I don't believe you

[Aquila King]

5 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

You know kid. I've made my life. Built from trailerpark trash to being just one step above my parents and put a kid through college. Get back to me when you've made something for yourself. 

Time, effort, energy. Success or failure. Doing something is better than doing nothing. 

For someone who rails against religious people ignoring the facts presented in favor of repeating their narrative, you seem to sure be apt here to do the same...

[+Hammerclaw]

5 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

I've stated where I stand on this issue very clearly already, so at this point you're just making s**t up about me. If this is intended as a smear, it's pretty lazy and stupid to be perfectly frank.

Look, there's just so much bulls**t to sift through here that I really don't care to take the time to debunk it all.

This isn't a political thread in the political section, conversations just tend to get political around me because as I explained earlier in the thread, most issues I view as a systemic problem rooted in politics. So it's almost inevitable for even a mere religious discussion to devolve into politics and devolve here it certainly has.

I've tried a few time to get back on track, but imma totally sincerely try this time. Believe what you want dude, more power to ya.

True. That's why I'm not a Marxist or Anarchist as your smear above suggests, I'm a Social Democrat. And that's really not that extreme of a position honestly.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and smells like duck, it ain't no chihuahua. 

[Aquila King]

3 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Only someone who is an abject failure would think that an excuse. "Lucky or privileged that hard work paid off?" You incredible jerk. They reaped the rewards of hard work, through their blood, toil, sweat and tears, and you disparage that by saying they were just lucky? You must still be living with mommy or daddy because you haven't a clue what the real world is like. I worked my ass off for what little I have and there wasn't any luck to it. I just put my shoulder to the plow and pushed, hard.

Odd that you want to flip the "disparaging narrative" like that. My entire argument is that you are the ones being disparaging towards those who've worked just as hard but are simply less fortunate than you by slandering them as "lazy" for "not working hard enough."

I'm not saying that people's hard work isn't a significant factor in their success, so if you think I'm trying to take that sense of accomplishment away from people then I'm sorry, but I can assure you I'm not.

I'm merely saying that there are plenty of people who work just as hard in life and don't have the same outcomes as others. Not everyone has an equal opportunity, that just isn't a natural in-built guarantee. So to suggest that it is, is to disparage the less fortunate.

[XenoFish]

7 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

For someone who rails against religious people ignoring the facts presented in favor of repeating their narrative, you seem to sure be apt here to do the same...

I've done a lot in my 40 years of life. You make your own luck. Create your own slice of life. Get back to me when you're 40 and see if you feel the same. 

[Aquila King]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

I've done a lot in my 40 years of life. You make your own luck. Create your own slice of life. Get back to me when you're 40 and see if you feel the same. 

Those are all personal anecdotes, and say nothing to the statistical reality that millions of other people suffer through every day.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Aquila King
Typos.

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, Aquila King said:

Odd that you want to flip the "disparaging narrative" like that. My entire argument is that you are the ones being disparaging towards those who've worked just as hard but are simply less fortunate than you by slandering them as "lazy" for "not working hard enough."

I'm not saying that people's hard work isn't a significant factor in their success, so if you think I'm trying to take that sense of accomplishment away from people then I'm sorry, but I can assure you I'm not.

I'm merely saying that there are plenty of people who work just as hard in life and don't have the same outcomes as others. Not everyone has an equal opportunity, that just isn't a natural in-built guarantee. So to suggest that it is, is to disparage the less fortunate.

No one here has. That's your circular logic for disparaging those who reap their just rewards as you sure the hell have. In living, there is no such thing as equality, only relative outcomes. There will always be some less fortunate than others and there will never be an overseer to level all outcomes. In general, with some unfortunate exceptions, one gets out off life that which is commiserate of what one puts into it. Equal opportunity is no guarantee of equal results. Some people are just better at it.

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Those are all personal anecdotes, and say nothing to the statistical reality that millions of other people suffer through every day.

I don't care about other people. I'm not them. If they don't take a chance or they don't want to try, it isn't my problem. I built my life. What someone else does is up to them. 

If you choose to live a mediocre life, that is your choice. I didn't. I made it. 

[+Desertrat56]

6 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Those are all personal anecdotes, and say nothing to the statistical reality that millions of other people suffer through every day.

