I don't believe you

[Aquila King]

47 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

All Communism/Socialism is, is a government monopoly of capitalism and all the fat cats are government officials. Since they are both the capitalists and the government, they don't have to worry about the government moderating their excesses. They pretty much do anything they want. In any hierarchal organization, **** always finds a way to game the system and float to the top. 

And that is the reasoning behind Marxism and left-wing Anarchism. Their solution: Break down all social hierarchies.

[Aquila King]

32 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Capitalism works. The best approach in my opinion is to let the employees share in the profits. And also share the costs when the business struggles.

I challenge you, @Piney, and @XenoFish (as well as any other conservative) to watch this video in it's entirety, then form your own conclusions. If you still believe in maintaining the social hierarchy and the status quo, then that's merely a deep philosophical framework in your psyche that's likely never to budge.

And with this I wipe my hands of any further discussion on this topic. This thread had been derailed enough.

[Piney]

23 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

I challenge you, @Piney, and @XenoFish (as well as any other conservative) to watch this video in it's entirety, then form your own conclusions. If you still believe in maintaining the social hierarchy and the status quo, then that's merely a deep philosophical framework in your psyche that's likely never to budge.

I just got back from Home Depot and put the finishing touches on my wood shop.

I don't believe in a social hierarchy. I believe in making your own way in the world without government help. 

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, Piney said:

I don't believe in a social hierarchy. I believe in making your own way in the world without government help. 

 Same here.

[+Hammerclaw]

39 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

And that is the reasoning behind Marxism and left-wing Anarchism. Their solution: Break down all social hierarchies.

Oh really. Who, exactly, is going to break them down and why should people who cherish these hierarchies submit? How are you going to run a country without them? Create a whole new hierarchy of worker's councils who will manage things? What will you do with the masses that don't want to cooperate? What will the end result look like? If you really want to know, just read up on the October Revolution and the history of Bolshevik Russia.  Learn how easily your naïve ideals can become subverted and perverted by the opportunistic and cynical who use idealistic fools like you for their own aggrandizement.  

Edited May 14, 2019 by Hammerclaw

[Aquila King]

1 minute ago, Piney said:

I don't believe in a social hierarchy. I believe in making your own way in the world without government help. 

Which is a merit-based system, which is in other words, a social hierarchy.

But again, I'm not gonna derail this any further here, so imma try and get this back on track...

[XenoFish]

It is the parasites that bleed systems dry. With their hands held out crying, "more, more, more". If a person pursues their own self-interest, achieves what they can through their own efforts. They know the value of work. Even if they don't "own" the world. They know that they won't need to depend on handout to survive. 

There is value in hard work and determination.

Edited May 14, 2019 by XenoFish

[Aquila King]

1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

Oh really. Who, exactly, is going to break them down and why should people who cherish these hierarchies submit? 

If you cherish inequality mandated by a system that is designed to oppress those at the bottom, then that's reason enough for those at the bottom (or anyone else who recognizes the unjust Capitalist system for what it is) to force those who cherish that unjust system to submit.

Though I will add as a caveat: I myself don't claim to be a Marxist or Anarchist. I'm a Social Democrat, which isn't a post-capitalist philosophy, and is rather banal compared to many other leftist groups. I merely sympathize with many Marxist/Anarchist ideologies. I tend to think they raise a number of fair points, but are a bit too idealistic. That's it.

8 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

How are you going to run a country without them? Create a whole new hierarchy of worker's councils who will manage things? What will you do with the masses that don't want to cooperate? What will the end result look like? 

You seem to be angrily asking questions to things that are easily obtainable if you simply took the time to read any Marxist literature. Feel free to disagree with it, I myself disagree with many parts of it. But what you're asking here kinda shows that you haven't even spent time to read up on the philosophy you claim to oppose.

11 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

If you really want to know, just read up on the October Revolution and the history of Bolshevik Russia and learn how easily your naïve ideals can become subverted and perverted by the opportunistic and cynical who use idealistic fools like you for their own aggrandizement.  

Communist Russia, China, and the Soviet Union are indeed left-wing, but they aren't the ideal that Karl Marx originally envisioned. Marx supported a stateless, classless, moneyless society, that completely eliminates all social hierarchies. Those Communist nations that exist today are as you described earlier, merely a massive Capitalist totalitarian entity owned entirely by the state. 

It's accurate to call them Communist, but they aren't Marxist, and sure as Hell ain't Anarchist. So to quote them as examples is to be completely misinformed.

[Piney]

15 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Which is a merit-based system, which is in other words, a social hierarchy.

But again, I'm not gonna derail this any further here, so imma try and get this back on track...

OK, but one more question? How is working your ass off as a carpenter and logger a merit based system? 

