I don't believe you

[Dejarma]

13 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Faith is a psychological coping mechanism.

i take it you have faith in yourself- hence what you put forward in your posts

[Mr Walker]

6 hours ago, Aquila King said:

Some posters here I'm almost certain are just outright lying on a number of things, whereas others I view as being completely genuine. It just depends on the person really.

People make judgements about another's words based on their own experiences.  They tend to assume that common experiences are truth, and uncommon ones must be lies To take an extreme, if i say i have seen a dog,  almost every one will believe me, even though it could easily be a lie. If i say i have seen a god then most will not believe me, even if it is the truth.

  

[Mr Walker]

1 minute ago, Dejarma said:

i take it you have faith in yourself- hence what you put forward in your posts

Absolutely.  It was one of the cognitive  structures my parents taught me to build at an early age although it really only blossomed in my late teens.i was also taught that i could do anything and be anyone.  if i worked hard enough, and wanted it enough. 

Plus you can't be a good teacher without confidence in your self and  your world view. 

While teaching, I tried as hard to build self esteem and confidence in young people, as to teach them anything 

[Dejarma]

4 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Absolutely.  It was one of the cognitive  structures my parents taught me to build at an early age although it really only blossomed in my late teens.i was also taught that i could do anything and be anyone.  if i worked hard enough, and wanted it enough. 

Plus you can't be a good teacher without confidence in your self and  your world view. 

While teaching, I tried as hard to build self esteem and confidence in young people, as to teach them anything 

do you realize that the vast majority of members in here think you talk crap!? seriously- do you?

IMO= the fact you do not see it sums you up- all due respect...

but hey- in 100 years time, who's going to care.... have fun

[Jodie.Lynne]

People, especially those of the "believer" stripe, often conflate the terms "faith" and "reasonable expectations", in order to attempt to demonstrate that even non-believers 'believe' something.

I do NOT have 'faith' that my car will start in the morning, but have a reasonable expectation, based on past experience, and the fact that I maintain my vehicle, that it will perform as expected.

I do NOT have 'faith' that I will awaken tomorrow. I do however, have a reasonable expectation, based on my current health, that I will awaken.  That being said, there are known instances of 'unexpected sudden death', arising from unknown and/or unexpected medical illnesses. 

I do NOT have 'faith' that my friends and loved ones will behave in certain ways, rather I have 'reasonable expectations' about their behavior, based on past experiences and knowledge about their personalities.

 

Of course, all of my reasonable expectations can be upset by unforeseen circumstance.

My car could be run into, during the night, rendering it inoperable. I could suffer a fatal heart attack during the night. My friends and loved ones could say/behave in a totally uncharacteristic way.  These events would be totally out of my control, yet I do have expectations that the status quo will remain as such.

The statement, or belief that "even atheists have faith" is a strawman fallacy of the highest order, and should be set alit, whenever a believer brings it up.

 

Edited May 18, 2019 by Jodie.Lynne

[XenoFish]

Faith, what is it?

[Dejarma]

 

 

 

2

19 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

People, especially those of the "believer" stripe, often conflate the terms "faith" and "reasonable expectations", in order to attempt to demonstrate that even non-believers 'believe' something.

I do NOT have 'faith' that my car will start in the morning, but have a reasonable expectation, based on past experience, and the fact that I maintain my vehicle, that it will perform as expected.

I do NOT have 'faith' that I will awaken tomorrow. I do however, have a reasonable expectation, based on my current health, that I will awaken.  That being said, there are known instances of 'unexpected sudden death', arising from unknown and/or unexpected medical illnesses. 

I do NOT have 'faith' that my friends and loved ones will behave in certain ways, rather I have 'reasonable expectations' about their behavior, based on past experiences and knowledge about their personalities.

 

Of course, all of my reasonable expectations can be upset by unforeseen circumstance.

My car could be run into, during the night, rendering it inoperable. I could suffer a fatal heart attack during the night. My friends and loved ones could say/behave in a totally uncharacteristic way.  These events would be totally out of my control, yet I do have expectations that the status quo will remain as such.

