I don't believe you

[jmccr8]

7 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

That's why I only cited Western Civilization. It's an illegal activity, now, not a social norm. In the Middle East and the sub continent, things are not so sanguine.   Freedom good--Slavery Bad pretty much covers it. Also, if you want to explore one of the worst episode of rape in the last one hundred years check out what happen to the women of Germany during first year of the occupation. Sad thing is, no one cared. They figured they disserved it.

Hi Hammer

Thanks, and now that you bring up what happened in Germany I will look into it.

jmccr8

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Hammer

Thanks, and now that you bring up what happened in Germany I will look into it.

jmccr8

Try YouTube, there's lots documentaries. 

[+Hammerclaw]

7 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Well, they don't like the idea of being  the odd-man out, which is what the "slave" addict is, the other 9 out of the ten, won't get to that stage/ Who wants to be that other fool that does.

Nine out of ten teenagers. They're young, they want to try everything, especially the forbidden and old age and consequences are a million years away.

[jmccr8]

Just now, Hammerclaw said:

Try YouTube, there's lots documentaries. 

Hi Hammer,

Thanks, I will take a look there, I was actually just reading this when you posted.

As we remember VE Day, remember too the German women who were raped

jmccr8

[+Hammerclaw]

4 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Hammer,

Thanks, I will take a look there, I was actually just reading this when you posted.

As we remember VE Day, remember too the German women who were raped

jmccr8

This brought tears to my eyes, one of many victims of the occupation. Doesn't look like she just laid back and enjoyed it, does it Mr Walker? 

 

[jmccr8]

2 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

This brought tears to my eyes, one of many victims of the occupation. Doesn't look like she just laid back and enjoyed it, does it Mr Walker? 

 

Hi Hammer

I mentioned in an earlier post about a pimp that abused his girls, he would recruit them young and keep them intimidated by both sexually and physically abusing them and these types of acts in any setting are deplorable which is why I reached out to help them.

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

36 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

This brought tears to my eyes, one of many victims of the occupation. Doesn't look like she just laid back and enjoyed it, does it Mr Walker? 

Hi Hammer

As I was reading this I was reminded of an incident many years ago when I was at on lady friends house and 2 fellows showed up of which she knew one of. As we spoke the unknown chap had said that he was in a halfway house after doing a 20-year stretch and when they left I told her not to open the door to them again. A couple of weeks later another girl that I knew that had 2 young children was found lying naked in the intersection of a street after having been raped and murdered by the same fellow that was in the halfway house. I could have killed him with my bare hands if the cops didn't get him first.

09612029600200111

jmccr8

[eight bits]

8 hours ago, Habitat said:

That is just you parading your "moral superiority" again, nowhere do I approve of exploitation of any sort !

First, you complain that posters had failed to identify present moral ills. Then, when it is pointed out to you that posters actually had identified present moral ills, you accuse one of them of parading his moral superiority.

You run a crooked game. I'm not playing.

Edited April 21, 2019 by eight bits

[+Hammerclaw]

35 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Hammer

As I was reading this I was reminded of an incident many years ago when I was at on lady friends house and 2 fellows showed up of which she knew one of. As we spoke the unknown chap had said that he was in a halfway house after doing a 20-year stretch and when they left I told her not to open the door to them again. A couple of weeks later another girl that I knew that had 2 young children was found lying naked in the intersection of a street after having been raped and murdered by the same fellow that was in the halfway house. I could have killed him with my bare hands if the cops didn't get him first.

09612029600200111

jmccr8

In South America, a woman was raped and murdered in an Aymara village. At her funeral, after the ceremony, the villagers took her bound assailant and threw him in the grave, alive, then lowered the casket on top of him. That was a fitting punishment.

[jmccr8]

1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

In South America, a woman was raped and murdered in an Aymara village. At her funeral, after the ceremony, the villagers took her bound assailant and threw him in the grave, alive, then lowered the casket on top of him. That was a fitting punishment.

