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Jodie.Lynne

I don't believe you

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Habitat
2 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

The United States healthcare system 

I'm not an American, but I'm certainly aware of what you are talking about, and yes, it just looks like a giant money grab.

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Hammerclaw
23 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

You have not brought a convincing argument for the benefits of slavery. 

 

The only benefit of slavery for the enslaved, is that it beats being slaughtered or tortured to death. The true benefits are enjoyed by the enslavers. The Romans didn't enslave by race and slaves mingled with plebes and citizens and were indistinguishable. It was once proposed that slaves should dress differently, but that idea was discarded out of fear the slaves, seeing how numerous they were, would band together and revolt. Rome, as were many ancient societies, was a slave-based economy; without the slaves the economy would collapse. Slavery was/is and ancient institution and one feeble step above complete savagery. 

Edited by Hammerclaw
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jmccr8
5 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Economics is  the study of ANY system of organised production, use and distribution of resources, both human and other 

It does not have an inherent purpose, but evolves around resources, supply and demand, labour costs and technologies, among many factors.

The nature of the economic system determines the structure of the society around it, but the nature of the society will also impact on the form and function of the economic system  

Thus, in communal systems, no one owns land or tools, there is no personal wealth   and no need for inheritance. 

This allows for different social/family structures, to a society where wealth accumulates, and marriage and legitimacy become important to determine ownership and transition of personal (family )  wealth

Where trades are labour intensive, a system of apprenticeship determines the form of education of a child, but where machines require other skills, like reading, writing, mathematics and book keeping etc., then society begins to organise free and compulsory education for young people.

Where girls do not work in organised labour and have no intrinsic economic value,  they are not required to be educated but, again, as machines and technology replace physical skills, girls are required to be educated in a similar way to boys So economics influences EVERY part of human society from  sex and marriage to education    

Hi Walker

I don't believe you, Thread correction.:lol:

jmccr8

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Sherapy
4 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

The only benefit of slavery for the enslaved, is that it beats being slaughtered or tortured to death. The true benefits are enjoyed by the enslavers. The Romans didn't enslave by race and slaves mingled with plebes and citizens and were indistinguishable. It was once proposed that slaves should dress differently, but that idea was discarded out of fear the slaves, seeing how numerous they were, would band together and revolt. Rome, as were many ancient societies, were slave-based economies; without the slaves the economy would collapse. Slavery was/is and ancient institution and one feeble step above complete savagery. 

I think slavery was a form of torture and a slow death. As you said it was the practice of savagery. 

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy
1 minute ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

I don't believe you, Thread correction.:lol:

jmccr8

Me too,

 

 

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jmccr8
6 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

So economics influences EVERY part of human society from  sex and marriage to education    

Hi Walker

Yes because everyone is a consumer and that is what the system is based on profit and debt. If there is no debt there is no profit. Co-ops work because it is not about the profit of an individual but the advancement of the members.

jmccr8

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Hammerclaw
Just now, Sherapy said:

I think slavery is a form of torture and a slow death. As you said it was the practice of savagery. 

No, savagery is to slay your enemies and hear the lamentations of their women. A step above savagery is to suffer them to live and put them to work, for their master's benefit, not theirs. There is no justification for it in the modern world, yet there are places in the world where it still persists. Westerners didn't invent slavery, but they did put an end to it to the extent of their reach.

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Historical novels have a fair bit of fabrication involved like the dialogue between characters and circumstances because they are trying to appeal to a large enough reader base for profit, not everyone buys books if they are not interesting and stimulate the imagination.

Yes and they got their wealth by using people, they didn't do it for the health or wealth of the masses.

Who, everyone that wasn't wealthy?

 There are users and the used and users don't care about how they use people or if it is moral.

Outside of everyone dies could you be a little more specific like who caused those conditions to exist in the first place.

You know for tens of thousands of years before the development of large cultural urban centers people worked together in groups and were successful in populating most of the globe. Most of the conditions that you are using as examples are greed created and not the norm.

jmccr8

I think you are tending to build in moral values or ideas/beliefs around an economic argument.

eg while a capitalist risks his capital, a worker gains paid employment and all the things money buys .

It is really a partnership of different types of resources.

The fairness of it is created by the relative power of either  side Sometimes bosses are too powerful. Sometimes unions are.   In a good system the power is ((close to)  even  

nature and a lack of human science and technology caused those deaths   Same thing happens in all the animal kingdom but humans  are able to stuff things up even worse.

lol  It is an interesting question 

would you rather  live as  

 A neandertal /  cromagnon 

 An Ancient Egyptian  Roman or Greek 

A native american  Australian or African  

A person from  the middle ages in Europe or china 

Someone from Europe in   the 16th to 19th centuries 

 Someone in the present day

 Someone in The future 

The answer depends, of course, on your own youth and vitality, your own needs and values, your own skill set. etc 

 

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Sherapy
1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

No, savagery is to slay your enemies and hear the lamentations of their women. A step above savagery is to suffer them to live and put them to work, for their master's benefit, not theirs. There is no justification for it in the modern world, yet there are places in the world where it still persists. Westerners didn't invent slavery, but they did put an end to it to the extent of their reach.

