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Jodie.Lynne

I don't believe you

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jmccr8
15 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

yep

It is true that we all bring subjective perceptions based on our own values and experiences.   But yes, I've had to deal with this academically for half a century, Someone would have told me if i was objectively incorrect. These are not really even my original thoughts/ beliefs/ ideas/understandings , but those of other experts in different fields  

Hi Walker

Just wondering if those that taught you academically were still alive and reading your posts here would believe if you were being objectively correct.:lol:

 Well, we have been having a fun night of discussion but I have to go to work in the morning so it's time for that last cuppa coffee and a smoke. Have a good night sleep tight and see you after work tomorrow.:D

jmccr8

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eight bits
3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I am not certain if posters like sherapy and jmcr8 are truly ignorant of the realities of human history or are just choosing to paint me a certain colour for personal reasons.

Good that you aren't certain of it, since your analysis is visibly false. You seem to glimpse the truth, though. You propose:

3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

slavery was often the only viable option.

That's a fact claim, and the sort of thing that a person needn't be ignorant nor willful to dispute.

As to indentured servitude, yes it has some of the attributes of slavery. Slavery has all of the attributes of slavery. Many would think that that makes slavery worse than indentured servitude. That's hardly a singing commercial for indentured servitude, and slavery's resemblance to indentured servitude does nothing to rehabilitate slavery.

I would think that we could reach some consensus that the less like slavery a labor system was, the better that usually turns out for the laborers.

Another poster mentioned "virtue signalling" in posting such a view. Well, I suppose not having one's head up one's butt is a signal of some sort.

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Habitat
24 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Another poster mentioned "virtue signalling" in posting such a view.

Which is exactly what it is, pumping your tyres up by making yourselves look like superior moral beings as compared to you-know-who. How about telling us something interesting, like predicting what is seen as acceptable in society today, that won't be in future times. This is just being wise after the event.

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eight bits
24 minutes ago, Habitat said:

This is just being wise after the event.

That's the risk we run when we discuss history. Lucky thing that you and another poster have managed to avoid it.

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Habitat
8 minutes ago, eight bits said:

That's the risk we run when we discuss history. Lucky thing that you and another poster have managed to avoid it.

I see, you can't think of any major wrongs that need righting, that exist today, but will be frowned upon in the future. I suppose that sort of excuses those that were similarly blind to the evils of slavery.

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, eight bits said:

Good that you aren't certain of it, since your analysis is visibly false. You seem to glimpse the truth, though. You propose:

That's a fact claim, and the sort of thing that a person needn't be ignorant nor willful to dispute.

As to indentured servitude, yes it has some of the attributes of slavery. Slavery has all of the attributes of slavery. Many would think that that makes slavery worse than indentured servitude. That's hardly a singing commercial for indentured servitude, and slavery's resemblance to indentured servitude does nothing to rehabilitate slavery.

I would think that we could reach some consensus that the less like slavery a labor system was, the better that usually turns out for the laborers.

Another poster mentioned "virtue signalling" in posting such a view. Well, I suppose not having one's head up one's butt is a signal of some sort.

Its hard to judge the level of education /general knowledge OR the nature of people on line.  I don't understand the way Sherapy totally misrepresents many things i post.

It is either from an ignorance of the facts OR, less charitably, deliberate ad  hominem commentary. She rarely challenges factual statements, just attacks  me for making them.  eg  "slavery is always evil"

  Well no it is not. NOTHING is always evil  Now i appreciate this can debated on philosophical grounds,  but that is not her approach.  It is her way, or the highway, on almost everything 

I see jmcr8s comments as genuine and coming from  very little reading of history but a genuine empathy for people 

Yes it is a fact claim that slavery was sometimes the only VIABLE option, given the socio economic, political, military, and technological realities of specific times and places.

   I am sure you understand the meaning of viable and how it narrows the claim Some societies could have stopped slavery but might have collapsed, been defeated militarily, or  created great hardships for ALL people in the society 

  it is a fact claim which can be debated using facts and figures (and can be found in may places online ) and i am happy to debate either side of the claim and the arguments for and against.  

