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Jodie.Lynne

I don't believe you

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jmccr8
2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

That's why you're not me. I still have some imagination left. Logic, logic, logic, logic....in this world, on this planet, very little makes actual sense. Especially the species known as humans. Not a single one of those semi-hairless primates are sane. 

Hi Xeno

There is a profit in logic when one looks at those guys and notes that they are weak minded with no common sense that can be milked for every dime they have.:lol:

jmccr8

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jmccr8
29 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

No argument; but it was better than many of the alternatives

Hi Walker

How would you know that if there was no slavery that those cultures would not have exceeded your perception of alternatives, history is written by conquerors and some alternatives may not have been recorded or recognized because they exist outside of their domain and did not want to encourage anything that would upset their system of control?

jmccr8

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Will do
6 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Sounds like a real deal there and how exactly does this make your point relative to human rights?

 

Not read the UB dummy. The hidden comments. Did you read the hidden comments? Probably not I guess.

Here, I'll post them again for you.

The words have to do with slavery and freedom. Especially the freedom everyone in the world will enjoy as one people, once the virus of national sovereignty is eliminated by the establishment of mankind government.

Government of all mankind, by all mankind, and for all mankind.

Check it out.

 

 

  Hide contents

Law, Liberty, and Sovereignty

134:6.1

If one man craves freedom—liberty—he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom. Groups of such liberty-loving mortals cannot live together in peace without becoming subservient to such laws, rules, and regulations as will grant each person the same degree of freedom while at the same time safeguarding an equal degree of freedom for all of his fellow mortals. If one man is to be absolutely free, then another must become an absolute slave. And the relative nature of freedom is true socially, economically, and politically. Freedom is the gift of civilization made possible by the enforcement of LAW.

134:6.2

Religion makes it spiritually possible to realize the brotherhood of men, but it will require mankind government to regulate the social, economic, and political problems associated with such a goal of human happiness and efficiency.

134:6.3

There shall be wars and rumors of wars—nation will rise against nation—just as long as the world’s political sovereignty is divided up and unjustly held by a group of nation-states. England, Scotland, and Wales were always fighting each other until they gave up their respective sovereignties, reposing them in the United Kingdom.

134:6.4

Another world war will teach the so-called sovereign nations to form some sort of federation, thus creating the machinery for preventing small wars, wars between the lesser nations. But global wars will go on until the government of mankind is created. Global sovereignty will prevent global wars—nothing else can.

134:6.5

The forty-eight American free states live together in peace. There are among the citizens of these forty-eight states all of the various nationalities and races that live in the ever-warring nations of Europe. These Americans represent almost all the religions and religious sects and cults of the whole wide world, and yet here in North America they live together in peace. And all this is made possible because these forty-eight states have surrendered their sovereignty and have abandoned all notions of the supposed rights of self-determination.

134:6.6

It is not a question of armaments or disarmament. Neither does the question of conscription or voluntary military service enter into these problems of maintaining world-wide peace. If you take every form of modern mechanical armaments and all types of explosives away from strong nations, they will fight with fists, stones, and clubs as long as they cling to their delusions of the divine right of national sovereignty.

1,491

War is not man’s great and terrible disease; war is a symptom, a result. The real disease is the virus of national sovereignty.

134:6.8

Urantia nations have not possessed real sovereignty; they never have had a sovereignty which could protect them from the ravages and devastations of world wars. In the creation of the global government of mankind, the nations are not giving up sovereignty so much as they are actually creating a real, bona fide, and lasting world sovereignty which will henceforth be fully able to protect them from all war. Local affairs will be handled by local governments; national affairs, by national governments; international affairs will be administered by global government.

134:6.9

World peace cannot be maintained by treaties, diplomacy, foreign policies, alliances, balances of power, or any other type of makeshift juggling with the sovereignties of nationalism. World law must come into being and must be enforced by world government—the sovereignty of all mankind.

134:6.10

The individual will enjoy far more liberty under world government. Today, the citizens of the great powers are taxed, regulated, and controlled almost oppressively, and much of this present interference with individual liberties will vanish when the national governments are willing to trustee their sovereignty as regards international affairs into the hands of global government.