Hi Hammer

I most assuredly agree, put them down as they deserve.

jmccr8

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

The lot of agricultural slaves (vincti) was probably one of the worst as they were usually housed in barrack buildings (ergastula) in poor, prison-like conditions and often kept in chains. Pompeii has revealed such work gangs chained together in death as they were in life. Other skeletal remains from Pompeii have also revealed the chronic arthritis and distortion of limbs that could only have been produced by extreme overwork and malnutrition

Hi Walker

This is one of the reasons that I ask people if they read the links that are posted.

Not sure what you think better, safer, and more comfortable means but this ain't it.

jmccr8

Yes i read and noted that particular paragraph

I said many 

yes there were slaves such as that. However there were also many house slaves,and those who did skilled artisan or book work,  who were part of the family, who had their own families with them and were housed, fed and educated by their masters, because the y were very valuable resources    These were  often having a better standard of living then freemen who would starve  to death if the y could not find work for food shelter etc.  The masters, being wealthy, could always care for the slaves, where freemen, being poor, lived much more risky lives  (and indeed often had to sell themsleves into slavery so their families could survive 

Did you read any of the sources i gave which explained the different types and conditions of slaves in the greek and roman empires, which is the period I am speaking of 

Remember i am  not arguing FOR slavery, just saying it was not always the evil some insist it was.  and sometimes was better (except for the loss of freedom ) than the life of freemen.

Plus of course, even freemen of those times were not free as we understand freedom .  The y were strictly regulated in their lives by laws and customs that controlled them 

Studies of remains show that not just slaves but almost ALL men, other than the very wealthy,  from  ancient societies suffered those sorts of injuries and I mentioned it before. 

it reflects what like was like for all working men, and often women, free or slave  

 

Slaves worked in a wide range of occupations that can be roughly divided into five categories: household or domestic, imperial or public, urban crafts and services, agriculture, and mining.[44]

Epitaphs record at least 55 different jobs a household slave might have,[44] including barber, butler, cook, hairdresser, handmaid (ancilla), wash their master's clothes, wet nurse or nursery attendant, teacher, secretary, seamstress, accountant, and physician.[3] A large elite household (a domus in town, or a villa in the countryside) might be supported by a staff of hundreds.[44] The living conditions of slaves attached to a domus (the familia urbana), while inferior to those of the free persons they lived with, were sometimes superior to that of many free urban poor in Rome.[45] Household slaves likely enjoyed the highest standard of living among Roman slaves, next to publicly owned slaves, who were not subject to the whims of a single master.[41] Imperial slaves were those attached to the emperor's household, the familia Caesaris.[44]

In urban workplaces, the occupations of slaves included fullers, engravers, shoemakers, bakers, mule drivers, and prostitutes. Farm slaves (familia rustica) probably lived in more healthful conditions. Roman agricultural writers expect that the workforce of a farm will be mostly slaves, managed by a vilicus, who was often a slave himself.[44]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Rome

Edited April 21, 2019 by Mr Walker

[danydandan]

16 minutes ago, eight bits said:

First, you complain that posters had failed to identify present moral ills. Then, when it is pointed out to you that posters actually had identified present moral ills, you accuse one of them of parading his moral superiority.

You run a crooked game. I'm not playing.

He's just a contrarian.

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

This brought tears to my eyes, one of many victims of the occupation. Doesn't look like she just laid back and enjoyed it, does it Mr Walker? 

 

Don't bring my name into it  

Rape is an abomination of sexual, physical,  and other power (such as economic)  by men over women (mostly) 

 

My only point on this was that what we see as rape was not always seen as rape, and i have only spoken about rape  in marriage

Ive never coerced or even tried to argue my way into any woman's bed  including my wife's. And I have  never used any form of violence bribery or coercion.