Up to a point your  comment about being better off to be free than enslaved  is true, but if a society collapses when slavery is removed, then the worst hit people will be the  ex slaves, although  everyone will suffer

A slave is not better off if freed, but then starves to death.  (Unless you take the slogan, " Give me liberty or give me death"  literally )

Indeed while the ending of slavery in America was an overall good thing,  many ex slaves conditions worsened based on objective criteria.

 It seems that the preferences of the ex-slaves and those of the planters differed widely and that slavery failed to educate the slaves for the market economy after slavery. The choices that the freedmen made resulted in more personal freedom, but at the same time in a decline in their standard of living, their life expectancy, and their educational progress. 

 

https://www.history.ac.uk/ihr/Focus/Slavery/articles/emmer.html

 

 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker
2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Just wondering if those that taught you academically were still alive and reading your posts here would believe if you were being objectively correct.:lol:

 Well, we have been having a fun night of discussion but I have to go to work in the morning so it's time for that last cuppa coffee and a smoke. Have a good night sleep tight and see you after work tomorrow.:D

jmccr8

Some still are.

Strangely more of my uni professors than my high school teachers . Might say something about he comparative stresses of either job.  Don Hopgood and dean Jaensch (politics) are still allve  Graeme hugo (geography died recently.  Not sure about others  A couple of my high school teachers are still alive  terry krieg  for example, but many have died  Those names are quite googleable and they are all interesting characters 

 

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Golden Duck
16 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I see jmcr8s comments as genuine and coming from  very little reading of history but a genuine empathy for people 

And I always feel more intelligent after reading your posts.

:tu:

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Habitat
21 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

And I always feel more intelligent after reading your posts.

:tu:

You feel more intelligent, because you feel informed, or........?

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esoteric_toad

http://whatstheharm.net

Always a useful tool.

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Liquid Gardens
8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Not guessing. it is known economic, political and social fact from history

No it isn't, it's a claim about an alternate history that didn't occur.

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

eg you narrowly defeat a powerful enemy 

What do you do next? 

Let them redevelop their power? 

Use slavery to ensure they do not rise again as a nation state to seek revenge. 

Not sure why you're mentioning this, no one is questioning why people would be motivated to enslave others.

Quote

But yes, I've had to deal with this academically for half a century, Someone would have told me if i was objectively incorrect.

That may be one of the worst reasons you should think something to be true.  If you behave IRL as you do sometimes here when it is suggested you are incorrect ('maybe you don't know much about history', 'I have studied for 50 years whatever you're talking about', et al), your assumption that someone would even bother to let you know when they disagree with you is on very shaky ground. 

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eight bits
6 hours ago, Habitat said:

I see, you can't think of any major wrongs that need righting, that exist today, but will be frowned upon in the future. I suppose that sort of excuses those that were similarly blind to the evils of slavery.

I'm unsure how you fantasize the people of the past to have been. There is ample evidence that, even if nothing more profound dawned on any of them, people have always understood that whatever evil befalls one person or group could someday befall them or their group. Then or now, this may not rise to a reason for the currently unafflicted to refrain from working evil on those whom they can victimize, but then and now it sure as hell lights a fire under their butts to take precuations against it happening to them.

Nobody was ever blind to the evils of slavery. They all paid money toward the common defense, and many served personally. There are other uses of money, and  other ways to use your time. But if you let the common defense slip, then you were likely to become somebody's slave, and nobody had to be psychic to foresee that that would be a bad thing, an evil thing.

What I can't think of is any truly novel evil. There is a certain sameness to it, as far back as we have records. The technology changes (waterboarding is a genuine advance over the rack), but the general ideas stay the same. Or so it seems to me.

 

5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Its hard to judge the level of education /general knowledge OR the nature of people on line.  I don't understand the way Sherapy totally misrepresents many things i post.

It is either from an ignorance of the facts OR, less charitably, deliberate ad  hominem commentary. She rarely challenges factual statements, just attacks  me for making them.  eg  "slavery is always evil"

I wouldn't worry so much about other posters' levels of education. And slavery is always evil is a not a personal attack, unless you happen to be a slave owner. I'd imagine not.

Oh yeah, Sherapy's one of the classiest posters on the board. If her criticisms are more than you can handle, then you're in the wrong place. Maybe you're just too good for the web.