134:6.11

Under global government the national groups will be afforded a real opportunity to realize and enjoy the personal liberties of genuine democracy. The fallacy of self-determination will be ended. With global regulation of money and trade will come the new era of world-wide peace. Soon may a global language evolve, and there will be at least some hope of sometime having a global religion—or religions with a global viewpoint.

134:6.12

Collective security will never afford peace until the collectivity includes all mankind.

134:6.13

The political sovereignty of representative mankind government will bring lasting peace on earth, and the spiritual brotherhood of man will forever insure good will among all men. And there is no other way whereby peace on earth and good will among men can be realized.

 

 

 

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Mr Walker
16 hours ago, eight bits said:

See, that just proves why we need slavery. These people don't know what's good for them, so somebody has to look after their interests. Thank God there have been slave masters throughout history who've stepped up to help their fellow men and women in need.

I am not certain if posters like sherapy and jmcr8 are truly ignorant of the realities of human history or are just choosing to paint me a certain colour for personal reasons.

  I've made it clear  i dont approve of slavery but also that slavery was often the only viable option.  I don't approve of abortion neither but recognise that is often the only viable option for women under current social structures 

While some free people throughout history have sold themselves into slavery to  ensure survival for themselves and their family MOST slaves were taken against their will.

While  conditions for many slaves through history were harsh; for many they were better than trying to  survive as a free person. 

Indentured servants and people in poor houses  were slaves in all but name,  yet they survived, and often indentured servants  used tha t survival to better themselves and establish their family. 

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jmccr8
1 minute ago, Will Due said:

 

Not read the UB dummy. The hidden comments. Did you read the hidden comments? Probably not I guess.

Here, I'll post them again for you.

The words have to do with slavery and freedom. Especially the freedom everyone in the world will enjoy as one people, once the virus of national sovereignty is eliminated by the establishment of mankind government.

Government of all mankind, by all mankind, and for all mankind.

Check it out.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents
  Hide contents

Law, Liberty, and Sovereignty

134:6.1

If one man craves freedom—liberty—he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom. Groups of such liberty-loving mortals cannot live together in peace without becoming subservient to such laws, rules, and regulations as will grant each person the same degree of freedom while at the same time safeguarding an equal degree of freedom for all of his fellow mortals. If one man is to be absolutely free, then another must become an absolute slave. And the relative nature of freedom is true socially, economically, and politically. Freedom is the gift of civilization made possible by the enforcement of LAW.

134:6.2

Religion makes it spiritually possible to realize the brotherhood of men, but it will require mankind government to regulate the social, economic, and political problems associated with such a goal of human happiness and efficiency.

134:6.3

There shall be wars and rumors of wars—nation will rise against nation—just as long as the world’s political sovereignty is divided up and unjustly held by a group of nation-states. England, Scotland, and Wales were always fighting each other until they gave up their respective sovereignties, reposing them in the United Kingdom.

134:6.4

Another world war will teach the so-called sovereign nations to form some sort of federation, thus creating the machinery for preventing small wars, wars between the lesser nations. But global wars will go on until the government of mankind is created. Global sovereignty will prevent global wars—nothing else can.

134:6.5

The forty-eight American free states live together in peace. There are among the citizens of these forty-eight states all of the various nationalities and races that live in the ever-warring nations of Europe. These Americans represent almost all the religions and religious sects and cults of the whole wide world, and yet here in North America they live together in peace. And all this is made possible because these forty-eight states have surrendered their sovereignty and have abandoned all notions of the supposed rights of self-determination.

134:6.6

It is not a question of armaments or disarmament. Neither does the question of conscription or voluntary military service enter into these problems of maintaining world-wide peace. If you take every form of modern mechanical armaments and all types of explosives away from strong nations, they will fight with fists, stones, and clubs as long as they cling to their delusions of the divine right of national sovereignty.

1,491

War is not man’s great and terrible disease; war is a symptom, a result. The real disease is the virus of national sovereignty.

