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Jodie.Lynne

I don't believe you

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Habitat
8 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Indeed. 

In addition, it is not technically slavery if you are being paid !

Right, what a relief to know you aren't a "technical" slave ! 

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Habitat
Just now, Sherapy said:

I would like to be able to read the story myself. 

Too hard to find, but I will waste a couple of minutes looking.

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Habitat

Just the other day, there was a case that came to light of a woman who was keeping house for a very wealthy couple, who were using the threat of exposing her as an illegal immigrant, if she did not comply with their demands. They were paying her almost nothing. Yep, techicially not slavery, but the court didn't see that as extenuation, those people are off to jail for a spell.

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RoofGardener
10 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Just the other day, there was a case that came to light of a woman who was keeping house for a very wealthy couple, who were using the threat of exposing her as an illegal immigrant, if she did not comply with their demands. They were paying her almost nothing. Yep, techicially not slavery, but the court didn't see that as extenuation, those people are off to jail for a spell.

Hmm... interesting point. 

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Sherapy
23 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Just the other day, there was a case that came to light of a woman who was keeping house for a very wealthy couple, who were using the threat of exposing her as an illegal immigrant, if she did not comply with their demands. They were paying her almost nothing. Yep, techicially not slavery, but the court didn't see that as extenuation, those people are off to jail for a spell.

Good, they should do jail time.

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Will Due
Posted (edited)

 

What about wage slaves? Slaves to debt.

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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Habitat
1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

Bandwagon apologist. 

So you help by praising and espousing horrendous atrocities towards humanity, justifying and excusing them?

 

 

You do get a bit carried away. I don't endorse any kind of exploitation. let alone the extreme exploitation of slavery. It seems you get a feeling of superiority out of these outbursts, the real villains in this world rarely advertise their misdeeds. Many of them you would not even recognize as exploitative.

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Habitat
4 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

What about wage slaves? Slaves to debt.

 

 

I read somewhere that the average person only starts earning his own money about Wednesday, prior to that he is basically paying interest on his own debts, government debt, corporate debts, one way or another. Is that slavery ? Maybe it is, Monday and Tuesday.

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Will Due
6 minutes ago, Habitat said:

I read somewhere that the average person only starts earning his own money about Wednesday, prior to that he is basically paying interest on his own debts, government debt, corporate debts, one way or another. Is that slavery ? Maybe it is, Monday and Tuesday.

 

We're all slaves. One way or another.

We need to outlaw slavery.

 

 

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Habitat
8 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

We're all slaves. One way or another.

We need to outlaw slavery.

 

 

Some people are slave to misconceptions. Others are slaves to the expectations drummed into them by others. Others slaves to various addictions. Even slaves to their possessions. 

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Sherapy
32 minutes ago, Habitat said:

You do get a bit carried away. I don't endorse any kind of exploitation. let alone the extreme exploitation of slavery. It seems you get a feeling of superiority out of these outbursts, the real villains in this world rarely advertise their misdeeds. Many of them you would not even recognize as exploitative.

Phew, why didn’t you just say this right out the gates, glad to see you don’t endorse exploitation, least of all slavery. 

Peace

 

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

What about wage slaves? Slaves to debt.

 

 

Not the same thing, Will. Being in debt is a choice. 

Edited by Sherapy
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Will Due

 

 

If one man craves freedom—liberty—he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom. Groups of such liberty-loving mortals cannot live together in peace without becoming subservient to such laws, rules, and regulations as will grant each person the same degree of freedom while at the same time safeguarding an equal degree of freedom for all of his fellows. If one man is to be absolutely free, then another must become an absolute slave. And the relative nature of freedom is true socially, economically, and politically. Freedom is the gift of civilization made possible by the enforcement of LAW.

 

Link

 

 

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Sherapy
8 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

 

If one man craves freedom—liberty—he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom. Groups of such liberty-loving mortals cannot live together in peace without becoming subservient to such laws, rules, and regulations as will grant each person the same degree of freedom while at the same time safeguarding an equal degree of freedom for all of his fellows. If one man is to be absolutely free, then another must become an absolute slave. And the relative nature of freedom is true socially, economically, and politically. Freedom is the gift of civilization made possible by the enforcement of LAW.

