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Jodie.Lynne

I don't believe you

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eight bits
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Ah I see You think of coping mechanisms as unthinking/subconscious. 

I don't know what the string unthinking/subconscious means. Some coping mechanisms are conscious. It seems clear that many people of faith are consciously aware of having faith. If asked, some can give lists of mental health benefits that come from having faith, a plain sign of conscious apprehension of the coping quality of their situation.

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Why correct it, unless it is also doing some overt harm?

First, because to correct the mechanism, you learn about it; all self-knowledge is precious and potentially useful. Second, it is possible to have the benefits without the undesirable effects of an otherwise incorrigible mistaken conviction about other people and events.

Third and finally for now, some of us think that having correct convictions is a good thing in itself; we don't feel we have to be rewarded for it beyond its inherent goodness. Even if you disagree with that, you seem (in nearby posts) to appreciate the dangers of misperception of the environment. Misunderstanding carries similar risks.

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

You don't need to know how a plane flies, to have faith that it will.

As it happens, I don't know how a plane flies in any useful detail, but I do know that planes fly based on extensive experience. I am unsure, then, what this is supposed to be an example of.

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

You don't have to know that you will wake up the next morning, to have faith that you will.

I am similarly unsure what this is supposed to be an example of. I expect to be alive for the rest of today. One day, I will be mistaken in that expectation. One  day. Every member here has already survived more than 4,700 days. Therefore, the expectation seems evidence based, not anything to do with faith.

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I don't know any human beings who live without any faith.

That could be. We agree that coping mechanisms are ubiquitous, maybe every possible coping mechanim is used by everybody to some degree. That doesn't seem to be what we're talking about when we speak of a person of faith.

Then again, maybe the human beings you know aren't a representative sample of the species. Could be, eh?

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Those who lose all faith tend to die, either from suicide or giving up hope.

And some people die because of their faith. A few paragraphs back, I was thinking about posting a clip One day more from Les Miz. That ensemble piece very much features some people of faith who die because of it.

We can get the benefits of faith without the undesirable collateral risks. That's one reason why we should correct it. And One day more is its own reward:

 

 

 

Edited by eight bits
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joc
17 hours ago, Aquila King said:

Well that is pretty much the case. From my point of view to be a Trump supporter is to insult basically everyone except conservative white men. His entire campaign and presidency has just been one massive insult towards basically everyone from Mexicans, Muslims, Black people, Democrats/liberals, Milennials, Jews, Women, poor people, etc. 

Wow, you are not a shill for the Global Leftist Media at all....or are you?  I mean, you did...in one sentence...list every adjective of the Narrative!  

And to equate everyone who supports Trump with that narrative is considerably naive, hypocritical in it's own right and shallow as hell.  I hope I have now sufficiently insulted you and given you a reason to actually dislike me.  Nonetheless, feel free to continue with your mindless drivel.  Thank God for the Global Leftist Media telling you what to think...at least you have some thought process going on in there..not a good one, nor a healthy one mind you, but I guess glomming on to a Socialist/Communist Narrative is better than being completely brain dead. :)

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, danydandan said:

What Rapidmongoose is saying is we are only our base instincts and our needs evolve to meet these in various ways. 

While I agree that there is obviously a significant connection between the two, often we aren't look to meet our basic needs. By that I mean eating, sexing, breathing, living. 

Ah base as in lowest common denominator not as in a base metal.

Humans are NOT, of course, only  their base instincts, or we would be indistinguishable from all other primates.

We are what we construct and make ourselves  to be, as a consequence of our self aware consciousness.

Generally all humans seek to meet their primate needs (eating sexing breathing and living)  But we  ALSO modify our behaviours to be acceptable to constructed values, beliefs, and  ideals because those are important to us, or because fitting into a society is necessary to meet our social needs.

So a priest might not have sex for spiritual reasons, or a person might go hungry to lose weight,  or a human being might decide life is not worth living, and end it.  

 Non human animals don't do ANY of those things. 