Indeed  (in my youth and young adulthood) i have rejected the advances of a number of women, including some quite young ones, because I  thought  that it was not a good idea, even though they wanted to. (I  am a bit old fashioned and have always believed that sex is so powerful that it should only be engaged in as part of a long term, loving, and committed relationship  ( I don't impose that morality on others but it has worked well for me) 

  I was raised to love, honour, respect and protect women, and while this is seen as a bit old fashioned by some, today, i still live by those principles 

 

[eight bits]

14 minutes ago, danydandan said:

He's just a contrarian.

That's Latin for troll.

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

When have we seen the collapse of society because of the abolishment of slavery in any country, from what I can tell it didn't as we are still here and progressing culturally, economically and technically so the argument for slavery does not seem to be valid from what I have seen?

Timeline of abolition of slavery and serfdom - Wikipedia

jmccr8

Generally the societies did not collapse because slavery was never abolished UNTIL it became economical to do so. My point was what could happen if slavery had been suddenly outlawed in places like ancient Rome and Greece where most of the workforce were slaves 

Conditions for black people deteriorated significantly after they were freed in America and it took many years for any sort of equality, but i would expect most African americans would feel it was worthwhile

It is not a politically acceptable argument but economically it can be modelled and consequence predicted.

Even the sources you gave admitted that removing slavery could cause social chaos but they had an absolutist moral value tha t it was more important to end slavery than maintain a social structure.That was never going to happen, and still would not happen today, or we would not have modern slavery 

  

[danydandan]

10 minutes ago, eight bits said:

That's Latin for troll.

Shhhh, don't tell anyone.

[Habitat]

58 minutes ago, eight bits said:

First, you complain that posters had failed to identify present moral ills. Then, when it is pointed out to you that posters actually had identified present moral ills, you accuse one of them of parading his moral superiority.

You run a crooked game. I'm not playing.

According to you, just about everyone is crooked, so no surprises here !

[Mr Walker]

5 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

Can you provide a source for that claim?

You can check the statistics for abortion, in america alone. 

As stated in a previous post, about 40 million LEGAL abortions in the usa between 1976 and 2016 

That is many times the number of slaves ever taken from  Africa, to america(10 to 12 million)  let alone just those who died as a result of slavery 

And it does not include the hundreds  of millions more unborn human beings killed  legally around the world in the last 50 years. 

[Habitat]

13 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

You can check the statistics for abortion, in america alone. 

As stated in a previous post, about 40 million LEGAL abortions in the usa between 1976 and 2016 

That is many times the number of slaves ever taken from  Africa, to america(10 to 12 million)  let alone just those who died as a result of slavery 

And it does not include the hundreds  of millions more unborn human beings killed  legally around the world in the last 50 years. 

People can identify with the dread of being cast into slavery, they can't identify with a child that could have lived, but did not. They can "feel" the horror of slavery, they just don't imagine, what being aborted is like for a foetus. After all, it was not in prospect for them personally, and they really are only interested in what they can identify with personally. I wonder how many walking around today know their very existence was being debated before they were born, and the decision just happened to go their way, I doubt that kind of knowledge becomes known to many.

[Mr Walker]

12 minutes ago, Habitat said:

People can identify with the dread of being cast into slavery, they can't identify with a child that could have lived, but did not. They can "feel" the horror of slavery, they just don't imagine, what being aborted is like for a foetus. After all, it was not in prospect for them personally, and they really are only interested in what they can identify with personally. I wonder how many walking around today know their very existence was being debated before they were born, and the decision just happened to go their way, I doubt that kind of knowledge becomes known to many.

Maybe(indeed certainly)  but it is also a more personal selfishness.

Having a child is an intensely personal  and  sometimes problematic event which affects many women.

  it is harder to be selfless and morally strong, when its your own life being affected.