The statement, or belief that "even atheists have faith" is a strawman fallacy of the highest order, and should be set alit, whenever a believer brings it up.

 

all your <I do NOT have> exist/ are real= faith is living a life around something that is not proven to be real== big difference

[Jodie.Lynne]

5 minutes ago, Dejarma said:

all your <I do NOT have> exist/ are real= faith is living a life around something that is not proven to be real== big difference

I do not understand this statement. Please re-word it so that I might grasp your intent

[Dejarma]

3 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I do not understand this statement. Please re-word it so that I might grasp your intent

cars exist/they are real...the possibility of it not starting is real....

having faith in something that has never been proven to exist is completely different

Edited May 18, 2019 by Dejarma

[Jodie.Lynne]

On 2/18/2019 at 10:07 PM, Jodie.Lynne said:

So, my question: 

Why do YOU continue to argue this issue?

To answer my own question:

I'm not going to, anymore.

Done. Fini.

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, Dejarma said:

do you realize that the vast majority of members in here think you talk crap!? seriously- do you?

IMO= the fact you do not see it sums you up- all due respect...

but hey- in 100 years time, who's going to care.... have fun

Don't know about "vast majority,"  but of course i know. They tell me constantly  

It makes me laugh.

  Everything i write is true (in that it has really happened to me, or can be verified from other sources)  This makes their disbelief both a little sad, and very funny. 

So what should i do ?

NOT tell the truth?  Lie just to be like everyone else, and feel the warm fuzzy glow of their approval? 

 NO. i wouldn't be here if my life was just like every one else's,  and i refuse to be shut up for telling truths about my own experiences in life which also inform others about the existence of  a greater reality to existence, which many cannot, or do not want to, see . 

So the opinion of some  other people, while sad, is both uninformed /wrong, and of no consequence. 

I understand it because it goes to their own lack of experience with such things and that was my life for many years. 

Once upon a time, while I was too nice to laugh at them out loud,  i would have had a quiet inner chuckle at anyone who told me the y had encountered angels and god and had their life saved by such encounters. Now i am older, wiser, and know better.  

I've never worried much about the opinions of others, but it does concern me that among young people (perhaps due to the  pervasion of the internet)  there is a growing fear of being different in any way or holding beliefs and opinions outside the norm. 

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, Dejarma said:

cars exist/they are real...the possibility of it not starting is real....

having faith in something that has never been proven to exist is completely different

No its not.

Both require faith invested in an unknown ie you know the car is real but you NEVER KNOW if it will start on any particular morning.

So every time you turn the key  is an act of faith on your part.

  Believing in a god you have no proof of, is the same as believing you car will start, (you have no proof of that, either, as yet)  NOT believing in the existence of cars.

it also serves exactly the same purpose ie allowing a person to go, on move forward,  and to act with confidence, despite not KNOWING the future.   

Edited May 18, 2019 by Mr Walker

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Faith, what is it?

Meh, that was as bland as Progresso Soup. Faith is five c-notes on Goldenrod in the fifth.

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

People, especially those of the "believer" stripe, often conflate the terms "faith" and "reasonable expectations", in order to attempt to demonstrate that even non-believers 'believe' something.

I do NOT have 'faith' that my car will start in the morning, but have a reasonable expectation, based on past experience, and the fact that I maintain my vehicle, that it will perform as expected.

I do NOT have 'faith' that I will awaken tomorrow. I do however, have a reasonable expectation, based on my current health, that I will awaken.  That being said, there are known instances of 'unexpected sudden death', arising from unknown and/or unexpected medical illnesses. 

I do NOT have 'faith' that my friends and loved ones will behave in certain ways, rather I have 'reasonable expectations' about their behavior, based on past experiences and knowledge about their personalities.

 

Of course, all of my reasonable expectations can be upset by unforeseen circumstance.

My car could be run into, during the night, rendering it inoperable. I could suffer a fatal heart attack during the night. My friends and loved ones could say/behave in a totally uncharacteristic way.  These events would be totally out of my control, yet I do have expectations that the status quo will remain as such.

