I don't believe you

[Will Due]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Atheism doesn't seduce people away from religion; religious people drive them away.

 

Another one. Always blaming others.

 

 

[+Pettytalk]

4 minutes ago, Habitat said:

“I have often wondered how it is that every man loves himself more than all the rest of men, but yet sets less value on his own opinion of himself than on the opinion of others.”
― Marcus Aurelius

Marcus assumed too much when he states "every" man. There are men/women who not only love others more than themselves, but actually hate themselves. And although true in many cases, setting less value on the opinion of our self is to be humble. A good stoic like our emperor should not be wondering why many are humble. The passage cited must be spurious, and not a genuine thought of his.

[Harte]

3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Nah, I'm kinda iffy about something that wants a lot of my info.

Don't blame you. Besides, you can't make any money from philosophy, so it's hard to pay for it.

Philosophy is its own reward, which means there ain't no other rewards that come with it.

Probably should just do it on your own.

Here's a good start:

Critique of Pure Reason

Harte

Edited May 25, 2019 by Harte
by cracky!

[+Pettytalk]

1 hour ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

"God" can do what it wants, 'because', with no rhyme or reason.

The reason is that God is so vain!

 

[+Pettytalk]

12 minutes ago, Harte said:

Don't blame you. Besides, you can't make any money from philosophy, so it's hard to pay for it.

Philosophy is its own reward, which means there ain't no other rewards that come with it.

Probably should just do it on your own.

Here's a good start:

Critique of Pure Reason

Harte

There is nothing pure in this world, although we do have plenty of critique.

[+Hammerclaw]

2 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

While I agree that some religious zealots can drive people away from religion, or faith, I don't think that is THE reason.

For some of us, there is an entire tapestry of illogic that drives us away, due to the fact that there are no satisfactory answers given to our questions. And the oft heard response to "Why?" being "God works in mysterious ways", is no answer.

Someone above stated that "Jesus died for your sins, but you have to confess your sins to be forgiven". But.... if 'god' is all knowing, then he knows your sins. Yes? If so, then the god-son's sacrifice to the god-father should extirpate the sin and 'confession' is meaningless. However, asking for forgiveness for one's sins is another issue entirely. "I confess that I did not take others feelings into consideration when I did what I did" is a far cry from "I am sorry for what I did, please forgive me". 

Earlier, I used the example of someone paying your debt for you, no strings attached.  Allow me to expand on it.

If YOU, HC, owed a debt for 1 million dollars, and I come up and say "Don't worry, the debt is gone, I took care of it for you.  Forget about it, and be prosperous!", the debt is handled, yes? 

Now, you may 'feel' indebted to me, but if I stipulated that I did it because I loved you, and to just go and live life, and I feel you owe me nothing. Do you still have a debt?

And, if I said that you owed me nothing, but then came to you later and told you "I need you to do something for me, remember how I wiped out your debt because I love you?", was my gift all that beneficent? And, if I did my act of kindness for an ulterior motive (lets say I wanted to thwart your debtor, for whatever reason), is my action a 'good' one?

 

While I am no Stephen Hawking, I do consider myself somewhat educated and fairly intelligent. I read, a lot. One that differentiates good stories from bad ones is a sense of consistent, internal logic.  Harry Potter is "believable", in a story sense, because things happen for a reason (magic). The magic works, and we can accept the outcomes, because it is logically consistent with the parameters of the Potter-verse.

Likewise, we can accept the actions and adventures of Captain America and the Avengers, because there is a sense of continuity and internal logic to the tale.

 

However, for me, the majority of tales and explanations for the actions and existence of gods lacks this internal logic and consistency.  "God" can do what it wants, 'because', with no rhyme or reason. If 'god' needs to do something that has not been demonstrated beforehand, he just can. Because, "god, duh!" But that same god cannot do something that runs counters to it's own desires or creations.  To which: god creates creature which act in opposition to their creators wishes, allowing 'sin' to enter the world.

'God" declares that sin and sinners must be punished. But, supposedly, this is a caring, loving being and is heartsick that its creations must suffer because of the rules that it has put in place. So, rather than contacting its creations and re-writing the rules and punishments, or abolishing these penalties altogether, the 'creator' has to violate a young woman (without her consent!) in order to manifest as one of its own creation, in order to suffer and die, to exploit a vague loophole in its own law, to circumvent its own dictates. And then claims that it has saved humanity from himself, and all debts are paid in full. Except, they are not and you are still subject to the same old law & punishments.

 

 

 

You just went full Wally on me, replete with a wall of text and parables of Atheism.  I'm not about to hazard that morass of a minefield.  Only someone with a troubled conscience goes to such lengths to justify antipathetical feelings concerning anything, especially religion. I can't help you with that. You're not alone in that, here, either. To paraphrase Pat Benatar, Religion and pain become one and the same in the eyes of a wounded child. You have every right to think religion is a crock and have no obligation to explain why. I don't like golf or tennis but I don't obsess  about not liking them. Neither do most irreligious over their disregard for religion. When people obsess about something like that and feel the need to explain, there's usually something deeper and more poignant going on. Feelings of or resentment of banishment and exclusion, being the object of disdain, love denied or withheld are a few of many. 