 

Link

 

 

“Constitutional freedom refers to those freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution. Such freedoms are granted by the Constitution to its citizens and they can enjoy it under the protection of the Constitution. The freedom guaranteed under the Constitution includes the aggregate of personal, civil, and political rights of individuals. These freedoms are secured against invasion by the government or any of its agencies. Freedom of religion, speech, and press as guaranteed by the first amendment and the due process clause of fourteenth amendment are certain basic freedoms guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution to its citizens” (https://definitions.uslegal.com/c/constitutional-freedom/).

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Will Due
3 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

“Constitutional freedom refers to those freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution. Such freedoms are granted by the Constitution to its citizens and they can enjoy it under the protection of the Constitution. The freedom guaranteed under the Constitution includes the aggregate of personal, civil, and political rights of individuals. These freedoms are secured against invasion by the government or any of its agencies. Freedom of religion, speech, and press as guaranteed by the first amendment and the due process clause of fourteenth amendment are certain basic freedoms guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution to its citizens” (https://definitions.uslegal.com/c/constitutional-freedom/).

 

Thank you Sheri. I wonder if you might take the time to read the following. I really would like to hear your assessment of the ideas presented.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Spoiler

Law, Liberty, and Sovereignty

134:6.1

If one man craves freedom—liberty—he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom. Groups of such liberty-loving mortals cannot live together in peace without becoming subservient to such laws, rules, and regulations as will grant each person the same degree of freedom while at the same time safeguarding an equal degree of freedom for all of his fellow mortals. If one man is to be absolutely free, then another must become an absolute slave. And the relative nature of freedom is true socially, economically, and politically. Freedom is the gift of civilization made possible by the enforcement of LAW.

134:6.2

Religion makes it spiritually possible to realize the brotherhood of men, but it will require mankind government to regulate the social, economic, and political problems associated with such a goal of human happiness and efficiency.

134:6.3

There shall be wars and rumors of wars—nation will rise against nation—just as long as the world’s political sovereignty is divided up and unjustly held by a group of nation-states. England, Scotland, and Wales were always fighting each other until they gave up their respective sovereignties, reposing them in the United Kingdom.

134:6.4

Another world war will teach the so-called sovereign nations to form some sort of federation, thus creating the machinery for preventing small wars, wars between the lesser nations. But global wars will go on until the government of mankind is created. Global sovereignty will prevent global wars—nothing else can.

134:6.5

The forty-eight American free states live together in peace. There are among the citizens of these forty-eight states all of the various nationalities and races that live in the ever-warring nations of Europe. These Americans represent almost all the religions and religious sects and cults of the whole wide world, and yet here in North America they live together in peace. And all this is made possible because these forty-eight states have surrendered their sovereignty and have abandoned all notions of the supposed rights of self-determination.

134:6.6

It is not a question of armaments or disarmament. Neither does the question of conscription or voluntary military service enter into these problems of maintaining world-wide peace. If you take every form of modern mechanical armaments and all types of explosives away from strong nations, they will fight with fists, stones, and clubs as long as they cling to their delusions of the divine right of national sovereignty.

1,491

War is not man’s great and terrible disease; war is a symptom, a result. The real disease is the virus of national sovereignty.

134:6.8

Urantia nations have not possessed real sovereignty; they never have had a sovereignty which could protect them from the ravages and devastations of world wars. In the creation of the global government of mankind, the nations are not giving up sovereignty so much as they are actually creating a real, bona fide, and lasting world sovereignty which will henceforth be fully able to protect them from all war. Local affairs will be handled by local governments; national affairs, by national governments; international affairs will be administered by global government.

134:6.9

World peace cannot be maintained by treaties, diplomacy, foreign policies, alliances, balances of power, or any other type of makeshift juggling with the sovereignties of nationalism. World law must come into being and must be enforced by world government—the sovereignty of all mankind.

134:6.10

The individual will enjoy far more liberty under world government. Today, the citizens of the great powers are taxed, regulated, and controlled almost oppressively, and much of this present interference with individual liberties will vanish when the national governments are willing to trustee their sovereignty as regards international affairs into the hands of global government.