134:6.8

Urantia nations have not possessed real sovereignty; they never have had a sovereignty which could protect them from the ravages and devastations of world wars. In the creation of the global government of mankind, the nations are not giving up sovereignty so much as they are actually creating a real, bona fide, and lasting world sovereignty which will henceforth be fully able to protect them from all war. Local affairs will be handled by local governments; national affairs, by national governments; international affairs will be administered by global government.

134:6.9

World peace cannot be maintained by treaties, diplomacy, foreign policies, alliances, balances of power, or any other type of makeshift juggling with the sovereignties of nationalism. World law must come into being and must be enforced by world government—the sovereignty of all mankind.

134:6.10

The individual will enjoy far more liberty under world government. Today, the citizens of the great powers are taxed, regulated, and controlled almost oppressively, and much of this present interference with individual liberties will vanish when the national governments are willing to trustee their sovereignty as regards international affairs into the hands of global government.

134:6.11

Under global government the national groups will be afforded a real opportunity to realize and enjoy the personal liberties of genuine democracy. The fallacy of self-determination will be ended. With global regulation of money and trade will come the new era of world-wide peace. Soon may a global language evolve, and there will be at least some hope of sometime having a global religion—or religions with a global viewpoint.

134:6.12

Collective security will never afford peace until the collectivity includes all mankind.

134:6.13

The political sovereignty of representative mankind government will bring lasting peace on earth, and the spiritual brotherhood of man will forever insure good will among all men. And there is no other way whereby peace on earth and good will among men can be realized.

 

 

 

Hi Will 

I did read it but I cannot discount the rest of the book says to make a few sentences valid, it is a part of a whole book.

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
16 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Bandwagon apologist. 

So you help by praising and espousing horrendous atrocities towards humanity, justifying and excusing them?

 

 

Romantic idealist, versus practical  realist.

What are you giving up to change the plight of young people kept  as slaves in plantation industries today?

What are you doing to stop the sex trade in slaves?  

What are you doing to stop animal cruelty around the world? 

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Mr Walker
16 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Indeed. 

In addition, it is not technically slavery if you are being paid !

Can be, if you are prevented from ceasing work or leaving an area.

Slaves were often "paid" like any worker of the time;  in goods, food and shelter.  Inadequately of course but not much worse than other servants 

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Mr Walker
16 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

But even that , as horrendous as it is, is not fully being owned by another human being with no hope for it ever ending for you or your children as is the case in the true definition of slavery.

not entirely true.

  Historically  many slaves were  freed after a fixed period, and in some states  this was compelled by law.   Many were not 'fully owned", but remained citizens of the state  Often, children of slaves were born as free citizens

The problem is that most  modern people only know about transatlantic slavery, and especially American slavery, which was indeed very harsh and often brutal. In part this occurred because the slaves were black  and thus see by most as subhuman, often no more than animals.

In ealry societies the slaves were from  other "civilized" peoples, or the same country, and so were often still seen and treated as people  

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Will do
Just now, jmccr8 said:

Hi Will 

I did read it but I cannot discount the rest of the book says to make a few sentences valid, it is a part of a whole book.

jmccr8

 

Ok j, I gottcha. But don't discount what shouldn't be discounted. But I understand where you're coming from. 

 

Pretty interesting idea though right?

A world free from war (and most other disparities) because of the fairness between countries, between peoples, that will be realized with the establishment of the inevitable government for all mankind.

Doesn't it feel like that's what we're all going through in the world right now?

It does to me.

 

 

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jmccr8
2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Ok j, I gottcha. But don't discount what shouldn't be discounted. But I understand where you're coming from. 

 

Pretty interesting idea though right?

A world free from war (and most other disparities) because of the fairness between countries, between peoples, that will be realized with the establishment of the inevitable government for all mankind.

Doesn't it feel like that's what we're all going through in the world right now?

It does to me.

 

 

Hi Will

Yes, it is a nice thought but the reality is that we live in a world of conflict and the only control/influence that I can have is to live my life as a fair man no matter what the world does.