[+Hammerclaw]

3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I'm done. Good luck with this thread Jodie. 

Oh, don't be so petty. You can talk your way through this. Get angry; he won't like you when your angry. I now evoke Xeno Prime, unlock the shackles of civility and set loose the Kraken! XENO, COME FORTH!!!!

[+DieChecker]

7 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

That why other religious people are hazardous to you Faith, each, potentially, causing more damage than any ten atheists. Some people's idea of God is bizarre and infantile.

I've actually seen a church self combust when one individual decided he knew more of God then the Pastor, and drew off a third of the congregation into a kind of home church he tried to set up. These people ultimately became disillusioned and some went back, but many were too embarrassed, and haven't been back to any church since. Thus this one fellow personally accounted for several dozen people leaving the church, when what he meant to do was grow it in his own image. Turns out personality along does not create a functional church denomination.

Quote

Atheism doesn't seduce people away from religion; religious people drive them away.

I'd tend to agree with this. Many, if not most, of the former Christians I've met quit due to some hurtful event that some thoughtless person in Church Leadership allowed to happen. I don't know that I've ever met in person, anyone, who admitted they left Christianity due to atheistic reasoning/logic. I know such people exist, but I've never met one of them. Most leave due to some hurt, or out of laziness. 

[XenoFish]

5 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Oh, don't be so petty. You can talk your way through this. Get angry; he won't like you when your angry. I now evoke Xeno Prime, unlock the shackles of civility and set loose the Kraken! XENO, COME FORTH!!!!

I literally can not do that. Even if I wanted to. The axe has been drawn back and ready to fall upon my neck. I'm just going to put the trolls on ignore. 

[Jodie.Lynne]

6 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

You just went full Wally on me,

I don't know what that means, exactly, but I got the gist of it I think.

As to the rest of your statement, I'll be brief.

 

no

 

[Alchopwn]

3 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I'd tend to agree with this. Many, if not most, of the former Christians I've met quit due to some hurtful event that some thoughtless person in Church Leadership allowed to happen. I don't know that I've ever met in person, anyone, who admitted they left Christianity due to atheistic reasoning/logic. I know such people exist, but I've never met one of them. Most leave due to some hurt, or out of laziness. 

Actually many people leave because they were wanting some sort of proof of the divine.  They don't receive it, and so they stop reinforcing a defeat.

[+DieChecker]

1 hour ago, Alchopwn said:

Actually many people leave because they were wanting some sort of proof of the divine.  They don't receive it, and so they stop reinforcing a defeat.

Perhaps, but of the dozens of people I've personally spoken to, that wasn't the case.

You're assumption presumes a logic driven individual. Who is already predisposed to changing their religious expression due to evidence. And having been previously at least a marginal believer. That changes their mind, and is convinced by the evidence to leave religion. My opinion would be that such an individual, who is extremely logical, and yet a long time religious follower, to be rare. Perhaps only happening with late teen believers, who become disillusioned.

I believe religion in the US has dropped by like 5% in the last couple years. So that amounts to perhaps 16 MILLION people. Of those 16 million people, some of them were those teenagers I mentioned. Most though will have switched out by not caring, being lazy, or being hurt. I'll see if I can find any polls/statistics. 

Perhaps it depends on what you mean by "many"? Maybe you're OK with thousands?

EDIT:

This is a pretty interesting article.

https://www.prri.org/research/prri-rns-poll-nones-atheist-leaving-religion/

Edited May 25, 2019 by DieChecker

[Jodie.Lynne]

13 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Most though will have switched out by not caring, being lazy, or being hurt. I'll see if I can find any polls/statistics. 

Statistical evidence would tend to confirm your very bold assertion regarding the motives for atheism. 

Not to mention the extremely wide brush you are using to define atheism itself.

 

I'd say more, but then I'd be accused of being too verbose. 

 

Edited May 25, 2019 by Jodie.Lynne

[Harte]

4 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I've actually seen a church self combust when one individual decided he knew more of God then the Pastor, and drew off a third of the congregation into a kind of home church he tried to set up. These people ultimately became disillusioned and some went back, but many were too embarrassed, and haven't been back to any church since. Thus this one fellow personally accounted for several dozen people leaving the church, when what he meant to do was grow it in his own image. Turns out personality along does not create a functional church denomination.

I'd tend to agree with this. Many, if not most, of the former Christians I've met quit due to some hurtful event that some thoughtless person in Church Leadership allowed to happen. I don't know that I've ever met in person, anyone, who admitted they left Christianity due to atheistic reasoning/logic. I know such people exist, but I've never met one of them. Most leave due to some hurt, or out of laziness. 

Christianity itself does not depend on any church organization. People who leave the church aren't necessarily leaving their faith behind.