5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 I am sure you understand the meaning of viable and how it narrows the claim Some societies could have stopped slavery but might have collapsed, been defeated militarily, or  created great hardships for ALL people in the society 

Viable is (in American jargon) a weasel word. It gives the appearance of "narrowing the claim," but wink, wink, nod, nod, it doesn't really narrow anything.

Moi? I never said it was the only option, I just said that some societies would have collapsed, been defeated militarily, or have created great hardships for everybody in the society if they stopped doing it.

Uh, huh. Viable: Don't post bo****ks without it.

Edited by eight bits
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Sherapy
9 hours ago, eight bits said:

Good that you aren't certain of it, since your analysis is visibly false. You seem to glimpse the truth, though. You propose:

That's a fact claim, and the sort of thing that a person needn't be ignorant nor willful to dispute.

As to indentured servitude, yes it has some of the attributes of slavery. Slavery has all of the attributes of slavery. Many would think that that makes slavery worse than indentured servitude. That's hardly a singing commercial for indentured servitude, and slavery's resemblance to indentured servitude does nothing to rehabilitate slavery.

I would think that we could reach some consensus that the less like slavery a labor system was, the better that usually turns out for the laborers.

Another poster mentioned "virtue signalling" in posting such a view. Well, I suppose not having one's head up one's butt is a signal of some sort.

Indeed, no matter the context slavery is/was an awful practice.

What else needs to be said about it.  

Thank you for ending this BS. 

Great post.

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Sherapy
2 hours ago, eight bits said:

I'm unsure how you fantasize the people of the past to have been. There is ample evidence that, even if nothing more profound dawned on any of them, people have always understood that whatever evil befalls one person or group could someday befall them or their group. Then or now, this may not rise to a reason for the currently unafflicted to refrain from working evil on those whom they can victimize, but then and now it sure as hell lights a fire under their butts to take precuations against it happening to them.

Nobody was ever blind to the evils of slavery. They all paid money toward the common defense, and many served personally. There are other uses of money, and  other ways to use your time. But if you let the common defense slip, then you were likely to become somebody's slave, and nobody had to be psychic to foresee that that would be a bad thing, an evil thing.

What I can't think of is any truly novel evil. There is a certain sameness to it, as far back as we have records. The technology changes (waterboarding is a genuine advance over the rack), but the general ideas stay the same. Or so it seems to me.

 

I wouldn't worry so much about other posters' levels of education. And slavery is always evil is a not a personal attack, unless you happen to be a slave owner. I'd imagine not.

Oh yeah, Sherapy's one of the classiest posters on the board. If her criticisms are more than you can handle, then you're in the wrong place. Maybe you're just too good for the web.

Viable is (in American jargon) a weasel word. It gives the appearance of "narrowing the claim," but wink, wink, nod, nod, it doesn't really narrow anything.

Moi? I never said it was the only option, I just said that some societies would have collapsed, been defeated militarily, or have created great hardships for everybody in the society if they stopped doing it.

Uh, huh. Viable: Don't post bo****ks without it.

Well said! 

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jmccr8
8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I see jmcr8s comments as genuine and coming from  very little reading of history but a genuine empathy for people 

Hi Walker

Got a surprise today, a client told me it was a religious holiday and that I could stay home. Believe it or not, that is a first in my book of experiences.:D

Just wondering whether or not you think I read the links I post for you to discuss with, I read yours and then respond with material that counters or supports a position. No, I generally don't read historical soap operas so I can imagine what things were like in the past and fantasize, I do read the research and compare it to what I have had real life experience with. 

I worked as a bouncer in a lowlife bar full of pimps, prostitutes, dealers, drug addicts, and other various socially corrupt individuals and rest assured there are many similarities with the slave industry. The one pimp was especially volatile and brutal and damn he had been shot, stabbed and beat but just wouldn't die, I saw some of his enforcement tactics and did help some of his girls get away and into a new life in other cities. You may not see it in the same sense that I do but I didn't come to my conclusions based on fictional accounts because those were real people in the real world that I lived in.

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Yes it is a fact claim that slavery was sometimes the only VIABLE option, given the socio economic, political, military, and technological realities of specific times and places.

I disagree.

BBC - Ethics - Slavery: Attempts to justify slavery

BBC - Ethics - Slavery: Philosophers justifying slavery

Slavery in the Roman World - Ancient History Encyclopedia

SLAVERY IN ANCIENT WORLD

And yes I did read them.