 

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Mr Walker
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, eight bits said:

I don't know what the string unthinking/subconscious means. Some coping mechanisms are conscious. It seems clear that many people of faith are consciously aware of having faith. If asked, some can give lists of mental health benefits that come from having faith, a plain sign of conscious apprehension of the coping quality of their situation.

First, because to correct the mechanism, you learn about it; all self-knowledge is precious and potentially useful. Second, it is possible to have the benefits without the undesirable effects of an otherwise incorrigible mistaken conviction about other people and events.

Third and finally for now, some of us think that having correct convictions is a good thing in itself; we don't feel we have to be rewarded for it beyond its inherent goodness. Even if you disagree with that, you seem (in nearby posts) to appreciate the dangers of misperception of the environment. Misunderstanding carries similar risks.

As it happens, I don't know how a plane flies in any useful detail, but I do know that planes fly based on extensive experience. I am unsure, then, what this is supposed to be an example of.

I am similarly unsure what this is supposed to be an example of. I expect to be alive for the rest of today. One day, I will be mistaken in that expectation. One  day. Every member here has already survived more than 4,700 days. Therefore, the expectation seems evidence based, not anything to do with faith.

That could be. We agree that coping mechanisms are ubiquitous, maybe every possible coping mechanim is used by everybody to some degree. That doesn't seem to be what we're talking about when we speak of a person of faith.

Then again, maybe the human beings you know aren't a representative sample of the species. Could be, eh?

And some people die because of their faith. A few paragraphs back, I was thinking about posting a clip One day more from Les Miz. That ensemble piece very much features some people of faith who die because of it.

We can get the benefits of faith without the undesirable collateral risks. That's one reason why we should correct it. And One day more is its own reward:

 

 

 

Maybe its because you see religious faith as somehow separate from general faith . But the plane and waking up are examples of how we take things on trust and faith.

You might know how an aeroplane flies but you cant Know the one you are flying on will not crash. Thus every flight is an act of faith.

Similarly, you cant know you will not die in your sleep, so going to sleep is an act of faith  This is the same with religious faiths You cant know a god exists but you decide on faith that one does because that faith makes your life livable . You cant fly on a plane confidently without faith You cant go to sleep at night happily without faith and you cant survive life in any meaningful way without faith.

 

A religious element of faith is just one sub component of the general construct of faith, by which humans survive  

My question was, why correct a mechanism which has evolved to serve a useful purpose ? Be aware of it certainly but there is no need to correct or remove it  it is there for a good resewn 

This sounds a bit like  the argument that it is better to live life without belief and hope, just because, (one believes) this is more honest and true 

Third and finally for now, some of us think that having correct convictions is a good thing in itself; we don't feel we have to be rewarded for it beyond its inherent goodness. Even if you disagree with that, you seem (in nearby posts) to appreciate the dangers of misperception of the environment. Misunderstanding carries similar risks.

Not sure how this is relevant 

First how do you know your convictions or beliefs are correct? 

Second Only a foolish person would deliberately make their life harder than it needs to be.  So  sensible people  do things which bring them "rewards" rather  than those who bring  them pain or suffering 

Ppain and pleasure /comfort and discomfort  are also evolved responses which enable us to chose the more appropriate and constructive  behaviours 

( I might have misunderstood what you are saying here but i have answered it as i understood it) 

Nup Speaking of general faith i have never met a human being without it, except for a few  who committed suicide soon after.  I was not speaking of religious faith. I know plenty of agnostics and atheists  But out of the tens of thousands of people (well at least 20000 using a quick statistical calculation)   whom  i have come to know quite well over my life. I have never encountered one who lived without faith, hope or belief, in something  

Apparently you can't get the benefits of religious faith with anything else, although some things can come close. And one could argue convincingly that religious faith  doesn't need to have costs, while many other  similar mechanisms can be costly and dangerous. 

But there is NOTHING which can replace general faith in; self, life, the future, other human beings,  etc. 

