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Jodie.Lynne

I don't believe you

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Habitat
1 hour ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

alleged haunted area.

Haunted ? I've seen it dressed up as a mystery, not so much a "haunting"

Edited by Habitat

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Mr Walker
On 19/02/2019 at 3:04 PM, Mr Guitar said:

While I usually don't debate these things (waste of time as it's un-winnable), I do try to make comments that show the believers the error and lack of logic of their ways. I'll say it again: religion/faith is entirely based on the fear of death and things that are not understood. If you will just accept the fact that death is inevitable and the 'END', you will be much happier and not have so much to worry about.

You see that is plain wrong It has a small element of truth but is incomplete.

Faith/ belief is so much more than a response to fear. it is empowering, uplifting, joyous, and makes a human being more complete.  Haven't you ever heard a beautiful choir sing, or been in a glorious cathedral, or looked at examples of religious inspired art work  and felt the joy, wonder, and energy, transfuse your body? 

It answers questions generated in the human mind which are unanswerable by knowledge, yet which demand  being answered, for our psychological well being and comfort 

religion/ faith/belief is often not really even about an after life but abut how to enjoy life on earth and make the world a better place, while you live   

Edited by Mr Walker
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Mr Walker
On 19/02/2019 at 11:05 PM, Impedancer said:

Most things can be explained in a scientific way if you feel like debating you can debate things with people in a civil way remember to treat others as you would like to be treated. 

Unless, of course, you happen to be a masochist.  :) 

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Mr Walker
On 20/02/2019 at 1:48 AM, danydandan said:

Very pertinent post for this section and a very intelligent question. I feel I am not suitably qualified to give you a substantial answer. But I'll try non the less.

As you may or may not know I am a trained physicist, who happens to believe in God, (ever so slightly) as in if Atheist was zero and Theist was 10, I'm 5.01 on the scale. I feel nobody knows if there is a God, can know God's interests or intentions (if God has any in the first place) and I think that God created the laws of nature, and that everything is a result of these laws. As in everything we see is just a statistical probability as a result of these laws. 

Now to your question, why do I feel the need to argue against people who claim to know God? Well I suppose I feel obliged to offer a counter based on my belief outlined earlier, as history has shown that people claiming to know God and speak for it/him/her cause un-matched harm upon the gullible. I just can't stand idle while these harmful individuals cause harm. Whether they know the harm they are causing or not.

I for one would love to see @Mr Walker and @Will Due argue with each other about there interpretation of God, but it wouldn't belong in this section and I have no interest in the Religious section of the forums unless I'm conversing with @Marcus Aurelius because he is an actual Theologian and scholar. 

 

 

 

Why would we argue ?

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Mr Walker
On 20/02/2019 at 7:47 AM, Doug1o29 said:

First, I have pretty-much abandoned the field.  Reason and logic does not avail one of much.  In order to work, they must have facts to deal with and in discussions of gods and religion, there are no facts, just speculation.

I continue to hope that religionists will produce some workable ideas for discussion, but I find that in thousands of years there has been no progress made on many basic issues of religion:

Pelagius and St. Augustine debated free will around 408 AD.  We're still debating it on UM.

Why bad things happen to good people is the subject of the Book of Job.  The Bible couldn't produce an answer and nobody since has produced one either.

The date for Christmas was chosen by Constantine III to settle a feud between rival Christian factions, who were killing each other over issues of dogma.  Because the bishops couldn't decide, Constantine chose Mythra's birthday.  So now Christians celebrate Jesus' birth on Mythra's birthday.

The Dead Sea Scrolls not only preserve ancient versions of books of the Old Testament, like the Book of Isaiah, but they preserve several different versions of some of them.  And they explain the origin of Jesus' miracle stories.  Whoever wrote the Bible stories had been to Qumran and had seen the priestly ceremonies presented there.  Jesus' resurrection is also explained in those same scrolls - he didn't actually die on the cross - the resurrection was apparent, not factual.  Without its miracles, Christianity collapses.

I haven't looked at other religions, but those who have assure me that I would find much the same.

Doug

Why would Christianity collapse without miracles?

Buddhism didn't.

  Christianity can be, and is for many, a way of living, not a belief about miracles or life after death. It is known as a social gospel  and is  more predominant in Australia than Christianity based on miracles or eternal life.  