[Aquila King]

13 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

It is the parasites that bleed systems dry. With their hands held out crying, "more, more, more". If a person pursues their own self-interest, achieves what they can through their own efforts. They know the value of work. Even if they don't "own" the world. They know that they won't need to depend on handout to survive. 

There is value in hard work and determination.

Such is the backwards philosophy of Conservatism...

[+Sherapy]

8 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Blind faith just believes... believes whatever it is told... common themes in some churches.

But what would Jesus say about such people? He'd probably think they are mistaken, but love on them anyway. 

Faith is belief, but blind faith is being stupid about it. Not like believing that Jesus performed miracles, which can't be proven. But like evil is good kind of stupid.

I've found that belief in an afterlife can be pivotal in people's lives. It provides them with an end goal, when all other ends seem bleak. Some people get rich as their goal, some have families, some gain authority and power. But, what happens when their riches... their family... their authority... is lost, or taken? They collapse and sometime kill themselves, or worse, others. 

It is true a person can be fulfilled in this life without religion, but if having religion is a spiritual backstop... a fallback position... Isn't it doing good by saving that individual?

I believe the Bible is noble in the teachings of Jesus. I realize that the base teachings are layered on top of by the follow on Books, like Romans and Acts, and thus interpreted by others, even to this day... But Jesus tried to teach love, and acceptance, and healing, and sacrifice for others, and I think those are noble things.

Thank you for the very kind words Sheri. I try.

Like with AK, I try to understand the other poster, and deal from that... what t they intended to mean. Sometimes that works, sometimes not.

I will confess though, I don't go after Will, Habitat, or Walker as much as I could. But plenty of others call them out already.

I realize I'm probably not going to change anyone's mind, but I do feel that some points here and there need to be clarified, or added to, based off my "fudamentalist" Evangelical belief system. Or, to try to clear up misconceptions, and just plain ignorant statements.

Thanks again. I value your wisdom, and you'll see I like many of your posts, I think. Psyche is another person I greatly admire, though he's about as far from a believer as one can get. But... good sense is good sense, right?

Indeed, Psyche just has good sense.  

There are good atheists and angry ones, Psyche to me emulates the advocacy aspect of the good Atheist who just wants to see a better way over all and stands for that, and helps others to evaluate their beliefs in a way that harms no one if at all possible. 

He actually cares about a better world. 

As far as the other three you mentioned, I do see growth in Habitat, he still has his bad days, but over all he does try. 

I had bad moments as an Atheist and it was my Atheist and Agnostic peers that helped by pointing out how I could be better, setting a better example for me to aspire to. We need feedback, good and constructive, we can’t always see ourselves clearly. Just my two cents

Edited May 14, 2019 by Sherapy

[Aquila King]

4 minutes ago, Piney said:

OK, but one more question? How is working your ass off as a carpenter and logger a merit based system? 

How is anything a Merit based system?

Meritocracy is a myth. It's like Justice. We create a justice system and strive for perfect justice as an end goal, but true and perfect justice for everyone is simply unobtainable.

[XenoFish]

3 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Such is the backwards philosophy of Conservatism...

What have you truly earned in your life? How much have you actually struggle to have something to call your own? Do you have anything to really take pride in where, "I did this" is an honest statement. 

[Piney]

2 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Meritocracy is a myth. It's like Justice. We create a justice system and strive for perfect justice as an end goal, but true and perfect justice for everyone is simply unobtainable.

I'm a former cop who went to prison for something that wasn't illegal. Your preaching to the choir there. 

[Aquila King]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

What have you truly earned in your life? How much have you actually struggle to have something to call your own? Do you have anything to really take pride in where, "I did this" is an honest statement. 

You seem to equating struggle with success, which is an idea I completely oppose.

Those with dyslexia struggle to read. Those with ADHD struggle to pay attention. Those with PTSD struggle with recurring flashbacks of trauma. Those with other mental health issues struggle in various ways to live and function in society. But most importantly, most of them struggle and fail.

There are people who struggle to work two full time jobs on minimum wage that don't pay them enough to live on, while struggling to raise 3 kids, and struggling to take classes for a higher education, and then struggling to pay off massive student loan debt till they're in their 50's and 60's.

My mother was a Straight-A student all through school, graduated the top of her class with honors, got multiple scholarships, earned a Masters degree +, got a job as a school teacher right out of college, and has lived paycheck to paycheck her whole life barely scraping by.

Struggle is not an inherently good thing, and in fact I'd say that for the most part it's a negative. Though it sure as Hell doesn't equate to success.

[XenoFish]

You didn't answer my questions.

[Aquila King]

10 minutes ago, Piney said:

I'm a former cop who went to prison for something that wasn't illegal. Your preaching to the choir there. 

Yep. I know the unjust nature of the Justice system as well. Have a pedophile father who never went to trial because a judge dismissed the case in a backroom without the slightest thought. Justice is good in theory, but in reality it's never perfectly obtained.