Statistics can be manipulated.  What statistics are you referring to? What kind of suffering are you referring to.  You are using general terms and expect that to prove your point.

[Aquila King]

So, in an effort to get things back on track...

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

BOTH scientific thinking and faith are essential for human survival

No they're not. Not anymore anyway.

Faith as is commonly used, refers to believing something without any rational basis or evidence to do so. There may be a rational basis for why doing so in the days of hunters-gatherers might be beneficial. Essentially, how superstition often puts people on high alert to avoid dangers. But in the modern world, it's completely unnecessary.

Today's threats mostly come in the form of illnesses, or financial troubles, etc. We aren't hunting on the plains of Africa anymore where we can be attacked by wild lions or whatnot.

[Aquila King]

4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I don't care about other people. I'm not them.

Well then I think we found the root of the problem. 

[Aquila King]

2 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Statistics can be manipulated.  What statistics are you referring to? What kind of suffering are you referring to.  You are using general terms and expect that to prove your point.

I just quoted some statistics in a response to another poster. Though again, I'm done with this total thread derailment. I'm for one going back on topic.

[+Hammerclaw]

9 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I don't care about other people. I'm not them. If they don't take a chance or they don't want to try, it isn't my problem. I built my life. What someone else does is up to them. 

If you choose to live a mediocre life, that is your choice. I didn't. I made it. 

What do you want to bet you're talking to someone under a roof he didn't pay for using electricity he doesn't pay for, typing on a computer bought with someone else's money?

Edited May 14, 2019 by Hammerclaw

[XenoFish]

7 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

What do you want to bet you're talking to someone under a roof he didn't pay for using electricity he doesn't pay for, typing on a computer bought with someone else's money?

I know I am. 

[XenoFish]

9 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Well then I think we found the root of the problem. 

It's not a problem. It's realistic. No care about you like you think they might. I only care about those who bring value to my life. 

[Aquila King]

10 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

What do you want to bet you're talking to someone under a roof he didn't pay for using electricity he doesn't pay for, typing on a computer bought with someone else's money?

Personal attacks don't make your arguments any more valid.

[Aquila King]

5 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

It's not a problem. It's realistic. No care about you like you think they might. I only care about those who bring value to my life. 

What you're describing is at best, a major character flaw, or at worst, an antisocial personality disorder. Either way, anyone with a basic moral compass or a conscience can see that that's wrong.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Aquila King

[+Hammerclaw]

2 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Personal attacks don't make your arguments any more valid.

They make yours much less, however. If you haven't left the nest, you have little or no real experience on which to base your fanciful assumptions. It's easy to be a socialist if your existence is still vicarious. 

[XenoFish]

4 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

What you're describing is at best, a major character flaw, or at worst, an antisocial personality disorder. Either way, anyone with a basic moral compass or a conscience can see that that's wrong.

We all have our problems. 

[danydandan]

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

But there IS no inconsistency. 

Science is fact based. Belief is faith based

Maybe your problem (and i have a similar  one)  is that you simply can't "do" faith. or belief without evidences.

Critical thinking can lead a person TO belief in god as well as away from it. 

 

  

 

You are missing the point. You're either being deliberately disingenuous (deceptive) and trying to sway a conversation a certain way or you're not as shwerd as you imagine yourself to be.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD.

It is about reading a book, in this case the Bible, accepting it in it's entirety as truthful with not one other supporting document or sources. Then turning around and trying to adhere to the application of the scientific method in your profession or other aspects of your life. It's completely inconsistent!

Edited May 14, 2019 by danydandan

[Aquila King]

Just now, Hammerclaw said:

They make yours much less, however. If you haven't left the nest, you have little or no real experience on which to base your fanciful assumptions. It's easy to be a socialist if your existence is still vicarious. 

I have "left the nest" actually, and failed. Thus I came back, and am still working on my own personal issues with a therapist and psychiatrist now.

I've been perfectly honest and open on here about my past history of sexual abuse by my father from the brain's most developmental ages from 3 to 4, how I've suffered through extreme stress and anxiety in anticipation of a trial during my high school years only for it to be dismissed by a judge in a backroom, etc. I've suffered through the years with varying degrees of PTSD, ADD, Social Phobia, Panic Attacks, Agoraphobia, severe bouts of Depression and Anxiety, numerous thoughts of and an attempt at Sucide, etc. And all of these things have lead to natural struggles through school and with work alike.