Walker, I try to challenge your position and understand that you think that in those times it had to be that way and have not attacked your character for holding the position that you have expressed here as I believe that it is possible that without slavery at any time in history our tech would have still progressed to current levels and that slavery was not essential to our advancement as a whole.

jmccr8

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Hammerclaw
2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Got a surprise today, a client told me it was a religious holiday and that I could stay home. Believe it or not, that is a first in my book of experiences.:D

Just wondering whether or not you think I read the links I post for you to discuss with, I read yours and then respond with material that counters or supports a position. No, I generally don't read historical soap operas so I can imagine what things were like in the past and fantasize, I do read the research and compare it to what I have had real life experience with. 

I worked as a bouncer in a lowlife bar full of pimps, prostitutes, dealers, drug addicts, and other various socially corrupt individuals and rest assured there are many similarities with the slave industry. The one pimp was especially volatile and brutal and damn he had been shot, stabbed and beat but just wouldn't die, I saw some of his enforcement tactics and did help some of his girls get away and into a new life in other cities. You may not see it in the same sense that I do but I didn't come to my conclusions based on fictional accounts because those were real people in the real world that I lived in.

I disagree.

BBC - Ethics - Slavery: Attempts to justify slavery

BBC - Ethics - Slavery: Philosophers justifying slavery

Slavery in the Roman World - Ancient History Encyclopedia

SLAVERY IN ANCIENT WORLD

And yes I did read them.

Walker, I try to challenge your position and understand that you think that in those times it had to be that way and have not attacked your character for holding the position that you have expressed here as I believe that it is possible that without slavery at any time in history our tech would have still progressed to current levels and that slavery was not essential to our advancement as a whole.

jmccr8

That's very noble and altruistic, but you woefully understate how much selfishness and greed has been the driving force of civilization's advancement. The railroads knit this country together, but the callousness and cruelty and disdain for human decency and human life of it's robber barons was appalling. Your hypothetical reality jars uneasily with actual history.

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jmccr8
10 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

That's very noble and altruistic, but you woefully understate how much selfishness and greed has been the driving force of civilization's advancement. The railroads knit this country together, but the callousness and cruelty and disdain for human decency and human life of it's robber barons was appalling. Your hypothetical reality jars uneasily with actual history.

Hi Hammer

I understand that people have been used for profit and this has been going on since large urban cultures developed but do not think that we could not have achieved the same level of development by other means which is why in earlier post used the example of the 10s of thousands of years of human history prior that did not rely on slavery and still flourished enough to populate most of the known world and develop tools, housing, seed crop development and domestication of animals. 

Yes, greed and power accumulated through property ownership created conditions that were not, in my opinion, the best for the whole. Wars were about acquiring wealth and resources rather than the exchange of goods and for some to argue the need for slavery in any form for the betterment of culture is weak at best. Sure we can say it happened at specific times in history and that was what people were taught to believe was the best way to advance the development of cultures but did all of the people within that culture believe it was true or were they too poor/scared to speak out as a community or as an individual? It would be hard to gauge as most records do not discuss how the common man saw the world they lived in and we can only go on what the winners and wealthy have been documented to have an influence on. 

I know that I have some biases because of what I have seen in my life and that Is why I think it is good to challenge each other and make each other think about how we see the past, present and hopefully learn to create a better future for all men. Some argue that the end of slavery in the States was progressive but look how long it took for changes to occur with respect to opportunities for people to go from being slaves to being able to get an education and compete for employment opportunities that would give them the same standard of living as much of the population. Bigotry and racism still restricted social movement and subcultures evolved into criminal elements that are just as harmful as slavery was.

Canada still has a small landmass to population ratio and when I think of how so few people created the massive infrastructure to allow for the movement of resources/products and people to develop ourselves to compete on an international level is impressive. And yet some parts of this country like my home province which is resource-rich could not develop them because of how small the population was and many lived in poorer conditions and yet still took time to help each other build a life(more so in rural areas than urban centers). Our major income was farming and if the farmers did have a good year the whole province was affected because if the farmers weren't making money no one did. When I started working in construction it was seasonal work so a person had to be able resourceful to maintain an income by doing different types of seasonal work.

