanted to talk with people who might have had similar experiences. Why can’t that be enough? 

[Jodie.Lynne]

6 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Why can’t that be enough? 

That is fine, we all like to share similar experiences, whether it's a movie, a book, a concert, an event that occurred in our lives.

The problem lies where people who claim an unusual experience which transforms their life, and proceed to tell everyone fanciful tales about that cannot be proven or disproven.

@preacherman76 you had a UFO encounter, point me to the thread, I'd love to read about it. However, if you claim that Zim took you aboard and brought across half a universe to tell you the secrets of life, then don't be surprised if I ask for some verification.

[preacherman76]

20 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

That is fine, we all like to share similar experiences, whether it's a movie, a book, a concert, an event that occurred in our lives.

The problem lies where people who claim an unusual experience which transforms their life, and proceed to tell everyone fanciful tales about that cannot be proven or disproven.

@preacherman76 you had a UFO encounter, point me to the thread, I'd love to read about it. However, if you claim that Zim took you aboard and brought across half a universe to tell you the secrets of life, then don't be surprised if I ask for some verification.

To you it’s ok. To many here it very much is not ok. It many time results in insults and just overall rude behavior. I’ve been told many times that if I couldn’t prove my experience, then I should be ridiculed. 

Same for the couple other paranormal experiences I’ve shared here. 

Yeah I can dig what you are saying with people taking things to far. Personally when I can’t relate to a subject, I usually don’t comment at all. Those threads tend to get really bad far as personal insults. The rare times I do comment in those threads, I’m usually defending the OP from all kinds of terrible things being said to them. And I don’t believe a word they said either. 

Its been years since I wrote the thread on my sighting. If you really wanna read it I’ll see if I can dig it up  

 

[+Liquid Gardens]

17 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

I’ve been told many times that if I couldn’t prove my experience, then I should be ridiculed. 

I'm not sure if you've actually been told you 'should be ridiculed' by many people or if instead you've interpreted criticism as ridicule, I think I'd need to see a quote.  I've been here a while and don't think I've ever seen anyone justifying 'ridicule' if you can't prove something.  If there actually are such people here I'm not sure why you'd care what people who are being so irrational think.

If only the amount of discussion that is had about how believers are supposedly mistreated or macro level comments suggesting there is a convincing case for the paranormal were instead replaced by discussions and analysis of the actual evidence I'd think it'd be much more interesting.  I don't think in actuality though there's much to discuss about that 'evidence', as all we have are largely testimonials.  Which makes it all the more odd why someone would question the request for evidence supporting what would likely be the greatest discovery in the history of man: the paranormal.

18 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

Why? In places like this message board, people regularly come to share personal experiences.

'This' specific message board concerns skepticism, so yes, you should expect that if you make a claim you're going to be asked for evidence, that's pretty basic.  Don't you request evidence for more mundane claims, doesn't everyone?  So why question when it's requested for extraordinary claims, there's nothing remotely unusual or unfair about that?

[preacherman76]

21 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I'm not sure if you've actually been told you 'should be ridiculed' by many people or if instead you've interpreted criticism as ridicule, I think I'd need to see a quote.  I've been here a while and don't think I've ever seen anyone justifying 'ridicule' if you can't prove something.  If there actually are such people here I'm not sure why you'd care what people who are being so irrational think.

If there are such people here? They are everywhere. Happens here everyday. I’m not digging through 12 years of my conversations here to dig up a personal example. 

I really don’t care anymore. I for the most part just stay away from such threads, as I’m sure many others do as well. Not including the new posters who get chased off by rude behavior here often. 

Quote

If only the amount of discussion that is had about how believers are supposedly mistreated or macro level comments suggesting there is a convincing case for the paranormal were instead replaced by discussions and analysis of the actual evidence I'd think it'd be much more interesting.  I don't think in actuality though there's much to discuss about that 'evidence', as all we have are largely testimonials.  Which makes it all the more odd why someone would question the request for evidence supporting what would likely be the greatest discovery in the history of man: the paranormal.

'This' specific message board concerns skepticism, so yes, you should expect that if you make a claim you're going to be asked for evidence, that's pretty basic.  Don't you request evidence for more mundane claims, doesn't everyone?  So why question when it's requested for extraordinary claims, there's nothing remotely unusual or unfair about that?