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Mr Walker
7 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Sociopaths rape and murder, but war gives license to evil and everyone can join in the fun. The crews of the planes that fire bombed Hamburg and Dresden did evil in the eyes of the innocent men, women and children they obliterated. We hailed them as heroes and pinned medals on them. It's not just bad people who are capable of committing horrific acts. Even the best of people can steel themselves to do them for the right reasons. I doubt many Allied women shed a single tear over the occasional acts of rape and pillage committed by Allied soldiers, either. War is the great moral equalizer.

Violence, even on a huge scale, is not innately evil. It depends on its purpose and effect. 

If nothing had been done to stop Germany or Japan during ww2, the world   would be a very different place today and certainly a much harsher one . 

If atom bombs had NOT been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki then, not only would more soldiers on both sides have died, but also in the end many more civilians, as the war went on and America  invaded the home islands of Japan. It is quite possible i would not even be here, as my father would then have been old enough to be called up, and might have died during the war.  

It doesn't even have to be i war. If i was in a shopping mall and saw someone randomly shooting people AND i had a means to kill them I would do so without any moral or ethical qualms and without any guilt or worry. We have laws to define what is considered moral ethical and what is not .

In my state if your home is invaded and you have a genuine fear of your life then you have a defence for  shooting, and even killing, an intruder  You will be taken to trial  but found not guilty if you  felt in fear for your life or well being. 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Jodie.Lynne
13 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

In my state if your home is invaded and you have a genuine fear of your life then you have a defence for  shooting, and even killing, an intruder  You will be taken to trial  but found not guilty if you  felt in fear for your life or well being. 

That is the same here, in the U.S. It is referred to as the "castle defense", as in "A man's home is his castle". You are not required to retreat from your home.

 

But I am confused as to what all this talk of violence and killing has to do with the topic under discussion.

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Mr Walker
2 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

That is the same here, in the U.S. It is referred to as the "castle defense", as in "A man's home is his castle". You are not required to retreat from your home.

 

But I am confused as to what all this talk of violence and killing has to do with the topic under discussion.

i was responding to a specific post by Hammerclaw.  i didn't really trace back the origins of that point, so i cant answer your question . 

I guess, basically, my response was that  violence is not by itself an evil or wrong act. It can be a "good" act, preventing greater harm.  

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Guitar
2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

You see that is plain wrong It has a small element of truth but is incomplete.

Faith/ belief is so much more than a response to fear. it is empowering, uplifting, joyous, and makes a human being more complete.  Haven't you ever heard a beautiful choir sing, or been in a glorious cathedral, or looked at examples of religious inspired art work  and felt the joy, wonder, and energy, transfuse your body? 

It answers questions generated in the human mind which are unanswerable by knowledge, yet which demand  being answered, for our psychological well being and comfort 

religion/ faith/belief is often not really even about an after life but abut how to enjoy life on earth and make the world a better place, while you live   

Actually, I'm not an emotional person probably due to spending too much time in a war zone in the 60's - it causes numbness. A cathedral, while it may be beautiful, is, to me, just a well done architectural/engineering project. I'm  a professional musician and also attended one of the most prestigious art schools in the country - any thing I see or hear along those lines is just 'ho-hum' to me - no magic and no secrets. I don't listen to music unless preparing for a gig and never draw or paint unless someone pays me to do something. I just don't see emotional content in things the way a lot of folks do - it' s all mechanics to me. Maybe it's a shortcoming, maybe not. 

Edited by Mr Guitar
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Jodie.Lynne

@Mr Guitar

Thank you for your response.

And THANK YOU for your service!

>HUGS<

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, Mr Guitar said:

Actually, I'm not an emotional person probably due to spending too much time in a war zone in the 60's - it causes numbness. A cathedral, while it may be beautiful, is, to me, just a well done architectural/engineering project. I'm  a professional musician and also attended one of the most prestigious art schools in the country - any thing I see or hear along those lines is just 'ho-hum' to me - no magic and no secrets. I don't listen to music unless preparing for a gig and never draw or paint unless someone pays me to do something. I just don't see emotional content in things the way a lot of folks do - it' s all mechanics to me. Maybe it's a shortcoming, maybe not. 

I am glad i am not you, but I have no criticism of your self description, or of who you are.

War and trauma affects people in many ways, and "shutting down" feelings is one of them. When sensations become too intense the mind has to reduce all sensations, to survive.  

What about the sea's surface  on a glassy still day, as you set out at sunrise for a day on the water? 

How about walking barefoot on freshly cut grass or  watching newborn lambs or kittens etc .

I can't see pictures in my mind but i do "feel" all sorts of things intensely, with many things bringing me great  joy and happiness. 