134:6.11

Under global government the national groups will be afforded a real opportunity to realize and enjoy the personal liberties of genuine democracy. The fallacy of self-determination will be ended. With global regulation of money and trade will come the new era of world-wide peace. Soon may a global language evolve, and there will be at least some hope of sometime having a global religion—or religions with a global viewpoint.

134:6.12

Collective security will never afford peace until the collectivity includes all mankind.

134:6.13

The political sovereignty of representative mankind government will bring lasting peace on earth, and the spiritual brotherhood of man will forever insure good will among all men. And there is no other way whereby peace on earth and good will among men can be realized.

 

 

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Liquid Gardens
5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I only defend it, where removing it would  have caused far worse conditions for far more people, including both slaves and free.

But you don't know this, you are guessing.  It was not necessary to have slaves in order for 'society' to survive.  It may have been necessary in order for society to progress as quickly and in the way it did, duh, and it may have given certain societies advantages, but that doesn't make it right, more acceptable, or necessary.

As far as the line about how slavery isn't homogeneous and slavery back then wasn't the same as slavery of Africans in America, I'd note that even the Bible has instruction on the Christian way to beat your slaves.  That's a sufficient amount of wrong for me.

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Liquid Gardens
3 hours ago, Habitat said:

What I read did not approve of slavery.

What I read was a lot more than your caricature that he's, 'merely indicating it was regarded as a "natural" part of the order of society in times past'.

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jmccr8
5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 and could not survive on their own resources

Hi Walker

Who exactly the rich or the poor, oh I am too important to get calluses on my hands and get them dirty?:lol:

5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

and the state simply let them die in the thousands  

I would like to see the documentation that supports this as from what I have read is that thousands have died from being in the state of slavery.:unsure:

jmccr8

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Habitat
Posted (edited)

If you are conscripted into an army against your will, and will be shot for desertion, is that slavery ? Or are you just doing your duty ? 

Edited by Habitat

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jmccr8
3 hours ago, Habitat said:

Did you know that until comparatively recent times, sailors who "jumped ship" whilst in port, could be subject to long jail terms ?

Hi Habitat

Many men that jumped ship were shanghaied or forced labor so not much of a step down to being imprisoned.:lol:

jmccr8

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Rlyeh
14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

But again, you  cant say they were morally wrong in their times. You don't get to decide what was right or wrong in the past, just as the future cant judge your beliefs attitudes and values.   

By this logic we can't say burning people to death for blasphemy was wrong.

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danydandan
35 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

By this logic we can't say burning people to death for blasphemy was wrong.

Actually by his logic everything is acceptable.

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Pettytalk
On 2/18/2019 at 8:07 PM, Jodie.Lynne said:

Imagine, if you will, a day when all the doubters, sceptics, atheists and general non-believers decided to give up trying to rationalize and discuss with believers on these forums.

I suppose the ufo/crypto/psi/alternative history/ghosts & paranormal forums would all become echo chambers as the faithful of those areas run rampant, high-fiving each other and reinforcing their beliefs with anecdotal tales, spurious articles and dubious videos.

 

In the theological section, I think there would be a collected sigh of relief that the nasty rationalists had surrendered and given up the field. But I feel that it wouldn't take long for the true believers started to tear into one another, like blood frenzied sharks, as they argued over whose god-construct was real and whose was untenable. Soon enough, the same epithets and accusations that are levelled against the atheists, would be hurled against different factions of true believers.

 

For now, there is an uneasy alliance between the believers of different deities, following the age-old principle of "The enemy of my enemy...", with doubters being the 'enemy'. While there are a few theists whose views I can admire and respect, most fall into the category of lesser respectable posters. Those who fall back on hyperbole, ridicule, and out right illogic when it comes to defending their claims.

As one erudite and wise man posted, and I am paraphrasing most horribly, "Why continue to try?" Words I took to heart as I reflected on my reasons, and made a decision to no longer debate, question, or try to understand others beliefs. As has been pointed out, faith is apparently a very personal thing, and cannot be demonstrated to another.