Great be a skeptic, ask for proof. No problem. I just don’t think it’s to much to ask for people to stop even after they are told they will get no such thing from a message board, and that the creator of the thread has no interest in proving anything to anyone. 

Edited April 1, 2019 by preacherman76

[spartan max2]

53 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

If there are such people here? They are everywhere. Happens here everyday. I’m not digging through 12 years of my conversations here to dig up a personal example. 

I really don’t care anymore. I for the most part just stay away from such threads, as I’m sure many others do as well. Not including the new posters who get chased off by rude behavior here often. 

Great be a skeptic, ask for proof. No problem. I just don’t think it’s to much to ask for people to stop even after they are told they will get no such thing from a message board, and that the creator of the thread has no interest in proving anything to anyone. 

I totally agree,

I started here in 2012, and it could just be what I call "the good old days" syndrome, but I swear threads are hostile now to anyone spiritual.

It was always interesting for me to read peoples stories and experiences, now even as an atheist I enjoy reading peoples stories.It seems people here began to view a experience post as if someone is publishing a research paper - the story must be peer-reviewed, with a control group. witnesses, etc. lol 

No one is publishing in a journal as proof of anything they are just sharing a story. If you go to the ghost stories subreddit the community is much more laid back. Similar to how I remember UM when I started.

By all means people should point out the practical and logical explanations for things, but it shouldn't become a court trial. The only times I care to really argue with someone's story is if it seems their belief is going to cause them to do something harmful. 

 

Edited April 1, 2019 by spartan max2

[+Liquid Gardens]

2 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

I’m not digging through 12 years of my conversations here to dig up a personal example.

That's fine, you're the one who said it's happened many times, and I was just interested in seeing a quote to see how well it matches with your claim that people are saying ridicule is okay.  Seems like if it's happening so often that you wouldn't have to look back 12 years, and if you have to look back to years ago to find one, well then that provides qualification on how bad this abuse really is.  (Or is your claim of people okaying ridicule also another story that it is rude to keep asking for evidence of?  Honesty, I don't know how you want all this to work.)

2 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

Not including the new posters who get chased off by rude behavior here often. 

Depends on 'here', again this is the skepticism board, what you seem to be asking is that people be skeptical here but only to a point and then they shouldn't criticize it any more.  Why would someone post something they don't have good evidence for on a skepticism board and then complain about people not 'stopping' being skeptical?  Maybe you are referring to the other boards here although I seem to see plenty of sympathetic stories on the other boards, although I'm sure there's skepticism too.  There's a whole other board here for friendly conversations about Spirituality for example.

By the way, is it rude to say things about people who don't believe there is any evidence for the paranormal worth mentioning that they are biased or 'blinded by materialism' or ignorant of the evidence?  Cuz I see those statements pop up a lot, not positive if by you, although I seem to recall you saying some very macro things about the overall case for the paranormal in favor of it.

[Jodie.Lynne]

6 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

but I swear threads are hostile now to anyone spiritual.

Only to those 'spiritual' people who aggressively post that they "have the truth" and if only we would listen and believe them, we would be saved.

 

If someone posted a story like:

"I had an encounter with something I believe was divine, god, angel, or something. I cannot prove it, and I'm not trying to convince or convert anyone, but the encounter made me re-evaluate my life and my circumstances. I think my life is better for this event. I wish everyone could see what I saw."

That would be fine. The poster might be questioned as to the particulars of the event, but I don't think that many would be overly hostile to the poster.

But, if the same poster stated that god revealed to them the way things have to be, and proceeded to dictate terms and conditions to follow in order to get to heaven; if they began to condemn and judge whole sections of society based on their personal 'revelation', then that opens up a new avenue of discussion.

 

If this were an Ice Cream forum, and people said what their fav flavor was, and why, that would be cool. But if someone posted "NO! This flavor is the best, and you're all to stupid and blind to realize it. And you'll all be sorry with 'This flavour' is all gone, then you will finally see the truth!" That would be aggressive, hostile, and presumptuous.

 

[hereticspl]

On 19/02/2019 at 1:07 PM, Jodie.Lynne said:

Imagine, if you will, a day when all the doubters, sceptics, atheists and general non-believers decided to give up trying to rationalize and discuss with believers on these forums.