It is not magic or secret. It is simply the beauty of the world and of life.    

How do you have fun, and what do you do for sheer pleasure, and no other reason ?

Have you adjusted your life to a quieter place (and pace)  of living and working,  to reduce everyday external sensations and pressures?  

 

Edited by Mr Walker

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danydandan
6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Why would we argue ?

Do you and @Will Due have the exact same construct of God? 

Would you not like to discuss or indeed argue to discern who's construct is the best one?

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Unfortunately
On 2/19/2019 at 2:07 PM, Jodie.Lynne said:

Why do YOU continue to argue this issue?

That's an absolutely wonderful question, great post. Had to actually stop and have a good think about this.

For me personally, I consider the whole debate as more of an investigation. I tend to be quite skeptical about things and try to follow what verifiable evidence I can find (although I do still try to keep an open mind in regards to the absence of evidence if the person presents an intelligent/rational argument). As for arguing with people, it's a way for me to try and point out anything I believe to be flaws in their arguments as well as having others do the same for my own arguments. I like to pick everyone else's brain for why they believe what they do and compare it to my own beliefs.

I'm not out there to try and change anyone's mind, just trying to figure things out for myself. ^_^

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Doug1o29
12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Why would Christianity collapse without miracles?

Buddhism didn't.

  Christianity can be, and is for many, a way of living, not a belief about miracles or life after death. It is known as a social gospel  and is  more predominant in Australia than Christianity based on miracles or eternal life.  

Christianity, as described in the Nicene Creed, requires one to believe that Jesus died on the cross and then came back to life.  That is the defining "miracle," but just in case, there are seven others described in the Bible.  If these miracles are not true, then Jesus is not God.

Buddhism has no such requirement.

One can adopt a personal code based on what one thinks Jesus did/said.  But that is not the same thing as believing that Jesus was a god.

What defines a god?  Immortality.  Gods live forever.  Us mortals don't.

Doug

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Essan
On 2/19/2019 at 3:17 AM, papageorge1 said:

1) It's fun and challenging to debate

4) To learn and firm up my thoughts

:tu:


It's fun (usually) - and to be fair, I don't always take it too seriously ;) 

It's mentally stimulating - good for the brain!

It challenges your own beliefs and perceptions, helping you find flaws in what you believe (or reaffirming the certainty that you are correct) - although I appreciate that such testing and attempting to falsify a theory is perhaps too scientific a method for some  :P 

To educate the naive/gullible is also a reason on other forums (chemtrails, for example) but not within areas such as spirituality

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highdesert50

To 'argue' is a consequential action based on one's perceptions. Perception is filtered by one's beliefs. If one's belief is situated in either/or absolutes, then an impasse occurs. Rather than look the range of personal beliefs as absolutes, consider approaching it as a Bayesian event whereby a degree of belief is established yet allowed to wander as new information is introduced. One might expect a somewhat normal distribution, or 'bell curve' to emerge. While the propensity of agreement is central to the normal distribution, it still allows for the more extreme and hence less likely extreme beliefs to comfortably exist within a normal distribution. Indeed, even a miraculous event can comfortably exist within the natural universe if we perceive it within a Bayesian distribution of probabilities. How we perceive is filtered by belief. One must ask then, is situating oneself in an either/or belief ultimately self-defeating.

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Mr Guitar
9 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I am glad i am not you, but I have no criticism of your self description, or of who you are.

War and trauma affects people in many ways, and "shutting down" feelings is one of them. When sensations become too intense the mind has to reduce all sensations, to survive.  

What about the sea's surface  on a glassy still day, as you set out at sunrise for a day on the water? 

How about walking barefoot on freshly cut grass or  watching newborn lambs or kittens etc .

I can't see pictures in my mind but i do "feel" all sorts of things intensely, with many things bringing me great  joy and happiness. 

It is not magic or secret. It is simply the beauty of the world and of life.    

How do you have fun, and what do you do for sheer pleasure, and no other reason ?

Have you adjusted your life to a quieter place (and pace)  of living and working,  to reduce everyday external sensations and pressures?  

 

"How do you have fun, and what do you do for sheer pleasure, and no other reason ?"

I don't have much fun (and never have - too busy trying to live!). Even the music is no fun any more - it's just a grind. If I wasn't obligated to some people to do it, I probably wouldn't. For me, doing something (art, music) is a means to an end - $$$$. I've been told by my shrink that you're supposed to enjoy the journey but that's just not the way I'm wired - I need to get it done, get paid, and move on to the next job. Fun for me is a good night's sleep which happens about once a month if I'm lucky - PTSD is not a fun companion. If I had to sit down and do something for fun, I don't know what I'd do.