There are things we have done as humans that we look back on and say never again, it saddens me we have to say this, but the reality is poor choices were made by greedy people that caused a lot of harm. There are things that should never be repeated and slavery is one of those things, my efforts are in that direction. 

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Mr Walker
19 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

This is nonsense basically, your opinion on slavery and it is clear you were in favor of it.

We did impose higher standards for the treatment of others and no longer allow for slavery. So yes, we can and did impose morality and ended slavery.

 

 

You are preaching to the choir.

Moving on....

 

 

Which is it? 

preaching to the choir

or nonsense?

 

You of course did NOTHING to end slavery and are doing nothing to end modern slavery which has not ended but is more widespread and numerous that any time in human history. 

Contemporary slavery, also known as modern slavery or neo-slavery, refers to institutional slavery that continues to exist in present day society. Estimates of the number of slaves today range from around 21 million[1] to 70 million, depending on method used to estimate and the definition of slavery being used.[2][3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_21st_century

 

 

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Mr Walker
16 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

I don't believe you, Thread correction.:lol:

jmccr8

Again you then need to do some reading and study.

it is a matter of historical record. 

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Habitat
3 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

There are things we have done as humans that we look back on and say never again, it saddens me we have to say this, but the reality is poor choices were made by greedy people that caused a lot of harm. There are things that should never be repeated and slavery is one of those things, my efforts are in that direction. 

Yesterday's news, tell us something that is horribly wrong today, and will be seen as such in time, but not so much at the present time.

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Hammerclaw
1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

There are things we have done as humans that we look back on and say never again, it saddens me we have to say this, but the reality is poor choices were made by greedy people that caused a lot of harm. There are things that should never be repeated and slavery is one of those things, my efforts are in that direction. 

Civilization and it's institutions evolve and change over time. When we were children, we did foolish things and progress has not been even or without reversals. Tens of millions perished in the twentieth century because of the savage that still lurks under the surface and in every human. We're not as morally superior as we would like to think. Even Obama slew his thousands and he was a gentle man.

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jmccr8
Just now, Mr Walker said:

I think you are tending to build in moral values or ideas/beliefs around an economic argument.

eg while a capitalist risks his capital, a worker gains paid employment and all the things money buys

Hi Walker

Imposed poverty is a moral condition, people that desire control uses monetary means to gain power, you are using obscene wealth accumulation as a moral value in favor of exploiting people. And in the past people would go and help each other barn building and housing for the benefit of the whole. You are rejecting 10s of thousands of years of co-operative community works that had nothing to do with money and we advanced in developing tools to meet demand prior to monetary systems. 

8 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

nature and a lack of human science and technology caused those deaths 

During certain times in history, taxes caused plenty of deaths why do you think the French revolution happened. They have no bread let them eat cake.:lol:

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
15 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I think slavery was a form of torture and a slow death. As you said it was the practice of savagery. 

If you are genuine i think it is because, first you are American, with a unique american view of slavery,  and second (and this may be connected to the  first problem)  you are not well  educated in history particularly the history of slavery for several millennia. 

In many societies a slave was indistinguishable from  a freed servant  the work was the same, the conditions were the same, and neither had much personal freedom or rights.

  it often depended on the category of a slave eg taken in war, or sold as a debt bondage, originally a citizen, or not, etc.   

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Habitat

What about serfdom ? a kind of slavery ?

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jmccr8
12 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

lol  It is an interesting question 

would you rather  live as  

 A neandertal /  cromagnon 

 An Ancient Egyptian  Roman or Greek 

A native american  Australian or African  

A person from  the middle ages in Europe or china 

Someone from Europe in   the 16th to 19th centuries 

 Someone in the present day

 Someone in The future 

The answer depends, of course, on your own youth and vitality, your own needs and values, your own skill set. etc 

Hi Walker

The reality is that I am adept enough to exist under a wide range of circumstances even with my limited education because I grew up in a have not environment and spent the time to learn how to do the things that needed to be done. Actually during the 40s to 80s people from my province were sought after in more developed provinces because we relied on ourselves and many were self-educated and valued as a resource as potential employees.

jmccr8

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jmccr8
13 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Again you then need to do some reading and study.

it is a matter of historical record. 

Hi Walker

Are you sure that it is not a matter of personal bias on your part?

jmccr8

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Habitat

Debtor's prisons existed in England, in Dicken's times, and no doubt elsewhere, it always puzzled me how you could do anything about repaying a debt while jailed, but a further example of how the past was a foreign country.