We had issues with racism as well and it was quite harsh for some people as many would not employ First Nations people and such bigotry made integration difficult creating social issues like crime, addictions, and abuses that still continue to this day. I will stop at this point as all I intended was that some of us grew up in such vastly different environments and will see some issues in different ways like Walker and myself.

jmccr8

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Habitat
9 hours ago, eight bits said:

What I can't think of is any truly novel evil.

How about mass incarceration in your own country, completely out of proportion to population size, compared to other major countries. I suspect a great many citizens would think they all deserve to be in there, serving long jail sentences, just like in yesteryear, slaves would have been considered by many, to be in their rightful place. Something seriously wrong when the prison population increases 700%  while the population goes up by 50%. Admittedly, it appears to have plateaued, and is receding, but how many lives have been blighted by it. Who's to blame ?

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Hammerclaw
3 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Hammer

I understand that people have been used for profit and this has been going on since large urban cultures developed but do not think that we could not have achieved the same level of development by other means which is why in earlier post used the example of the 10s of thousands of years of human history prior that did not rely on slavery and still flourished enough to populate most of the known world and develop tools, housing, seed crop development and domestication of animals. 

Yes, greed and power accumulated through property ownership created conditions that were not, in my opinion, the best for the whole. Wars were about acquiring wealth and resources rather than the exchange of goods and for some to argue the need for slavery in any form for the betterment of culture is weak at best. Sure we can say it happened at specific times in history and that was what people were taught to believe was the best way to advance the development of cultures but did all of the people within that culture believe it was true or were they too poor/scared to speak out as a community or as an individual? It would be hard to gauge as most records do not discuss how the common man saw the world they lived in and we can only go on what the winners and wealthy have been documented to have an influence on. 

I know that I have some biases because of what I have seen in my life and that Is why I think it is good to challenge each other and make each other think about how we see the past, present and hopefully learn to create a better future for all men. Some argue that the end of slavery in the States was progressive but look how long it took for changes to occur with respect to opportunities for people to go from being slaves to being able to get an education and compete for employment opportunities that would give them the same standard of living as much of the population. Bigotry and racism still restricted social movement and subcultures evolved into criminal elements that are just as harmful as slavery was.

Canada still has a small landmass to population ratio and when I think of how so few people created the massive infrastructure to allow for the movement of resources/products and people to develop ourselves to compete on an international level is impressive. And yet some parts of this country like my home province which is resource-rich could not develop them because of how small the population was and many lived in poorer conditions and yet still took time to help each other build a life(more so in rural areas than urban centers). Our major income was farming and if the farmers did have a good year the whole province was affected because if the farmers weren't making money no one did. When I started working in construction it was seasonal work so a person had to be able resourceful to maintain an income by doing different types of seasonal work.

We had issues with racism as well and it was quite harsh for some people as many would not employ First Nations people and such bigotry made integration difficult creating social issues like crime, addictions, and abuses that still continue to this day. I will stop at this point as all I intended was that some of us grew up in such vastly different environments and will see some issues in different ways like Walker and myself.

jmccr8

I see a thin stream of water falling from a height to splash on the rocks below. A young woman stands before it dressed in somber colors her long black hair disturbed by the wind and a sad expression on her face.

Urbanization corrupted our spirits, from ancient Sumer to Mayapan it was all the same.

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eight bits
1 hour ago, Habitat said:

How about mass incarceration in your own country, completely out of proportion to population size, compared to other major countries.

What about it? Plenty of people here push back against the situation, and perhaps we've actually been making some headway. The prevalence of incarceration is only symptomatic of a problem; the problem itself is more about who gets incarcerated for what and for how long. Too many is the tip of an iceberg of wrong.

You seem to confuse bad things happen with few people see what's bad about them. Seeing what's bad about them doesn't mean the good side automatically prevails. By and large, the majority gets its way here, and they don't need unanimirty to do it. In fact, a minority can swing it, as evidenced by who's President and who got more votes last time out. (The same thing can happen in typical parliamentary systems, too, where you rule by leading the party that wins more seats, not more votes.)

Seeing what's bad about the bad things that happen doesn't even mean that somebody joins the good side. There's nothing new about that, either.