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
14 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Not the same thing, Will. Being in debt is a choice. 

roflmao 

Maybe in the last 50 plus a little  years, in the west.  Before that many people simply couldn't survive. You either went into debt or died  Once our abilty to live from the land was taken away as we moved into cities  we became wage slaves and had to work to stay alive.  If your income didn't meet your basic needs, you went into debt  and, until about 100 years ago, were placed in a poor house where you had to stay.  You were given basic shelter and food, in return for hard work and daily lessons in moral living.  

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Mr Walker
14 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

 

If one man craves freedom—liberty—he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom. Groups of such liberty-loving mortals cannot live together in peace without becoming subservient to such laws, rules, and regulations as will grant each person the same degree of freedom while at the same time safeguarding an equal degree of freedom for all of his fellows. If one man is to be absolutely free, then another must become an absolute slave. And the relative nature of freedom is true socially, economically, and politically. Freedom is the gift of civilization made possible by the enforcement of LAW.

 

Link

 

 

I appreciate this is probably from  the urantia papers, but Edmund Burke, the great philosopher, said something almost identical. 

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Mr Walker
14 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

But you don't know this, you are guessing.  It was not necessary to have slaves in order for 'society' to survive.  It may have been necessary in order for society to progress as quickly and in the way it did, duh, and it may have given certain societies advantages, but that doesn't make it right, more acceptable, or necessary.

As far as the line about how slavery isn't homogeneous and slavery back then wasn't the same as slavery of Africans in America, I'd note that even the Bible has instruction on the Christian way to beat your slaves.  That's a sufficient amount of wrong for me.

Not guessing. it is known economic, political and social fact from history  Once you  understand  the economic modelling for a society, and the resource production and distribution, plus demographics, you can establish this accurately.  

Of course attitudes values and moralities of the time also influenced it.

But so did things like military  security at home and abroad    

eg you narrowly defeat a powerful enemy 

What do you do next? 

Let them redevelop their power? 

Use slavery to ensure they do not rise again as a nation state to seek revenge. 

Kill  off all the males, and keep the women to become a part of your own nation, by marrying them and making them, not slaves, but citizens.

All of these were common practices in the ancient world   

Once slavery is inevitable, the next best thing is to regulate and control it to minimise harm.

Hebrews were the first people of the west to establish laws on the treatment of slaves and their right to freedom after time  Not surprisingly then, Hebrew law (with or without the influence of religion) had instructions on how to treat slaves (for the protection of the slaves  ) Other societies  gave no legal protection until roman times (from memory)  

 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker
14 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Who exactly the rich or the poor, oh I am too important to get calluses on my hands and get them dirty?:lol:

I would like to see the documentation that supports this as from what I have read is that thousands have died from being in the state of slavery.:unsure:

jmccr8

Read some history or even some historical novels

Only the VERY rich and powerful had some protection from  hard times 

Every one else worked hard long hours and damaged their bodies ( as anthropological studies prove)  so that the y were in constsnt pain 

Despite hard work, life was short  and brutal and without any guarantee. There  were few surpluses or reserves of food  Most children died before puberty and most women died in childbirth or form complications after wards  And all this is before you add in wars and plagues 

Millions more free peole died from starvation and cold than did slaves. 

Have you  got the fainest idea what life was like for the peasants and serfs through out europe  in the last 2000 years?   Even the civilisations of china India and japan were not much better, although a few natural food bowls along major rivers  did a little better 

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I can understand when people say that times were different back then. But what I cannot fathom is how people can say things like "no, no! slavery was different!" Notice that these apologists don't try to say that murder was "different', or that theft was 'different', just slavery.

If cold blooded murder was wrong then, and is now;

If theft was wrong then, and is now;

If rape was wrong then, and is now;

Then how come slavery is different?

of course the defintion of murder and also its punishments alter all the time

Until last century a murder done in the heat of passion was often not punished or was given a lower sentence 

Until the last year or so  a person could argue a defence of murder in Australia   if they were approached by a gay person for sex and were so afraid or disturbed that they struck out and killed the other person I can still legally kill a person who comes into my home and threatens me, if i am in genuine fear of my life or that of a loved one 

In the  American west killing was clearly socially defined into acceptable  and non acceptable.