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jmccr8
1 minute ago, Habitat said:

Debtor's prisons existed in England, in Dicken's times, and no doubt elsewhere, it always puzzled me how you could do anything about repaying a debt while jailed, but a further example of how the past was a foreign country.

Hi Habitat

Justice is an industry and people get paid to deal with offenders, Your country and mine were built out of people that were in debt or persecuted and willing to go because they were used to living in harsh conditions and had a chance to get away from an overbearing system which they ultimately recreated as these countries developed and prospered for the rich folks back home.:lol:

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
4 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Imposed poverty is a moral condition, people that desire control uses monetary means to gain power, you are using obscene wealth accumulation as a moral value in favor of exploiting people. And in the past people would go and help each other barn building and housing for the benefit of the whole. You are rejecting 10s of thousands of years of co-operative community works that had nothing to do with money and we advanced in developing tools to meet demand prior to monetary systems. 

During certain times in history, taxes caused plenty of deaths why do you think the French revolution happened. They have no bread let them eat cake.:lol:

jmccr8

Sorry but you are speaking a different language to me 

i think you were raised  differently  We were poor but always knew we could rais ourlseves to become either rich or powerful through education and purpose.  Our family includes multi millionaires doctors psychiatrists nuclear scientists and many trades people   earning big money , as well as welfare recipients dole bludgers and single mothers :)   Thus we have no anger or envy of the rich and powerful because, if we desired, we could become them as well  and the y contribute to a society structured SO that we can advance ourlseves 

On the other hand huge capital is now required  for huge capital  investments needed for modern technologies and development.

My super invests in many such shares and thus companies to make me a good profit.   As the cost of developments grow, so shares and companies and capital are even more important to raise that capital  

i guess i am saying i do not see a society divided by class or wealth or one divided into the  rich and poor or exploiters   and exploited.  In places like Australia and america we can become anything we want through our own efforts and energies.

My wife and i live on an income of around 50000 dollars (I just got the age  pension of 17000 dollars a year, bumping it up from 35000  ) but if i had had the priorities of others in my family, and organised my life in the same way, to accumulate wealth,  i could be earning  five times that each year, through investments, wealth generation,  or businesses  etc.  and have assets of many millions of dollars as the y all do Not bad for a family which grew up in second hand clothes, living in my grandmother's house, and being very careful with money to survive.    

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Mr Walker
18 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

The reality is that I am adept enough to exist under a wide range of circumstances even with my limited education because I grew up in a have not environment and spent the time to learn how to do the things that needed to be done. Actually during the 40s to 80s people from my province were sought after in more developed provinces because we relied on ourselves and many were self-educated and valued as a resource as potential employees.

jmccr8

just as i suggested :) 

 

The answer depends, of course, on your own youth and vitality, your own needs and values, your own skill set. etc 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker
13 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Are you sure that it is not a matter of personal bias on your part?

jmccr8

yep

It is true that we all bring subjective perceptions based on our own values and experiences.   But yes, I've had to deal with this academically for half a century, Someone would have told me if i was objectively incorrect. These are not really even my original thoughts/ beliefs/ ideas/understandings , but those of other experts in different fields  

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Mr Walker
26 minutes ago, Habitat said:

What about serfdom ? a kind of slavery ?

http://www.vlib.us/medieval/lectures/serfdom.html

Interesting lecture on this subject.

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jmccr8
1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

i think you were raised  differently

Hi Walker

It's been a couple of years of interaction with each other and I have made it quite clear that I grew up differently than you from the beginning, did the light just come on now?:lol:

4 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

We were poor but always knew we could rais ourlseves to become either rich or powerful through education and purpose.  Our family includes multi millionaires doctors psychiatrists nuclear scientists and many trades people   earning big money , as well as welfare recipients dole bludgers and single mothers :)   Thus we have no anger or envy of the rich and powerful because, if we desired, we could become them as well  and the y contribute to a society structured SO that we can advance ourlseves 

My mom's dad disowned my mom for marrying my dad because he was a farmer and Irish until he met me. When I was in my early 20s I had developed a business plan and went to see a wealthy successful businessman to see if he would help mentor me in some aspects. He told me that my dad was a nobody and I was a nobody and should learn to accept that.

I have never desired great wealth in a monetary sense, I just like to build things and have enjoyed my success and am quite comfortable.A research marketing company contacted me once and asked for me to do a survey so I said yes and they sent me the form which I filled out and returned to them. A couple of weeks later they phoned me and asked how old I was and told me that I was a social anomaly because I did everything myself and did not depend on others to achieve my ends.:lol:

You may not understand the environment that I grew up in and I can accept that but it does not mean that you should dismiss the thing that you do not understand and should appreciate the resolve that I have to do the things I do and have done.

jmccr8

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