Harte

[+DieChecker]

18 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Statistical evidence would tend to confirm your very bold assertion regarding the motives for atheism. 

Not to mention the extremely wide brush you are using to define atheism itself.

 

I'd say more, but then I'd be accused of being too verbose. 

 

I didn't say anything about Atheism. I was talking about those who have left religion. Those people aren't necessarily atheist. The article I linked to said most of those who leave religion still (to one degree or another) believe in God.

EDIT: Went back and read post 4008 again, and see that Hammer was indeed referring to Atheists. So I can see where you could deduce I was speaking about atheists. 

Edited May 25, 2019 by DieChecker

[+DieChecker]

22 minutes ago, Harte said:

Christianity itself does not depend on any church organization. People who leave the church aren't necessarily leaving their faith behind.

Harte

True. And I agree not being part of a organized church/denomination doesn't make you any less a Christian.

The article I linked said that the growing number is not just the atheists, but the "nones", who don't claim a religion, but most of whom still believe in a higher power.

The article did also say that most of the "Rejectionist" catgory of the non religious did include most who disbelieved in God, and rejected the teachings of the religion of their youth. So, that might describe an atheist, I think. 

Edited May 25, 2019 by DieChecker

[XenoFish]

Those who have left religion may have become disenfranchised by their church or the faith itself, yet reduced their beliefs into a more spiritual model. Without all the hubris. Disappointment in the promises made in accordance to faith might have cause a falling out as well. 

[+Hammerclaw]

7 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I've actually seen a church self combust when one individual decided he knew more of God then the Pastor, and drew off a third of the congregation into a kind of home church he tried to set up. These people ultimately became disillusioned and some went back, but many were too embarrassed, and haven't been back to any church since. Thus this one fellow personally accounted for several dozen people leaving the church, when what he meant to do was grow it in his own image. Turns out personality along does not create a functional church denomination.

I'd tend to agree with this. Many, if not most, of the former Christians I've met quit due to some hurtful event that some thoughtless person in Church Leadership allowed to happen. I don't know that I've ever met in person, anyone, who admitted they left Christianity due to atheistic reasoning/logic. I know such people exist, but I've never met one of them. Most leave due to some hurt, or out of laziness. 

Comes natural for some. If I visit a church and there's a fuss going on I feel right at home, because I know they're Baptists. 

[+Hammerclaw]

4 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I don't know what that means, exactly, but I got the gist of it I think.

As to the rest of your statement, I'll be brief.

 

no

 

Not a very convincing argument--more like denial.

[XenoFish]

4 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Actually many people leave because they were wanting some sort of proof of the divine.  They don't receive it, and so they stop reinforcing a defeat.

Same goes for people who leave the occult. 

[+Desertrat56]

16 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Plus I hardly see a point in trying to "learn new things" like that in such a way. Lazy, stupid, both, perhaps still very much apathetic to my continued existence, meh. I don't know. Appreciate it though.

You could just go to the library and read some books by Kirkaguard, DesCarte, Emerson and Thomas Aquinas to start.  There are a lot  more to chose from.

[XenoFish]

12 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

You just went full Wally on me

Never go fully Wally. 

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Comes natural for some. If I visit a church and there's a fuss going on I feel right at home, because I know they're Baptists. 

My boss use to say "Don't be fooled by the perfect little appearances of the families in my (Presbyterian) congregation. Behind the scenes it "Game of Thrones". 

[Sword of the LORD]

1 John: 7-8 There are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, the blood, and the water: and these three agree in one.

When Jesus Christ came to this earth in the form of a man, God Himself was made manifest in human flesh. The Bible refers to Jesus Christ as the Word of God, and it is the Word of God that testifies through the Holy Ghost that the things which are written are true. On the earth, the blood that was shed at the cross bears witness that the Lord Jesus died for the sins of man. The waters of believers baptism testifies of one's personal faith in Christ. And the Spirit of God is who convicts man of his sinful state and reveals to his heart the truth of the Gospel.

 

[danydandan]

9 minutes ago, Sword of the LORD said:

1 John: 7-8 There are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, the blood, and the water: and these three agree in one.

When Jesus Christ came to this earth in the form of a man, God Himself was made manifest in human flesh. The Bible refers to Jesus Christ as the Word of God, and it is the Word of God that testifies through the Holy Ghost that the things which are written are true. On the earth, the blood that was shed at the cross bears witness that the Lord Jesus died for the sins of man. The waters of believers baptism testifies of one's personal faith in Christ. And the Spirit of God is who convicts man of his sinful state and reveals to his heart the truth of the Gospel.

 

Is this relevant to the ongoing discussion or the premise of the topic conveyed in the OP? 

Or are you just preachy preachy preachin?

Just a quick one for ye, if Jesus died for all our sins ( past, present and future). If no body ever sins, would his death have been in-vein? Which leads to another question, if we don't sin is not sinning a sin because we let Jesus die in-vein?