This last is entirely subjective but to die for something you believe in voluntarily is brave, noble, honourable, constructive etc. To die from lack of faith in yourself or others, to give up, to allow hopelessness to drive you to suicide  is none of those things.  It is a tragedy from which no one benefits, and no good comes  

This does not apply to those with clinical depression whose illness requires treatment,  or those in chronic and untreatable pain,  but to people who just give up on life. 

You touch on a point that i did not really clarify 

ie the plane and going to sleep 

Prior  experience is not evidence for future possibility  

The belief that it is seems to be one of those coping mechanisms we are speaking of 

When you hop on a plane or go to sleep all past history is irrelevant. you now face a whole new set of possibilities  ANYTHING is possible this time and has no connection to what happened in the past.   

Another example. We switch on dozens of lights every day We never do an inspection of the bulb first   Sure, every day the light switches on ( until one day it doesn't)   The act of switching a light on is an act of faith every time you do it because the  future is unknown and unknowable and not dependent on the past.

  We operate this way because of the net returns and costs.   ie Generally it takes more effort than it is worth to check a light bulb every time and there is little cost or inconvenience if it does not turn on.  and we assume the plane has been properly inspected, and our need to fly outweighs the risk. 

If we had no faith we would do an inspection of the light bulb, every time, before we flipped the switch, and would NEVER fly on a plane unless we KNEW it was safe to do so   

Edited by Mr Walker

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eight bits
39 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Maybe its because you see religious faith as somehow separate from general faith . But the plane and waking up are examples of how we take things on trust and faith.

Speak for yourself. I believe that planes fly, and that the regulated ones usually fly well, because of evidence that supports that view. To be candid, I don't ever worry about dying in my sleep, not only because of evidence that it is unlikely for me in my current state of health, but because that's probably among the better ways to go.

All words have elasticity, and if you want to stretch faith to denote all occasions of trust, even trust based on long term observation of both worthy behavior and also possession of a well-established and stable personality, then good for you. But you will need to find somebody else to discuss it with. It's not an interesting way to use the term, IMO, and I am untrusting enough to suspect an agenda behind it. An agenda of which I want no part.

49 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

You cant know a god exists but you decide on faith that one does because that faith makes your life livable

A nice example of projection, I think. You say you but I bet you mean yourself. Indeed, I can't and don't know whether a god exists, but have not decided on faith, and I live my life quite well without religious faith, thank you.

58 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

My question was, why correct a mechanism which has evolved to serve a useful purpose ?

What evolved is the capacity for certain kinds of thought. What thoughts realize that capacity is contingent. Like opposable thumbs. The thumbs are the product of biological evolution; the phone on which somebody bangs out text messages with those thumbs is something else.

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

First how do you know your convictions or beliefs are correct? 

I don't. Quite a few of mine are wrong; if only I knew which ones. But (if I may borrow a line from The Lion in Winter), I may as well ask whether the air is good to breathe. I have to work with the beliefs and convictions I have, including keeping an eye out for identifying and correcting some of the wrong ones.

What I do know is that there are some ways of adopting beliefs and convictions that tend to truthful belief formation, and there are other ways that do not. That's all I was discussing at the place you quoted.

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Second Only a foolish person would deliberately make their life harder than it needs to be. 

You say you did. Your life would have been easier had you kept that million you say you gave away.

Ease is a value, please don't misunderstand me, but it is not the only value a non-foolish person might embrace.

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Apparently you can't get the benefits of religious faith with anything else, although some things can come close.

Apparently? Appearance is in the eye of the beholder. And what's the matter with close? I recall our friend @XenoFishwisely noting, from his experience with machine tools, that the object isn't perfection, but precision.

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Prior  experience is not evidence for future possibility  

Prior experience does not guarantee future results, but it usually is evidence.

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

We operate this way because of the net returns and costs.   ie Generally it takes more effort than it is worth to check a light bulb every time and there is little cost or inconvenience if it does not turn on.

Ah, so you do understand the comparison of risks and rewards. Now you understand why I might get on an airplane, or for that matter. cross the street.

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

If we had no faith we would do an inspection of the light bulb, every time,

No we wouldn't. As you just (almost) said, the cost of that policy far exceeds any plausible benefit.