 

So, my question: 

Why do YOU continue to argue this issue?

If that is your question, then my answer is that I like to get on certain posters' ignore lists! Especially those that are so arrogant as to make out ALL doubters, skeptics, atheists and general non-believers to be Rational. The same can be said of those, so-called believers who are 100% certain of their faith. Faith is not faith without a teensy-weensy of doubt. 

What is so rational about not having people like you around to remind the believers of their irrational beliefs? You, collective you, meaning all you 100% rational people make the world so much fun, as you put doubt on the pedestal for us. The most noted faithful men.and women of history have doubt to thank for their faith. The believers, who believe solely on faith, cannot argue within their irrational group, as faith is not debatable, rationally speaking. Therefore it's people like you that we believers are left with. Unless we are placed on the ignore list for showing them that they are not so rational at times, as they believe themselves to be. To be rational one must know everything. Because without that absolute knowledge we are all mere, doubtful mortals, armed with only opinions. And we all, at least know just what an irrational animal man can be. Irrational to the point of claiming to be 100% rational.

Life would not be any fun without a little bit of doubt, rationally speaking. The world is made up of opposites, and we need both believers and non-believers to generate that little bit of needed doubt...doubt is the spice of life.

However, you get credit for being the OP of  a good and rational post, because many participants have shown their arrogance, while a few have shown their modesty, as it comes to really know the nature and essence of God. As a very wise man once said about God, "The Father and Maker of all this universe is past finding out; and even if we found him, to tell of him to all men would be impossible." Especially to those who believe they are rational beings.

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danydandan
50 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

If that is your question, then my answer is that I like to get on certain posters' ignore lists! Especially those that are so arrogant as to make out ALL doubters, skeptics, atheists and general non-believers to be Rational. The same can be said of those, so-called believers who are 100% certain of their faith. Faith is not faith without a teensy-weensy of doubt. 

What is so rational about not having people like you around to remind the believers of their irrational beliefs? You, collective you, meaning all you 100% rational people make the world so much fun, as you put doubt on the pedestal for us. The most noted faithful men.and women of history have doubt to thank for their faith. The believers, who believe solely on faith, cannot argue within their irrational group, as faith is not debatable, rationally speaking. Therefore it's people like you that we believers are left with. Unless we are placed on the ignore list for showing them that they are not so rational at times, as they believe themselves to be. To be rational one must know everything. Because without that absolute knowledge we are all mere, doubtful mortals, armed with only opinions. And we all, at least know just what an irrational animal man can be. Irrational to the point of claiming to be 100% rational.

Life would not be any fun without a little bit of doubt, rationally speaking. The world is made up of opposites, and we need both believers and non-believers to generate that little bit of needed doubt...doubt is the spice of life.

However, you get credit for being the OP of  a good and rational post, because many participants have shown their arrogance, while a few have shown their modesty, as it comes to really know the nature and essence of God. As a very wise man once said about God, "The Father and Maker of all this universe is past finding out; and even if we found him, to tell of him to all men would be impossible." Especially to those who believe they are rational beings.

Both ends of the Atheist - Theist spectrum are beliefs and based on faith. Being truly rational is saying we don't know and being truly Agnostic is the nearest thing to a purely logical stance. But alas it's not something I think anyone can truly be, I'm certainly not anyways.

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Essan
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Both ends of the Atheist - Theist spectrum are beliefs and based on faith. Being truly rational is saying we don't know and being truly Agnostic is the nearest thing to a purely logical stance. But alas it's not something I think anyone can truly be, I'm certainly not anyways.

I disagree,  Atheism is simply saying "there is no reason to suppose this thing, so why should we?"

Or do you agree we should be agnostic towards the possibility of invisible 200 mile wide cups of coffee orbiting the Sun?   Something I think about far more often than I think about the possibility of the existence of an undefined "something" that some argue must exist.

Edit: notwithstanding which, I fully accept and understand the reasons some people believe in, and have a need to believe in, and undefined "something" they call god.


Of course, if by "god" people just mean nature, it all makes perfect sense. And I am then a theist.

Edited by Essan
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