I can agree with conservatives that people should earn in proportion to the work that they do, but I simply disagree with the notion that a person's income or financial situation is always equal to the amount of work that they do or have. That's just hopelessly naive.

[Aquila King]

3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

You didn't answer my questions.

Well in order to answer them, I'd have to accept the underlying framework of your questions, which I just broke down to why I find it to be completely bogus.

Though to answer your questions within your own framework despite that...

I've worked 10-12 hour shifts 5-6 days a week in a factory that produces steel wheels. Was able to buy a car, my own food, as well as numerous other necessities with that. I've worked in various programs that helped kids and impoverished communities. I've earned various awards over the years for academic achievement in some areas, and I've earned a spot in a couple of art contests. Just to name a few things off the top of my head.

Therefore I do in fact understand the feeling of success. I do understand the feeling that comes with working hard and having my work pay off in the end. 

So I ask you this question in return - Do you understand the natural hardship that comes with struggling and working hard repeatedly at something, only for it to fail? Do you understand the feeling of your work leading to a feeling of an inevitable cycle of failure and suffering? And if so, why do you continue to insist that hard work = success?

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

So I ask you this question in return - Do you understand the natural hardship that comes with struggling and working hard repeatedly at something, only for it to fail? Do you understand the feeling of your work leading to a feeling of an inevitable cycle of failure and suffering? And if so, why do you continue to insist that hard work = success?

Doing something is better than doing nothing. A wish or a dream is just a nice idea, but if you never try, you'll never know if it could be real. 

I know hard work equal success, because it take a lot of little things to get a big pay off. The time, effort, and energy it takes to create+run a business is a struggle. 21 years of it when everyone around me was closing their doors and calling it quits. 

 

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, Aquila King said:

If you cherish inequality mandated by a system that is designed to oppress those at the bottom, then that's reason enough for those at the bottom (or anyone else who recognizes the unjust Capitalist system for what it is) to force those who cherish that unjust system to submit.

Though I will add as a caveat: I myself don't claim to be a Marxist or Anarchist. I'm a Social Democrat, which isn't a post-capitalist philosophy, and is rather banal compared to many other leftist groups. I merely sympathize with many Marxist/Anarchist ideologies. I tend to think they raise a number of fair points, but are a bit too idealistic. That's it.

You seem to be angrily asking questions to things that are easily obtainable if you simply took the time to read any Marxist literature. Feel free to disagree with it, I myself disagree with many parts of it. But what you're asking here kinda shows that you haven't even spent time to read up on the philosophy you claim to oppose.

Communist Russia, China, and the Soviet Union are indeed left-wing, but they aren't the ideal that Karl Marx originally envisioned. Marx supported a stateless, classless, moneyless society, that completely eliminates all social hierarchies. Those Communist nations that exist today are as you described earlier, merely a massive Capitalist totalitarian entity owned entirely by the state. 

It's accurate to call them Communist, but they aren't Marxist, and sure as Hell ain't Anarchist. So to quote them as examples is to be completely misinformed.

I never said anything about anarchists and you[re burying your head in the sand when you can't deal with the world and people as they are. You are every bit a communist idealist, protest all you want. It's not easily obtainable. Like the Bolsheviks, you would kill the ox of capitalism for an easy meal--then what? Once you've gobbled up the accrued wealth of capitalism you would starve. Capitalistic Democracy is an imperfect system, but, so far the best system. It harnesses the wild beast of capitalism and puts it to work for the collective whole. That's why capitalist democracies have the highest standards of living in the world. The Swedish system, that gold standard of socialism, is on the verge of collapse. You wallow in dream and delusion and have nothing practical or realizable to offer. You've learned nothing from history and simply restate all of it's mistakes. Life and the world will never be the idealistic altruistic fantasy you yearn for and you're stuck here in it, with the rest of us.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Hammerclaw

[Aquila King]

10 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Doing something is better than doing nothing. A wish or a dream is just a nice idea, but if you never try, you'll never know if it could be real. 

Did I ever once say "do nothing?" No, I've never advocated for that. I've only ever said that just cause you do something (or more specifically work hard) doesn't guarantee you'll be successful at it.

You've spoken multiple times on here about the Law of Attraction and how just thinking about something doesn't mean it'll happen. Have you ever thought to take that just one step further? Just working at it doesn't guarantee it'll happen either.

16 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I know hard work equal success, because it take a lot of little things to get a big pay off. The time, effort, and energy it takes to create+run a business is a struggle. 21 years of it when everyone around me was closing their doors and calling it quits. 

Hard work does not equal success. For the most part it's uncontrollable circumstances that are the real keys to success:

Quote

Americans may be optimistic that individual abilities control their success, but the reality of “making it” in life really all boils down to circumstances — how and where you grew up.