I essentially suffer from a certain uncontrollable circumstance called mental illness, which is unfortunately used by most people as a derogatory slur, but it is what it is. If I were physically I'll most people wouldn't think a thing of it, but mental illness is unfortunately so often viewed as a moral failing on your part.

I have several legitimate issues that have made it difficult for me to work and function in the real world, and yes, the internet with platforms like this are what often helps me to heal and grow as a person. I shouldn't feel ashamed of what my father did to me, nor will I allow people like you to shame me for being in the state that I'm currently in.

I know from experience, that there are hard working people who struggle every day to do basic things that most other people just take advantage of. If my problem was "laziness," then I wouldn't have spent such a long time in the past working 10 to 12 hour shifts every day in a factory lifting steel wheels all day, on top of running near daily church programs after work at the time. My problem isn't "laziness," I'm sick. As are millions of other people.

I know not only statistically, but through personal experience, that there are millions of people who work their asses off and struggle to make ends meet, yet still live in poverty their entire lives. That's just how the system currently works. Personal attacks on me mean nothing to demolish that basic fact.

And furthermore, it appears as though you'd say the same thing no matter who it is, so long as they challenge the current system. If you're a millionaire or middle class, then you're a hypocrite. If you're working class or in poverty, you're just envious. What you really are is making excuses for why you won't provide an equal opportunity to those less fortunate than you in order to maintain your feeling of superiority.

I am working on my issues, and have become far stronger to even discuss this here with you in a completely calm unemotional manner. So say what you want. It's only ever ill informed words.

[XenoFish]

This is going to be the last thing I say to you for a while. So here it goes. First, congratulations on having a job. I hope you are helping your mother out financially and with whatever physical things that need to be done. Second, I'm going to challenge you. I want you to get a 3 subject notebook and write on the first page what you want to have in your life within the next 10 years. Simple, complex goal or goals. Doesn't matter. But write it down and ask yourself if you're willing to pay the price for it. The time, effort, and energy to achieve this/these goals. If so. Keep that notebook and additional notebooks as a journal of life's progression. Write everything in it. What you did, how you're feeling, the effort that has been made towards reaching your goal. If you so choose to do this, you might understand how some of us feel. Even if you fail, doing something is better than doing nothing, and a failure is just a lesson learned. 

[Aquila King]

9 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

This is going to be the last thing I say to you for a while. So here it goes. First, congratulations on having a job. I hope you are helping your mother out financially and with whatever physical things that need to be done. Second, I'm going to challenge you. I want you to get a 3 subject notebook and write on the first page what you want to have in your life within the next 10 years. Simple, complex goal or goals. Doesn't matter. But write it down and ask yourself if you're willing to pay the price for it. The time, effort, and energy to achieve this/these goals. If so. Keep that notebook and additional notebooks as a journal of life's progression. Write everything in it. What you did, how you're feeling, the effort that has been made towards reaching your goal. If you so choose to do this, you might understand how some of us feel. Even if you fail, doing something is better than doing nothing, and a failure is just a lesson learned. 

 

[+Liquid Gardens]

17 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

If my problem was "laziness,"

It's not, I don't see you having a problem with your arguments here, including this off-topic guff.  Keep in mind you never have to defend yourself against what someone else is literally imagining about you, they just do that (and misrepresent and straw man you) to avoid engaging with your actual position.  Kudos for trying to cut this political nonsense short earlier, there's a different cesspool here for that.  

[+Sherapy]

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

This reflects your priorities.

That is reasonable but not objective 

BOTH scientific thinking and faith are essential for human survival, well being and the evolution of our societies 

Humans rubbed along, roughly but well, for many millennia before scientific thinking emerged  And then it took many more millennia for us to learn the knowledge required to make effective use of scientific method and thinking.

I wasn't twisting your words, just rewriting them in a different way to reflect a difernt set of priorities.