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XenoFish

Precision and function. Perfection is just a concept. I've yet to come across anything "perfect". 

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Precision and function. Perfection is just a concept. I've yet to come across anything "perfect". 

But, but, you just posted in a perfect disaster...…..:huh:

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Liquid Gardens
3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Independent physical reality exists, and is not dependent on human perception BUT humans do, and can, perceive the same reality in many different ways, 

This doesn't alter the physical reality, but it does alter our inner understanding and perception of that reality 

If your experiences were not  "literal truth,"  you would die, and quite quickly.  

(I moved this from Xeno's other thread which he's trying to keep on topic)

Your first sentence contradicts the last to some extent.  Agreed, humans do perceive the same reality in many different ways, and thus only one of those, at best, is the literal truth.  Following from that, it seems logically, and evidentially, that since some people are misperceiving reality then they are also misinterpreting it.  Despite those experiences then not actually being the literal truth, there are many of them that are not fatal nor even threatening to your health.  If someone mistakes the planet Venus for an alien spaceship, a tremor for a poltergeist, a black blob in the woods for Bigfoot, that's usually not life-threatening.

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XenoFish

In many ways we program our subjective reality.

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Hammerclaw
Just now, XenoFish said:

In many ways we program our subjective reality.

We make **** up? Nah, that never happens.:rofl:

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XenoFish
Just now, Hammerclaw said:

We make **** up? Nah, that never happens.:rofl:

That's all that happens really. 

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XenoFish
9 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

(I moved this from Xeno's other thread which he's trying to keep on topic)

Your first sentence contradicts the last to some extent.  Agreed, humans do perceive the same reality in many different ways, and thus only one of those, at best, is the literal truth.  Following from that, it seems logically, and evidentially, that since some people are misperceiving reality then they are also misinterpreting it.  Despite those experiences then not actually being the literal truth, there are many of them that are not fatal nor even threatening to your health.  If someone mistakes the planet Venus for an alien spaceship, a tremor for a poltergeist, a black blob in the woods for Bigfoot, that's usually not life-threatening.

Perhaps in many cases the experience is truth, yet the interpretation of it is subjective. 

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Liquid Gardens
3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Perhaps in many cases the experience is truth, yet the interpretation of it is subjective. 

Sure, but then I'm not sure what it means to say 'the experience is truth'.  We take a road trip to Denver and gobble down some legal shrooms and watch city traffic turn into a hilarious, brightly colored cartoon for a few hours.  Is that experience the truth, even though that school bus really did not have trails of color streaming off the back of it as it was hopping down the road?  I guess yes, that's what we truthfully perceived and truthfully experienced, but then I don't know what a false experience looks like, outside of just lying about it.

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XenoFish
3 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Sure, but then I'm not sure what it means to say 'the experience is truth'.  We take a road trip to Denver and gobble down some legal shrooms and watch city traffic turn into a hilarious, brightly colored cartoon for a few hours.  Is that experience the truth, even though that school bus really did not have trails of color streaming off the back of it as it was hopping down the road?  I guess yes, that's what we truthfully perceived and truthfully experienced, but then I don't know what a false experience looks like, outside of just lying about it.

Isn't this the same thing I just wrote? 

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Aquila King
4 hours ago, joc said:

Wow, you are not a shill for the Global Leftist Media at all....or are you?  I mean, you did...in one sentence...list every adjective of the Narrative!  

And to equate everyone who supports Trump with that narrative is considerably naive, hypocritical in it's own right and shallow as hell.  I hope I have now sufficiently insulted you and given you a reason to actually dislike me.  Nonetheless, feel free to continue with your mindless drivel.  Thank God for the Global Leftist Media telling you what to think...at least you have some thought process going on in there..not a good one, nor a healthy one mind you, but I guess glomming on to a Socialist/Communist Narrative is better than being completely brain dead. :)

1) I never watch any mainstream news outlets. I've said this to you on here multiple times before, so you're really just making this s**t up at this point.

2) Trump HAS insulted basically everyone except conservative white men, whether you agree with it or not. You can claim he didn't mean to or whatever till the cows come home, but fact is he did. Deal with it.