I suppose the ufo/crypto/psi/alternative history/ghosts & paranormal forums would all become echo chambers as the faithful of those areas run rampant, high-fiving each other and reinforcing their beliefs with anecdotal tales, spurious articles and dubious videos.

 

In the theological section, I think there would be a collected sigh of relief that the nasty rationalists had surrendered and given up the field. But I feel that it wouldn't take long for the true believers started to tear into one another, like blood frenzied sharks, as they argued over whose god-construct was real and whose was untenable. Soon enough, the same epithets and accusations that are levelled against the atheists, would be hurled against different factions of true believers.

 

For now, there is an uneasy alliance between the believers of different deities, following the age-old principle of "The enemy of my enemy...", with doubters being the 'enemy'. While there are a few theists whose views I can admire and respect, most fall into the category of lesser respectable posters. Those who fall back on hyperbole, ridicule, and out right illogic when it comes to defending their claims.

As one erudite and wise man posted, and I am paraphrasing most horribly, "Why continue to try?" Words I took to heart as I reflected on my reasons, and made a decision to no longer debate, question, or try to understand others beliefs. As has been pointed out, faith is apparently a very personal thing, and cannot be demonstrated to another.

 

So, my question: 

Why do YOU continue to argue this issue?

I do it because I'm an idealist? 

[albie]

And here, ladies and gentlemen, we have the subject in question. Someone who cannot admit he is wrong.

This is aimed at preacherman. btw.

Edited April 2, 2019 by albie

[albie]

On 3/30/2019 at 2:44 AM, Jodie.Lynne said:

Thanks for the input!

Do you find that the more... aggressive the posts of the opponent become, that you feel you are gaining the higher ground?

Oh yes. These debates always end up like this. People HATE being painted into a corner during a debate. They feel threatened if you question their beliefs in such a way that makes THEM have to question their beliefs.. THere's something about BELIEFS that people are insecure about yet cherish above all else. People DO NOT like to be taught anything by a fellow student. It's quite interesting. 

Edited April 2, 2019 by albie

[albie]

On 3/31/2019 at 9:26 PM, preacherman76 said:

That’s interesting. Why do you feel a sense of accomplishment over denting other peoples faith?

Is it because you feel insecure in your own beliefs? Is it because you need others to believe the same as you because of your insecurity? 

You clearly have been there. You clearly have had your faith dented by someone like me.  That makes me happy.

[Will Due]

20 minutes ago, albie said:

It's quite interesting. 

 

So is misotheism. 

 

 

[albie]

2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

So is misotheism. 

 

 

I think we need only look at the world to see that any residing God must be a dunce. And by 'faith' i do not have to mean faith in God. But any belief. 

[Will Due]

Just now, albie said:

I think we need only look at the world to see that any residing God must be a dunce. And by 'faith' i do not have to mean faith in God. But any belief. 

 

Are you a misotheist?

 

 

[albie]

1 minute ago, Will Due said:

 

Are you a misotheist?

 

 

I don't like the idea of God, no. As I said, look at the world. If this is the work of a God then should we be extolling him/her?

240 women are raped daily in England and Wales according to one documentary I saw recently. According to the NSPCC 1 in 5 kids are abused in some manner. 

Nice world, God. Good work. 

[Will Due]

5 minutes ago, albie said:

I don't like the idea of God, no. As I said, look at the world. If this is the work of a God then should we be extolling him/her?

240 women are raped daily in England and Wales according to one documentary I saw recently. According to the NSPCC 1 in 5 kids are abused in some manner. 

Nice world, God. Good work. 

 

Do you hate God?

 

 

[danydandan]

6 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Do you hate God?

 

 

You do. 

[Will Due]

5 minutes ago, danydandan said:

You do. 

 

Oh dany boy, it's always the last act of desperation. 

Accuse another of what you're doing. 

 

 

 

[XenoFish]

Will, you remind me of Mr.Argon in so many ways. From having the same hatred for atheist, the superiority complex, and complete inability to answer the simplest questions. 

[Will Due]

6 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Will, you remind me of Mr.Argon in so many ways. From having the same hatred for atheist, the superiority complex, and complete inability to answer the simplest questions. 

 

Fish! You're back! I'm genuinely happy about that. I mean it. Believe it or not, I missed you.