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Mr Walker
7 hours ago, Mr Guitar said:

"How do you have fun, and what do you do for sheer pleasure, and no other reason ?"

I don't have much fun (and never have - too busy trying to live!). Even the music is no fun any more - it's just a grind. If I wasn't obligated to some people to do it, I probably wouldn't. For me, doing something (art, music) is a means to an end - $$$$. I've been told by my shrink that you're supposed to enjoy the journey but that's just not the way I'm wired - I need to get it done, get paid, and move on to the next job. Fun for me is a good night's sleep which happens about once a month if I'm lucky - PTSD is not a fun companion. If I had to sit down and do something for fun, I don't know what I'd do.

I can't say anything much  without sounding patronising or condescending, but i wish you all the best in your life and hope you  either find a way to rewire your brain again, (modern psychology is finding ways to do this)  or find something which makes you weep for joy in your life. 

In the meantime, you obviously have great resilience and determination to live,  and i sincerely hope that is enough for you.    

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Mr Walker
10 hours ago, Doug1o29 said:

Christianity, as described in the Nicene Creed, requires one to believe that Jesus died on the cross and then came back to life.  That is the defining "miracle," but just in case, there are seven others described in the Bible.  If these miracles are not true, then Jesus is not God.

Buddhism has no such requirement.

One can adopt a personal code based on what one thinks Jesus did/said.  But that is not the same thing as believing that Jesus was a god.

What defines a god?  Immortality.  Gods live forever.  Us mortals don't.

Doug

And yet, perhaps most modern Christians (certainly in Australia, nether believe in heaven/hell or science defying  miracles but do believe that Christianity provides a social doctrine and template for better individual lives and a better world.

A god does not have to be all powerful all knowing etc. nor does it need to be immortal. A god can even be killed. 

Many Christians would see Christ and Buddha as enlightened humans who shared a divine spirit or spark that made them more than most humans.

Only seven miracles in the whole bible? Wow;  I've had/experienced  more than that in my own life.

Are you sure that is right? Do you include the old testament as part of your bible ? 

I have read that there are 83 miracles recorded in the old testament and a further 80 in the new.

 

    

Edited by Mr Walker

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Dejarma
On 19/02/2019 at 3:07 AM, Jodie.Lynne said:

Words I took to heart as I reflected on my reasons, and made a decision to no longer debate, question, or try to understand others beliefs

yet here you are starting this thread:rolleyes:

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Mr Walker
16 hours ago, danydandan said:

Do you and @Will Due have the exact same construct of God? 

Would you not like to discuss or indeed argue to discern who's construct is the best one?

Not necessary  No two humans have an EXACT same construct about anything or any body. 

Will's works for him. Mine works for me.

The only people I will argue with are those who believe gods don't exist, or that humans do not require beliefs to be complete, OR those who argue for a harmful/destructive religion or personal belief 

There is no more one BEST god for all, than there is one BEST woman (or man), for all.

We all have different needs and requirements, and must; take, shape, or perceive,  a god who meets those needs and requirements. (Or decide we can live without one at all.)   

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Habitat
48 minutes ago, Dejarma said:

yet here you are starting this thread:rolleyes:

Probably the first and last time I see sense on one of your posts. It's a long road that has no turning.

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Dejarma
52 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Probably the first and last time I see sense on one of your posts. It's a long road that has no turning.

:sleepy:

Edited by Dejarma
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Jodie.Lynne
2 hours ago, Dejarma said:

yet here you are starting this thread:rolleyes:

Yeah, not to discuss beliefs, but the reasons that people have the need to debate the issue.

 

Your point?

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Jodie.Lynne
2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The only people I will argue with are those who believe gods don't exist,

They don't. Period. End of sentence.

People delude themselves, or are mentally damaged into believing woo.

Not trying to change your beliefs, this is my personal, subjective, materialistic, rational belief. Please feel free to add any other "anti god" pejoratives I may have omitted.

You cannot argue, or debate this issue with me. I've given up trying to understand the theists position. And I am bone weary of trying to discuss the issue rationally.You have your beliefs, as do many others. I have come to the conclusion that no human can get me to change my position on this issue. 

ONLY a deity can do so. And since no deity has deigned to show me that they do exist, I will hold my position, until such time as a god-like being chooses to show me otherwise. But the odds of that happening are les than the odds of me winning the grand prize in the lottery.

 

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