I don't believe you

[+Hammerclaw]

2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I dont need religious beliefs or faith 

I have the direct protection and guidance and empowerment of a powerful "god"   (that is the honest and logical answer even if not very  believable )  

However science  has proven that belief and faith offer  almost identical protection and empowerment to a believer as god does directly by physical intervention.

People should bother because the effects are powerful and beneficial. and proven by medical science . 

Guarantees come before an event and may or may not be real evidences come after an event and are real

When you go to sleep tonight you have no guarantee of waking up in the morning, but neither do you have a single piece of evidence that you will do You have to believe, in faith, that you will not die inyour sleep.  

I agree that probability is a good guide for actions but it is neither evidence for, nor guarantee of, future outcomes.  

You fly because you have faith that  the plane will not crash No guarantee no evidences before the event, only faith 

if that faith did not exist you would never fly 

 

Oh, I think he's quite cognizant it could happen, but that the law of probability is against it. That's my attitude when I fly. 

[Mr Walker]

Just now, Hammerclaw said:

Oh, I think he's quite cognizant it could happen, but that the law of probability is against it. That's my attitude when I fly. 

I added a last critical point. Humans evolved faith because we are self aware Faith allows us to cope and survive the awareness which we have of many things like danger death  etc. 

Other animals have no need of faith, as they have no such awareness, which requires a compensatory mechanism of the mind. 

[+Hammerclaw]

45 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I added a last critical point. Humans evolved faith because we are self aware Faith allows us to cope and survive the awareness which we have of many things like danger death  etc. 

Other animals have no need of faith, as they have no such awareness, which requires a compensatory mechanism of the mind. 

Humans always want there to be a why to things when things really just are. For animals there is no why, life just is. 

[XenoFish]

9 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Humans always want there to be a why to things when things really just are. For animals there is no why, life just is. 

In that regard, the animals are smarter.

[danydandan]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

lol No I am trying to cut down on time online and so i summarised. 

Ps my brief absence was down to watching the first 3 episodes of the modern Doctor Who in a row, and getting my wife some lunch.( Billie Piper beats you lot hands down)  

8 bits argues well and fluently/eruditely,  and i appreciate his point of view, but logic and science are on my side here   

I've never seen you apply logic to anything.

[+Hammerclaw]

42 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

In that regard, the animals are smarter.

In that regard, animals just are. Their existence is defined by just being in a world that is. The why of things does not enter into it. That is the defining difference between animals and humans. There was a threshold event in human consciousness when we were first able to formulate that question. It has led us to everything else we've become.

Edited May 18, 2019 by Hammerclaw

[XenoFish]

57 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

In that regard, animals just are. Their existence is defined by just being in a world that is. The why of things does not enter into it. That is the defining difference between animals and humans. There was a threshold event in human consciousness when we were first able to formulate that question. It has led us to everything else we've become.

I sometimes wonder if it was a good thing.

[+DieChecker]

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

A theist would/could argue that the y have a "reasonable expectation"   that god exists, based on their life experiences

I would tend to agree with this. I could describe my religious faith as being a "reasonable expectation" of various religious beliefs, based on personal experiences. Example being prayer. I pray and something appears to happen. I count that as a positive result, and with enough positive results, I have the expectation that praying for something will have some kind of effect.

[XenoFish]

Just now, DieChecker said:

Example being prayer. I pray and something appears to happen. I count that as a positive result, and with enough positive results, I have the expectation that praying for something will have some kind of effect.

Same can be said for my spell-casting and all those sigils I've fired. Prettied up affirmations is all. 

[+DieChecker]

3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I added a last critical point. Humans evolved faith because we are self aware Faith allows us to cope and survive the awareness which we have of many things like danger death  etc. 

Other animals have no need of faith, as they have no such awareness, which requires a compensatory mechanism of the mind. 

I've heard that elephants, dolphins and even crows/ravens are all self aware, and can recognize themselves as being individuals.

I've often wondered if elephants have some kind or religion. With the way they grieve over their dead and have what look like ceremonial actions.

[+DieChecker]

2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Same can be said for my spell-casting and all those sigils I've fired. Prettied up affirmations is all. 

A Christian would say, sure spells work, because some "demon" is powering them up to deceive the caster.

Would you, or would you not, (just asking...) consider a strong belief in magic like that to be a faith?

Edited May 18, 2019 by DieChecker

[XenoFish]

11 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

A Christian would say, sure spells work, because some "demon" is powering them up to deceive the caster.

Would you, or would you not, (just asking...) consider a strong belief in magic like that to be a faith?

I'd say it's all the same thing, taken from the same pool of emotions. Only using different methodology. As for faith, only in the beginning. Once you realize it's all about creating a change in consciousness, faith goes to the wayside.

Its the difference between faith and knowing. 

[+Liquid Gardens]

4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

You fly because you have faith that  the plane will not crash No guarantee no evidences before the event, only faith 

There is evidences before the event, I'm totally unclear at this point what you think evidence even is.  What term do you use for the fact that the vast majority of planes don't crash?  Looks like evidence to me, and rather potent.  That is overwhelming evidence from which to make a decision, faith is so unneeded in the face of those odds except maybe for the phobic, and that fact doesn't rely on faith at all.  Probability is evidence for future outcomes, everyone operates if that's the case and it's held up pretty well; if that wasn't the case then indeed there'd be a lot more indecision about crossing streets, and Vegas would definitely get very interesting.

[Essan]

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

I would tend to agree with this. I could describe my religious faith as being a "reasonable expectation" of various religious beliefs, based on personal experiences. Example being prayer. I pray and something appears to happen. I count that as a positive result, and with enough positive results, I have the expectation that praying for something will have some kind of effect.