3) I've also told you countless times how I'm not a ****ing Communist, yet you continue to insist that I am regardless. You're just straight-up lying as if this is somehow a petty attempt at a smear.

4) There's little point in saying anything to you if you're just gonna outright ignore what other people tell you and just continue to believe and say whatever the **** you want to regardless. 

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XenoFish

Oh for the love of satan, enough of this political crap in here. Take it to the right sections. Sheesh.:rolleyes:

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Liquid Gardens
2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Isn't this the same thing I just wrote? 

I guess I don't know, might be?  'The experience is truth' can mean a few different things.

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XenoFish
1 minute ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I guess I don't know, might be?  'The experience is truth' can mean a few different things.

I get that. We experience a lot of things that are true to us. As you mentioned there is a difference between an actual experience and a bold face lie. The water gets murky due to the subjective nature of an experience, our faulty memories, and lack of physical evidence (for the most part).

 

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Liquid Gardens
43 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I get that. We experience a lot of things that are true to us. As you mentioned there is a difference between an actual experience and a bold face lie. The water gets murky due to the subjective nature of an experience, our faulty memories, and lack of physical evidence (for the most part).

Agreed and good point. I usually set aside here at least the possibility that people are just lying, although agreed that is obviously relevant.  I don't think I've ever needed to entertain that possibility much with paranormal topics as I haven't encountered one that to me doesn't have issues assuming the person is not outright lying, and I try at least to evaluate these kinds of claims by giving them as much benefit of the doubt as I can as it's more challenging.

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Aquila King
55 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Oh for the love of satan, enough of this political crap in here. Take it to the right sections. Sheesh.:rolleyes:

I think most of us agree that we're all sick of the political crap being here.

Though the fact that you hit like on the political post I responded to but then conplain about politics being here when I argued against it kinda shows a bit of disingenuousness to your words here.

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XenoFish
1 minute ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Agreed and good point. I usually set aside here at least the possibility that people are just lying, although agreed that is obviously relevant.  I don't think I've ever needed to entertain that possibility much with paranormal topics as I haven't encountered one that to me doesn't have issues assuming the person is not outright lying, and I try at least to evaluate these kinds of claims by giving them as much benefit of the doubt as I can as it's more challenging.

I think that's what get's me with some of the paranormal stories. Some of them start out simple, "I saw something", then there are those that are almost novels. Later adding details, etc. I call bunk on those. Most stories are cookie cutter. Late at night, heard a noise, dog following something, stuff like that. I can't dismiss the experience, I can only explain it to the best of my knowledge based on what's been mentioned. 

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Aquila King
3 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I usually set aside here at least the possibility that people are just lying

Some posters here I'm almost certain are just outright lying on a number of things, whereas others I view as being completely genuine. It just depends on the person really.

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XenoFish
Just now, Aquila King said:

I think most of us agree that we're all sick of the political crap being here.

Though the fact that you hit like on the political post I responded to but then conplain about politics being here when I argued against it kinda shows a bit of disingenuousness to your words here.

Then stop posting political stuff. I don't care how much you hate Trump or who the F ever. It's bad enough we bicker over spiritual things. When you add politics into it you're going to get a **** show. Just because I liked something doesn't mean it needs a response. 

Let's try to get this thread sorta back on track for once.

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Mr Walker
11 hours ago, eight bits said:

Speak for yourself. I believe that planes fly, and that the regulated ones usually fly well, because of evidence that supports that view. To be candid, I don't ever worry about dying in my sleep, not only because of evidence that it is unlikely for me in my current state of health, but because that's probably among the better ways to go.

All words have elasticity, and if you want to stretch faith to denote all occasions of trust, even trust based on long term observation of both worthy behavior and also possession of a well-established and stable personality, then good for you. But you will need to find somebody else to discuss it with. It's not an interesting way to use the term, IMO, and I am untrusting enough to suspect an agenda behind it. An agenda of which I want no part.