 if you  were insulted by  and killed another armed man  this was acceptable (you would not even be arrested or charged)  if you  killed without provocation, in the committal of a crime,  or a an unarmed person or a woman or child it was usually murder  

LAstly killing unborn humans  was once murder, now it is not 

And of course rape was not legally or morally thought of as wrong inside a marriage until the 1960s (because it was impossible, given that ongoing consent was legally given at marriage and could not be withdrawn bilaterally making all "normal " sex in a marriage, legal.   Today it is seen as very wrong.  And correctly so  

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jmccr8
3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Read some history or even some historical novels

Hi Walker

Historical novels have a fair bit of fabrication involved like the dialogue between characters and circumstances because they are trying to appeal to a large enough reader base for profit, not everyone buys books if they are not interesting and stimulate the imagination.

7 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Only the VERY rich and powerful had some protection from  hard times 

Yes and they got their wealth by using people, they didn't do it for the health or wealth of the masses.

8 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Every one else worked hard long hours and damaged their bodies ( as anthropological studies prove)  so that the y were in constsnt pain 

Who, everyone that wasn't wealthy?

10 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Despite hard work, life was short  and brutal and without any guarantee. There  were few surpluses or reserves of food  Most children died before puberty and most women died in childbirth or form complications after wards  And all this is before you add in wars and plagues 

 There are users and the used and users don't care about how they use people or if it is moral.

11 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Millions more free peole died from starvation and cold than did slaves.

Outside of everyone dies could you be a little more specific like who caused those conditions to exist in the first place.

13 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Have you  got the fainest idea what life was like for the peasants and serfs through out europe  in the last 2000 years?   Even the civilisations of china India and japan were not much better, although a few natural food bowls along major rivers  did a little better 

You know for tens of thousands of years before the development of large cultural urban centers people worked together in groups and were successful in populating most of the globe. Most of the conditions that you are using as examples are greed created and not the norm.

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

How would you know that if there was no slavery that those cultures would not have exceeded your perception of alternatives, history is written by conquerors and some alternatives may not have been recorded or recognized because they exist outside of their domain and did not want to encourage anything that would upset their system of control?

jmccr8

Well, that is the  advantage of having studied so many humanities subjects for so long :)  eg economics is economics.

You cant argue with it. it determines human society, hence the term socio -economics

Slavery, women's rights, the rights of children and animals,  even the future of our planet and its environment are all ultimately  determined  by economics, NOT social values and moralities.

eg we just installed solar batteries for our home  at a cost of  16000 dollars less a govt rebate of 6000 dollars 

We will now use no fossil fuels only solar power from our solar panels BUT we could only do this as it becam economocally viable and sensible (Today 31% of south Australians have solar panels but only a few thousands have batteries)  

I would love to buy an electric car, which we could charge from  the batteries BUT they cost at least 50000 dollars here, making it economically impossible for us.   As the y become economic Australia  will gradually transition to all electric vehicles except for heavy haulage units  like tractors and trucks  

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jmccr8
28 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

You cant argue with it.

Hi Walker

I am not arguing, I am discussing which is why I am not using cap locks.:lol:

28 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

it determines human society, hence the term socio -economics

Economics is about creating conditions where people either want to give their money away or are forced to. Monetary systems create power structures through the manipulation of markets for the profit of the few. Prior to money people worked together as a unit to ensure the health and benefit of the whole group.

Many many years ago my dad told me that if you gave 10 men a million dollars each in one community and came back 10 yrs later one guy would have 10 million and 9 guys working for him.

jmccr8

Edited by jmccr8
forgot a word

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jmccr8
29 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Slavery, women's rights, the rights of children and animals,  even the future of our planet and its environment are all ultimately  determined  by economics, NOT social values and moralities.

Hi Walker

It is a created social circumstance for the generation of profit and control other systems could be of even more benefit if they were allowed to exist.