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Sherapy
21 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Romantic idealist, versus practical  realist.

What are you giving up to change the plight of young people kept  as slaves in plantation industries today?

What are you doing to stop the sex trade in slaves?  

What are you doing to stop animal cruelty around the world? 

Well, since you ask, the caregiver industry takes advantage of and exploits and downright lies to caregivers many are treated like indentured slaves, with no benefits or any hope for financial growth or job protection. So, with a doctor friend of mine who went to Capitol Hill as part of the team that brought in a home health care called Right Care together we are in the process of starting a local Caregivers Union. 

 

 

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Sherapy
7 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Got a surprise today, a client told me it was a religious holiday and that I could stay home. Believe it or not, that is a first in my book of experiences.:D

Just wondering whether or not you think I read the links I post for you to discuss with, I read yours and then respond with material that counters or supports a position. No, I generally don't read historical soap operas so I can imagine what things were like in the past and fantasize, I do read the research and compare it to what I have had real life experience with. 

I worked as a bouncer in a lowlife bar full of pimps, prostitutes, dealers, drug addicts, and other various socially corrupt individuals and rest assured there are many similarities with the slave industry. The one pimp was especially volatile and brutal and damn he had been shot, stabbed and beat but just wouldn't die, I saw some of his enforcement tactics and did help some of his girls get away and into a new life in other cities. You may not see it in the same sense that I do but I didn't come to my conclusions based on fictional accounts because those were real people in the real world that I lived in.

I disagree.

BBC - Ethics - Slavery: Attempts to justify slavery

BBC - Ethics - Slavery: Philosophers justifying slavery

Slavery in the Roman World - Ancient History Encyclopedia

SLAVERY IN ANCIENT WORLD

And yes I did read them.

Walker, I try to challenge your position and understand that you think that in those times it had to be that way and have not attacked your character for holding the position that you have expressed here as I believe that it is possible that without slavery at any time in history our tech would have still progressed to current levels and that slavery was not essential to our advancement as a whole.

jmccr8

I think it is amazing what you did as a bartender, kudo’s to you.

I tend towards stepping up and stepping in too if I know I have the means and connections to help.

Edited by Sherapy
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Habitat
4 minutes ago, eight bits said:

What about it? Plenty of people here push back against the situation, and perhaps we've actually been making some headway. The prevalence of incarceration is only symptomatic of a problem; the problem itself is more about who gets incarcerated for what and for how long. Too many is the tip of an iceberg of wrong.

You seem to confuse bad things happen with few people see what's bad about them. Seeing what's bad about them doesn't mean the good side automatically prevails. By and large, the majority gets its way here, and they don't need unanimirty to do it. In fact, a minority can swing it, as evidenced by who's President and who got more votes last time out. (The same thing can happen in typical parliamentary systems, too, where you rule by leading the party that wins more seats, not more votes.)

Seeing what's bad about the bad things that happen doesn't even mean that somebody joins the good side. There's nothing new about that, either.

700% speaks volumes. This grew like topsy for decades. Clearly it wasn't seen as a major issue with the population, the majority of whom, as I say, are on-board with it, and plenty of politicians get elected on a platform of being "tough on crime"/ In Australia, I think we are too easy on crime, the fact young people front courts with criminal histories that already run to many pages, clearly says the sentences they got previously, were inadequate. All of this happens with the complicity of the wider population, whether it be excessive incarceration in the USA, or inadequate elsewhere.

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jmccr8
4 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I think it is amazing what you did as a bartender, kudo’s to you.

I tend towards stepping up and stepping in too where I see an issue. 

Hi Sherapy

Thanks, I was just trying to give Walker a glimpse into why I find certain attitudes unacceptable.

jmccr8

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and then
On 2/18/2019 at 9:07 PM, Jodie.Lynne said:

Why do YOU continue to argue this issue?

Good topic.  On the few occasions where I have input it is to make specific points about what I believe.  I no longer bother with attempting to engage or discuss my faith because most nonbelievers seemingly have a need, almost an obsession to convince persons of faith that they are at best, delusional and at worst intractably ignorant.  Those beliefs no longer bother me but I see no need to defend what I believe to people who will not, under any circumstance change their minds about me or my belief.  No hard feelings, I just don't care.

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