The statement, or belief that "even atheists have faith" is a strawman fallacy of the highest order, and should be set alit, whenever a believer brings it up.

 

Of course you have faith in those things. 

That is what a "reasonable expectation" often is. 

Because it is impossible to know what will happen in the future, yet humans can see multiple futures, we evolved the cognitive trait of faith.

Ie acting with confidence, yet with no knowledge about the future.

If you had no faith you would not tum the key or go to  sleeep [ from worry about what MIGHT happen)  

The problem here is tha t atheists want to separate religious faith  (which they see as bad) from all other faith (which clearly is essential for survival.)

That is impossible.  Both have the same evolved cognitive cause and effect, and are exactly the same mental  process and construct.  

A theist would/could argue that the y have a "reasonable expectation"   that god exists, based on their life experiences

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Faith, what is it?

Some good points here

quote

According to Wikipedia, “Faith is confidence or trust in a person, thing, deity, or in the doctrines or teachings of a religion or view (e.g. having strong political faith). It can also be belief that is not based on proof. The word faith is often used as a substitute for hope, trust or belief.  In religion, faith often involves accepting claims about the character of a deity, nature, or the universe. While some have argued that faith is opposed to reason, proponents of faith argue that the proper domain of faith concerns questions that cannot be settled by evidence.”

 

Faith constrains the directions our energy goes. It’s like an engine cylinder’s hardened walls, which focus the otherwise omnidirectional gas combustion so the piston moves straight out in one direction.  Faith is like the insulation on circuits that keeps electrons from sparking every which way, forcing them instead down particular channels.  Faith is the river bank that keeps water flowing in only one direction, a force that can be used to generate electricity.

We all have faith, bets we live and work by. We should celebrate faith as means to our ends, but not as an end in itself.  And we should wonder more about faith, how it works, how much to have, where to direct it and what happens when our faiths conflict, as they often do

[Mr Walker]

30 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Meh, that was as bland as Progresso Soup. Faith is five c-notes on Goldenrod in the fifth.

And hope the jockey doesn't  suffer from hay fever.  

Yea I know it is an urban legend and not science, but why spoil a good  joke with scientific fact. 

Edited May 18, 2019 by Mr Walker

[Clarakore]

Show me your faith and I will show you my works....some have one or the other...I have no works yet am up for a trade...or down for one lolom

[Clarakore]

Faith to move a mountain is allowing your highs and lows to be treated the same....do not enjoy even passionate debate.....not too much and treat it the same as scathing flames....both from yourself...

Hating flaming on others is for sociopaths without consciousness or empaths who feel so much they begin to revolt their own shame...

 

Only after that did I get a little fate....I mean faith...

 

 

[eight bits]

5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Rather than go through all this i would just say that you see things differently  to me

Yes. The similarities between believing in religious fact-claims and crossing the street with confidence are superficial; the differences are profound. You disagree. Good for you, but there is no discussion in it for you and me.

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

i have no religious beliefs or faiths 

Then you don't take your own advice, repeatedly and insistently offered on these forums. Why should anyone else bother with it?

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

And you still don't get that past experience is NOT any form of evidence for future potential

And you still don't get the difference between a guarantee and evidence. That's an odd lapse for a former teacher of English. Neither word is exotic or baffling.

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Probability plays a part but not certainty

Probability suffices as a warrant for responsible action. I don't require certainty, and it's rarely on offer anyway.

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Without faith (but with the rest of our self aware intelligence warning us of dangers and risks),  we would never get out of bed, let alone cross a street, or drive a car, or go in an aeroplane 

The rest? That implies that there is some part of me that denies the dangers and risks. There is no part of me that denies that any airplane can crash. In fact, "airplanes can fly" and "airplanes can crash" are two ways of saying the same thing. You can't have one without the other. Gravity sucks. I board airplanes despite that, not because I pretend it isn't so, and not because my self divides on this non-issue.

[danydandan]

6 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Yes. The similarities between believing in religious fact-claims and crossing the street with confidence are superficial; the differences are profound. You disagree. Good for you, but there is no discussion in it for you and me.