Most social environments are created by men and not a natural occurrence of the physical world and rights are allowed if they can be controlled by people who want that authority

35 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

eg we just installed solar batteries for our home  at a cost of  16000 dollars less a govt rebate of 6000 dollars 

We will now use no fossil fuels only solar power from our solar panels BUT we could only do this as it becam economocally viable and sensible (Today 31% of south Australians have solar panels but only a few thousands have batteries)  

I would love to buy an electric car, which we could charge from  the batteries BUT they cost at least 50000 dollars here, making it economically impossible for us.   As the y become economic Australia  will gradually transition to all electric vehicles except for heavy haulage units  like tractors and trucks 

That's nice and good for you, why don't you build your own electric car, you have built bombs, roads and an extensive list of achievements what seems to be the problem?:huh:

jmccr8

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Sherapy
2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

No argument; but it was better than many of the alternatives at the time and often not much worse than being a free, poor, person. 

is slavery worse than starving or freezing slowly to death with your whole family, or having yourself and your whole family executed after defeat in war . Which gives hope for the future? 

The debate  is about when, if ever, slavery is permissible (not morally good, but practically necessary)  The answer is that it is permissible when ending it would do greater harm to more people than maintaining it. 

You have not brought a convincing argument for the benefits of slavery. 

 

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Habitat
6 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

You have not brought a convincing argument for the benefits of slavery. 

 

How about you tell us about something that is terribly unjust in today's world, right now, that future generations will deplore ? This business of being a wiseacre looking back down the time tunnel really has little use. 

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Sherapy
2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

That is not praise. It is recognition that slavery was often the economic necessity which allowed early cultures to survive, but ALSO enabled them to keep alive ( and not kill) enemies or others whom the y could not let go free but did not have the resources to keep alive.  Thus slavery was all often all that enabled the survival, of not just the slaves, but the free people 

 

As i said, I think you have very little understanding of the realities of human existence and history and thin you can impose modern values onto totally different circumstances 

it s easy to say you would never eat your best friend, until he/she is lying dead on a frozen mountain top and you are starving to death.  

All the statements  in the quote above are factually true 

So true, indeed, that in such societies free men/citizens, sold themselves  (and sometimes their sons)  into slavery, to ensure that  they and their families could survive. 

This is nonsense basically, your opinion on slavery and it is clear you were in favor of it.

We did impose higher standards for the treatment of others and no longer allow for slavery. So yes, we can and did impose morality and ended slavery.

 

 

You are preaching to the choir.

Moving on....

 

 

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Mr Walker
37 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

I am not arguing, I am discussing which is why I am not using cap locks.:lol:

Economics is about creating conditions where people either want to give their money away or are forced to. Monetary systems create power structures through the manipulation of markets for the profit of the few. Prior to money people worked together as a unit to ensure the health and benefit of the whole group.

Many many years ago my dad told me that if you gave 10 men a million dollars each in one community and came back 10 yrs later one guy would have 10 million and 9 guys working for him.

jmccr8

Economics is  the study of ANY system of organised production, use and distribution of resources, both human and other 

It does not have an inherent purpose, but evolves around resources, supply and demand, labour costs and technologies, among many factors.

The nature of the economic system determines the structure of the society around it, but the nature of the society will also impact on the form and function of the economic system  

Thus, in communal systems, no one owns land or tools, there is no personal wealth   and no need for inheritance. 

This allows for different social/family structures, to a society where wealth accumulates, and marriage and legitimacy become important to determine ownership and transition of personal (family )  wealth

Where trades are labour intensive, a system of apprenticeship determines the form of education of a child, but where machines require other skills, like reading, writing, mathematics and book keeping etc., then society begins to organise free and compulsory education for young people.

Where girls do not work in organised labour and have no intrinsic economic value,  they are not required to be educated but, again, as machines and technology replace physical skills, girls are required to be educated in a similar way to boys So economics influences EVERY part of human society from  sex and marriage to education    

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Farmer77
5 minutes ago, Habitat said:

How about you tell us about something that is terribly unjust in today's world, right now, that future generations will deplore ?

The United States healthcare system 

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Mr Walker
16 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

You have not brought a convincing argument for the benefits of slavery. 

 

That is your subjective opinion. 

Would you rather  starve/freeze to death, be killed, or become a slave with the possibility of future freedom, and the survival of yourself, and your family.? 

Would you rather be a black, modern day  Somalian/Ethiopian,  or a black, modern day, American ? 

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