Faith comes first in the evolution of human cognition. Scientific method is a very late starter,  and even today struggles to reach many human beings  as powerfully as their faith does  

Faith works. It evolved, as human self  awareness evolved, to provide a compensatory mechanism for the " terror of knowing"  which comes to all cognitively normal adult human beings

Faith kept humans going for a very long time after we evolved past the level of other primates, yet before we developed scientific thinking and a lot of knowledge and understanding about ourselves and our world.   

Try writing poetry or painting, using scientific method, and you will produce something of the quality that the most advanced AI can do and something far less than even a human child can accomplish.  Yet, for a long time now, advanced Ai' s have been able to beat the best human players a t chess.

Thats the difference; and illustrates  the degree of complexity, and difference in difficulty between creativity, abstract and symbolic thinking, and pure logic .   

You keep stating that faith works, faith works, but you fail to mention what it does actually do. 

I think what you are actually saying is you read a book about a Neurosurgeon who said angels helped him get through Harvard, you are taking this literal and feel validated for the tales you try and sell. 

I work for two Doctor’s at current, one is a critical care surgeon, Pulmonary is his claim to fame. The other one is a Neurologist, she works on Capitol Hill on Health Care Initiatives  both went to Harvard,  not on Angels, and god tales but on superior intellects. 

Have you ever been around genius, well if you were you wouldn’t be arguing this nonsense. 

To go to Harvard, then to go on to be a renowned Neurosurgeon you have to be one of the top 1 percent in intelligence, that a Neurosurgeon would put in print that he got through on angels and actually knowing Harvard graduates, what he is saying is that he felt at times he was getting by on a prayer, you can’t imagine how smart these people are that attend, even the smart ones are humbled! 

That you believe Carson was literally given answers to a chemistry test by angels demonstrates your gullibility and own ignorance, the not knowing any better kind. 

Sure, Ben Carson did some amazing things, but he is also has a crack pot when it comes to the things he says publicly about Science. Does he actually believe what he says, well who knows. 

Grow up Walker. Sheesh. 

 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Sherapy

[+Hammerclaw]

32 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

I have "left the nest" actually, and failed. Thus I came back, and am still working on my own personal issues with a therapist and psychiatrist now.

I've been perfectly honest and open on here about my past history of sexual abuse by my father from the brain's most developmental ages from 3 to 4, how I've suffered through extreme stress and anxiety in anticipation of a trial during my high school years only for it to be dismissed by a judge in a backroom, etc. I've suffered through the years with varying degrees of PTSD, ADD, Social Phobia, Panic Attacks, Agoraphobia, severe bouts of Depression and Anxiety, numerous thoughts of and an attempt at Sucide, etc. And all of these things have lead to natural struggles through school and with work alike.

I essentially suffer from a certain uncontrollable circumstance called mental illness, which is unfortunately used by most people as a derogatory slur, but it is what it is. If I were physically I'll most people wouldn't think a thing of it, but mental illness is unfortunately so often viewed as a moral failing on your part.

I have several legitimate issues that have made it difficult for me to work and function in the real world, and yes, the internet with platforms like this are what often helps me to heal and grow as a person. I shouldn't feel ashamed of what my father did to me, nor will I allow people like you to shame me for being in the state that I'm currently in.

I know from experience, that there are hard working people who struggle every day to do basic things that most other people just take advantage of. If my problem was "laziness," then I wouldn't have spent such a long time in the past working 10 to 12 hour shifts every day in a factory lifting steel wheels all day, on top of running near daily church programs after work at the time. My problem isn't "laziness," I'm sick. As are millions of other people.

I know not only statistically, but through personal experience, that there are millions of people who work their asses off and struggle to make ends meet, yet still live in poverty their entire lives. That's just how the system currently works. Personal attacks on me mean nothing to demolish that basic fact.

And furthermore, it appears as though you'd say the same thing no matter who it is, so long as they challenge the current system. If you're a millionaire or middle class, then you're a hypocrite. If you're working class or in poverty, you're just envious. What you really are is making excuses for why you won't provide an equal opportunity to those less fortunate than you in order to maintain your feeling of superiority.

I am working on my issues, and have become far stronger to even discuss this here with you in a completely calm unemotional manner. So say what you want. It's only ever ill informed words.

You'd know all about "ill informed words". You're full of them. Don't expect sympathy for your mental problems. Been there, done that, more than once. You're nothing special and it doesn't earn you a pass, here.