Then you don't take your own advice, repeatedly and insistently offered on these forums. Why should anyone else bother with it?

And you still don't get the difference between a guarantee and evidence. That's an odd lapse for a former teacher of English. Neither word is exotic or baffling.

Probability suffices as a warrant for responsible action. I don't require certainty, and it's rarely on offer anyway.

The rest? That implies that there is some part of me that denies the dangers and risks. There is no part of me that denies that any airplane can crash. In fact, "airplanes can fly" and "airplanes can crash" are two ways of saying the same thing. You can't have one without the other. Gravity sucks. I board airplanes despite that, not because I pretend it isn't so, and not because my self divides on this non-issue.

Seems you put him back in his box. 

[+Hammerclaw]

26 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Seems you put him back in his box. 

Then the box is doomed--you know the routine by now.

Edited May 18, 2019 by Hammerclaw

[danydandan]

4 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Then the box is doomed--you know the routine by now.

I don't know, I've only ever seen MW just spew crapology in an attempt to circumvent the actual discussion where he knows he can't hold an argument. 

He said this. 

35 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Rather than go through all this i would just say that you see things differently  to me

@eight bits broke The Walker.

[+Hammerclaw]

3 minutes ago, danydandan said:

I don't know, I've only ever seen MW just spew crapology in an attempt to circumvent the actual discussion where he knows he can't hold an argument. 

He said this. 

@eight bits broke The Walker.

Oh sure. From years of this sort of thing, from my perspective, what I witnessed just now was this:

    Fine form, but that damn dot will just keep coming  back.

 

Edited May 18, 2019 by Hammerclaw

[Mr Walker]

48 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Yes. The similarities between believing in religious fact-claims and crossing the street with confidence are superficial; the differences are profound. You disagree. Good for you, but there is no discussion in it for you and me.

Then you don't take your own advice, repeatedly and insistently offered on these forums. Why should anyone else bother with it?

And you still don't get the difference between a guarantee and evidence. That's an odd lapse for a former teacher of English. Neither word is exotic or baffling.

Probability suffices as a warrant for responsible action. I don't require certainty, and it's rarely on offer anyway.

The rest? That implies that there is some part of me that denies the dangers and risks. There is no part of me that denies that any airplane can crash. In fact, "airplanes can fly" and "airplanes can crash" are two ways of saying the same thing. You can't have one without the other. Gravity sucks. I board airplanes despite that, not because I pretend it isn't so, and not because my self divides on this non-issue.

I dont need religious beliefs or faith 

I have the direct protection and guidance and empowerment of a powerful "god"   (that is the honest and logical answer even if not very  believable )  

However science  has proven that belief and faith offer  almost identical protection and empowerment to a believer as god does directly by physical intervention.

People should bother because the effects are powerful and beneficial. and proven by medical science . 

Guarantees come before an event and may or may not be real evidences come after an event and are real

When you go to sleep tonight you have no guarantee of waking up in the morning, but neither do you have a single piece of evidence that you will do You have to believe, in faith, that you will not die inyour sleep.  

I agree that probability is a good guide for actions but it is neither evidence for, nor guarantee of, future outcomes.  

You fly because you have faith that  the plane will not crash No guarantee no evidences before the event, only faith 

if that faith did not exist you would never fly.

Your faith is required precisely BECAUSE you are aware of the dangers of flying. A dog requires no faith to board an aeroplane  Any human does. 

 

Edited May 18, 2019 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

8 minutes ago, danydandan said:

I don't know, I've only ever seen MW just spew crapology in an attempt to circumvent the actual discussion where he knows he can't hold an argument. 

He said this. 

@eight bits broke The Walker.

lol No I am trying to cut down on time online and so i summarised. 

Ps my brief absence was down to watching the first 3 episodes of the modern Doctor Who in a row, and getting my wife some lunch.( Billie Piper beats you lot hands down)  

8 bits argues well and fluently/eruditely,  and i appreciate his point of view, but logic and science are on my side here