A nice example of projection, I think. You say you but I bet you mean yourself. Indeed, I can't and don't know whether a god exists, but have not decided on faith, and I live my life quite well without religious faith, thank you.

What evolved is the capacity for certain kinds of thought. What thoughts realize that capacity is contingent. Like opposable thumbs. The thumbs are the product of biological evolution; the phone on which somebody bangs out text messages with those thumbs is something else.

I don't. Quite a few of mine are wrong; if only I knew which ones. But (if I may borrow a line from The Lion in Winter), I may as well ask whether the air is good to breathe. I have to work with the beliefs and convictions I have, including keeping an eye out for identifying and correcting some of the wrong ones.

What I do know is that there are some ways of adopting beliefs and convictions that tend to truthful belief formation, and there are other ways that do not. That's all I was discussing at the place you quoted.

You say you did. Your life would have been easier had you kept that million you say you gave away.

Ease is a value, please don't misunderstand me, but it is not the only value a non-foolish person might embrace.

Apparently? Appearance is in the eye of the beholder. And what's the matter with close? I recall our friend @XenoFishwisely noting, from his experience with machine tools, that the object isn't perfection, but precision.

Prior experience does not guarantee future results, but it usually is evidence.

Ah, so you do understand the comparison of risks and rewards. Now you understand why I might get on an airplane, or for that matter. cross the street.

No we wouldn't. As you just (almost) said, the cost of that policy far exceeds any plausible benefit.

Rather than go through all this i would just say that you see things differently  to me

There is no agenda on my part.

Faith is a psychological coping mechanism. Religious faith is exactly  the same construct as the faith you use to turn on a light.

And yes if you had NO faith, it would require an inspection every time despite the costs. It is the faith /hope /belief that the light will turn on, which allows one to act without that cost 

You is a generic term but I should;d have made that explicit 

i have no religious beliefs or faiths  but i do invest faith deliberately in things like getting on a plane (And you still don't get that past experience is NOT any form of evidence for future potential There are too many unknown variables  Probability plays a part but not certainty) 

My point was precisely this. Without faith (but with the rest of our self aware intelligence warning us of dangers and risks),  we would never get out of bed, let alone cross a street, or drive a car, or go in an aeroplane 

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Mr Walker
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

(I moved this from Xeno's other thread which he's trying to keep on topic)

Your first sentence contradicts the last to some extent.  Agreed, humans do perceive the same reality in many different ways, and thus only one of those, at best, is the literal truth.  Following from that, it seems logically, and evidentially, that since some people are misperceiving reality then they are also misinterpreting it.  Despite those experiences then not actually being the literal truth, there are many of them that are not fatal nor even threatening to your health.  If someone mistakes the planet Venus for an alien spaceship, a tremor for a poltergeist, a black blob in the woods for Bigfoot, that's usually not life-threatening.

No; the first sentence explains the last 

it doesn't matter (ie change reality) how you perceive reality. Because it is physically real, it will kill you if you ignore it or misperceive it 

The literal truth is not what we perceive but what is, and that would exist even when no human existed.  Human  minds do not construct reality except through our hands and technologies altering the physical world   

BUT inside our mind we all build a unique personal view of reality which, in many ways, becomes reality for us This does not make it truth or reality  except to us 

My argument is with people who claim that all unusual experiences are misperceptions hallucinations etc Our minds are better than that. if you can identify a red squirrel in the woods you can identify a ghost or an alien or big foot (IF those things have their own physical reality ) 

It strange how people can accept all the mundane observations of reality they make every minute yet deny the accuracy of a more unusual observation  If you are seeing ghosts etc due to mis perceptions, why aren't you seeing toasters flying around the kitchen or not being able to see your bed or doorway? :) 

Yep, some of our  observations are misperceived, but the huge majority are not.  

There are many danger signs which warn of  the likelihood of misperception; such as tiredness, influence of drugs, mental illness, or simply a strange environment and lack of time to observe correctly 

However BECAUSE mispercetions are often life threatening, our minds have evolved the abilty to observe and perceive extremely accurately. 

Edited by Mr Walker

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