Just take a look at history — why is it that so many scientific and technological breakthroughs have been invented or discovered by white men? It’s not because they’re smarter — it’s because, in the past, a larger number of white men have had access to more education and resources than minority groups.

A 2009 study by the National Center for Children in Poverty at Columbia University found that 40% of poor children (defined as kids who spent 8–14 years in poverty) would still be poor by the age of 25.

In 2017, the Urban Institute concluded that only 16% of children that had spent half of their life impoverished were out of poverty by their late 20’s — and those numbers were based on individuals who were consistently working or attending school.

Nobody’s saying that hard work doesn’t factor into success, but the truth is, your circumstances play a much larger role in your financial independence in adulthood.

Also, your intelligence doesn’t hold much weight, either — your genius-level IQ doesn’t matter if you have to drop out of high school to support your family. As I said, there’s a reason why so many of the world’s technological breakthroughs seem to have come from white men, and it has nothing to do with a superior IQ.

This brings me to my next point. Growing up poor or rich is only one set of uncontrollable circumstances, but race and gender play a role too.

The Institute for Women’s Policy found, in 2016, that a woman’s median annual earnings were only 80.5% of a man’s.

Following that same trend, the Economic Policy Institute uncovered that the median black household only 61% of the annual income that a white household did.

So, regardless of whether or not you grow up in poverty, your financial success will still be significantly impacted by your race or gender.

https://medium.com/@pricelindy/hard-work-does-not-equal-success-692fa1cde1df

You've more than likely achieved success through uncontrollable circumstances that you're blissfully unaware of, and then using your own personal anecdote as a way of rationalizing your worldview.

I don't know if you do it to give yourself a pat on the back, or disparage those less fortunate than you, or neither cause you've merely assumed it so. But either way, hard work absolutely does not in any way guarantee success. Only those lucky or privileged enough to have their hard work pay off in the end would truly say that.

[XenoFish]

You know kid. I've made my life. Built from trailerpark trash to being just one step above my parents and put a kid through college. Get back to me when you've made something for yourself. 

Time, effort, energy. Success or failure. Doing something is better than doing nothing. 

 

[+Hammerclaw]

12 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

 

I don't know if you do it to give yourself a pat on the back, or disparage those less fortunate than you, or neither cause you've merely assumed it so. But either way, hard work absolutely does not in any way guarantee success. Only those lucky or privileged enough to have their hard work pay off in the end would truly say that.

Only someone who is an abject failure would think that an excuse. "Lucky or privileged that hard work paid off?" You incredible jerk. They reaped the rewards of hard work, through their blood, toil, sweat and tears, and you disparage that by saying they were just lucky? You must still be living with mommy or daddy because you haven't a clue what the real world is like. I worked my ass off for what little I have and there wasn't any luck to it. I just put my shoulder to the plow and pushed, hard.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Hammerclaw

[Aquila King]

17 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

I never said anything about anarchists and you[re burying your head in the sand when you can't deal with the world and people as they are. You are every bit a communist idealist, protest all you want. It's not easily obtainable. Like the Bolsheviks, you would kill the ox of capitalism for an easy meal--then what? Once you've gobbled up the accrued wealth of capitalism you would starve. 

I've stated where I stand on this issue very clearly already, so at this point you're just making s**t up about me. If this is intended as a smear, it's pretty lazy and stupid to be perfectly frank.

18 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Capitalistic Democracy is an imperfect system, but, so far the best system. It harnesses the wild beast of capitalism and puts it to work for the collective whole. That's why capitalist democracies have the highest standards of living in the world. The Swedish system, that gold standard of socialism, is on the verge of collapse. You wallow in dream and delusion and have nothing practical or realizable to offer. You've learned nothing from history and simply restate all of it's mistakes. 

Look, there's just so much bulls**t to sift through here that I really don't care to take the time to debunk it all.

This isn't a political thread in the political section, conversations just tend to get political around me because as I explained earlier in the thread, most issues I view as a systemic problem rooted in politics. So it's almost inevitable for even a mere religious discussion to devolve into politics and devolve here it certainly has.

I've tried a few time to get back on track, but imma totally sincerely try this time. Believe what you want dude, more power to ya.

23 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Life and the world will never be the idealistic altruistic fantasy you yearn for and you're stuck here in it, with the rest of us.

True. That's why I'm not a Marxist or Anarchist as your smear above suggests, I'm a Social Democrat. And that's really not that extreme of a position honestly.

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

Only someone who is an abject failure would think that an excuse. "Lucky or privileged that hard work paid off?" You incredible jerk. They reaped the rewards of hard work, through their blood, toil, sweat and tears, and you disparage that by saying they were just lucky? You must still be living with mommy or daddy because haven't clue what the real world is like. I worked my ass off for what little I have and there wasn't any luck to it. I just put my shoulder to the plow and pushed, hard.

We don't often see eye to eye, but I respect you.