 

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

A Christian would say, sure spells work, because some "demon" is powering them up to deceive the caster.

Would you, or would you not, (just asking...) consider a strong belief in magic like that to be a faith?

So do you conclude from that that a demon is powering up your spells (prayers) to make them work? 

, ,

[+DieChecker]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

I'd say it's all the same thing, taken from the same pool of emotions. Only using different methodology. As for faith, only in the beginning. Once you realize it's all about creating a change in consciousness, faith goes to the wayside.

Its the difference between faith and knowing. 

Yeah, but how many spell/magic users get to the point of realizing it is just a consciousness altering mechanism? I've known several "magic" users... well 2... and they just truly believed it was magic, no psychology with them at all. Though they were both under 30, so.....

[+DieChecker]

55 minutes ago, Essan said:

 

So do you conclude from that that a demon is powering up your spells (prayers) to make them work? 

, ,

I certainly hope not. I hope (Faith) that it is God/Jesus/HolySpirit doing the answering. 

Some say you can tell who answered a prayer by the "fruits" of the prayer. However I've been led to understand that even demons can do good things, if it eventually leads a victim toward doing wrong things. 

 

[danydandan]

1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I'm totally unclear at this point what you think evidence even is. 

I'm totally clear, that he has no inclination of what evidence even is..

But he has to stick to his narrative, or his God alien goes away. 

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, DieChecker said:

Yeah, but how many spell/magic users get to the point of realizing it is just a consciousness altering mechanism? I've known several "magic" users... well 2... and they just truly believed it was magic, no psychology with them at all. Though they were both under 30, so.....

Some do and some don't. The ones that don't, I guess need it to be magical. Similarly those of faith might need it to be spiritual. It's all about meaning and emotions. Which is highly individual and subjective. 

My issue comes down to I believe vs it's real. If someone believe, I don't care. It's those who make a claim that God is literally real. When they only have a personal experience to back up their claim.

I take it you believe, but won't claim it as fact. Correct me if I'm wrong. It works on a personal level for you. 

[Alchopwn]

On 5/17/2019 at 4:26 PM, danydandan said:

How is that an argument for us, as humans, being nothing more than our baser instincts? 

I'm not sure belonging, esteem and self-actualization count as baser instincts.  Surely that is limited to the three Fs?

[danydandan]

37 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

I'm not sure belonging, esteem and self-actualization count as baser instincts.  Surely that is limited to the three Fs?

I would have assumed it was, FDS.

Food, Drink & Sex.

[+Hammerclaw]

7 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I sometimes wonder if it was a good thing.

It was a natural thing, as with all life. Any good or ill is of what we do with it. 

[+joc]

On 5/17/2019 at 10:46 AM, Aquila King said:

1) I never watch any mainstream news outlets. I've said this to you on here multiple times before, so you're really just making this s**t up at this point.

2) Trump HAS insulted basically everyone except conservative white men, whether you agree with it or not. You can claim he didn't mean to or whatever till the cows come home, but fact is he did. Deal with it.

3) I've also told you countless times how I'm not a ****ing Communist, yet you continue to insist that I am regardless. You're just straight-up lying as if this is somehow a petty attempt at a smear.

4) There's little point in saying anything to you if you're just gonna outright ignore what other people tell you and just continue to believe and say whatever the **** you want to regardless. 

[+DieChecker]

5 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Some do and some don't. The ones that don't, I guess need it to be magical. Similarly those of faith might need it to be spiritual. It's all about meaning and emotions. Which is highly individual and subjective. 

My issue comes down to I believe vs it's real. If someone believe, I don't care. It's those who make a claim that God is literally real. When they only have a personal experience to back up their claim.

I take it you believe, but won't claim it as fact. Correct me if I'm wrong. It works on a personal level for you. 

I'd say that's true. I believe in God and the Christian teachings of Jesus. But, I can't point at evidence and say God, or Jesus, was real. In fact I believe evidence would ruin religion. It wouldn't take imagination and faith and belief. It also would mean if God was proven, then God's laws, and eternal punishment, must also be factual. Such knowledge would ruin every human society.

[+Sherapy]

12 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I'd say that's true. I believe in God and the Christian teachings of Jesus. But, I can't point at evidence and say God, or Jesus, was real. In fact I believe evidence would ruin religion. It wouldn't take imagination and faith and belief. It also would mean if God was proven, then God's laws, and eternal punishment, must also be factual. Such knowledge would ruin every human society.

For me, I can’t even fathom how a god would eternally punish and make laws that could be broken. Not much of a god, especially the way human’s have set it up is that this god is beyond human understanding and comprehension. 

Also this god has been defined as all good, either god is all good, incapable of harm, the smartest... or the idea is in error. 

In fact, evidence is ruining religion, it is getting harder and harder to fear monger/sell the idea. 

This god to shall pass. IMHO

Edited May 18, 2019 by Sherapy

[XenoFish]

10 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I'd say that's true. I believe in God and the Christian teachings of Jesus. But, I can't point at evidence and say God, or Jesus, was real. In fact I believe evidence would ruin religion. It wouldn't take imagination and faith and belief. It also would mean if God was proven, then God's laws, and eternal punishment, must also be factual. Such knowledge would ruin every human society.

Then you can see my problem. When people take all of that literally. Where they can justify horrible things because a religion told them so. Tossing reason and logic for the sake of their emotional needs.

If a god existed, I'd think it would be more concerned with what kind of person we are. Not solving our problems. Unconcerned about what religion anyone followed or didn't. But the quality of our character.