Easier to argue that is not really a human being or that it is  a part of your body and  thus yours to do with as you see fit  

On the other hand, for many reasons ( medical economic or psychological) some women  truly need abortions and should not be denied them.

it is up to society in the long term  to better structure itself, so that other options are available  and abortions are rarely required. For example why should a woman have a lifetime responsibility to care for a child she never wanted to have? But this should not mean the child should not be born, rather that it should be loved and cared for by a person,  or people,  who do want it     ie that we abandon the idea that natural parentage gives an inalienable right to the life of another human being, and realise  that a child is an individual element  of the human race, and the responsibility of all of us, not just its parents  

[GoldenWolf]

23 minutes ago, Habitat said:

People can identify with the dread of being cast into slavery, they can't identify with a child that could have lived, but did not. They can "feel" the horror of slavery, they just don't imagine, what being aborted is like for a foetus. After all, it was not in prospect for them personally, and they really are only interested in what they can identify with personally. I wonder how many walking around today know their very existence was being debated before they were born, and the decision just happened to go their way, I doubt that kind of knowledge becomes known to many.

You are wrong with me when it comes to that statement.

[Habitat]

4 minutes ago, GoldenWolf said:

You are wrong with me when it comes to that statement.

I am regularly "wrong with you" wolfie !

[Habitat]

8 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Maybe(indeed certainly)  but it is also a more personal selfishness.

Having a child is an intensely personal  and  sometimes problematic event which affects many women.

  it is harder to be selfless and morally strong, when its your own life being affected.

Easier to argue that is not really a human being or that it is  a part of your body and  thus yours to do with as you see fit  

On the other hand, for many reasons ( medical economic or psychological) some women  truly need abortions and should not be denied them.

it is up to society in the long term  to better structure itself, so that other options are available  and abortions are rarely required. For example why should a woman have a lifetime responsibility to care for a child she never wanted to have? But this should not mean the child should not be born, rather that it should be loved and cared for by a person,  or people,  who do want it     ie that we abandon the idea that natural parentage gives an inalienable right to the life of another human being, and realise  that a child is an individual element  of the human race, and the responsibility of all of us, not just its parents  

When you think of the innumerable couples who'd love to bring a child into the world, and are not able to, and then the rate of abortions of convenience, it is a truly woeful story. Adoption is almost non-existent within Western societies.

[jmccr8]

4 hours ago, Habitat said:

When you think of the innumerable couples who'd love to bring a child into the world, and are not able to, and then the rate of abortions of convenience, it is a truly woeful story. Adoption is almost non-existent within Western societies.

Hi Habitat

That would be a limited view of what all is entailed on the subject and am giving these links to give a better overview of what some of the problems are within a global context.

Global Report on Children 2018

Most children in orphanages are not orphans - World | ReliefWeb

Street Children - Brazil

The House, the Street, Global Society: Latin American Families and Childhood in the Twenty-First Century on JSTOR

It is a sad condition that children are born into these conditions and I think that there are many who consider these concerns prior to having an abortion. Is it selfish?

jmccr8

[+Sherapy]

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Don't bring my name into it  

Rape is an abomination of sexual, physical,  and other power (such as economic)  by men over women (mostly) 

 

My only point on this was that what we see as rape was not always seen as rape, and i have only spoken about rape  in marriage

Ive never coerced or even tried to argue my way into any woman's bed  including my wife's. And I have  never used any form of violence bribery or coercion.

Indeed  (in my youth and young adulthood) i have rejected the advances of a number of women, including some quite young ones, because I  thought  that it was not a good idea, even though they wanted to. (I  am a bit old fashioned and have always believed that sex is so powerful that it should only be engaged in as part of a long term, loving, and committed relationship  ( I don't impose that morality on others but it has worked well for me) 

  I was raised to love, honour, respect and protect women, and while this is seen as a bit old fashioned by some, today, i still live by those principles 

 

You have posted there are very good reasons for rape in marriage, this is what is being addressed, your counter  that the rapist didn’t see it as rape, therefore it is not “really” rape. 

I certainly hope that you actually do respect women. 

 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2019 by Sherapy