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Jodie.Lynne

I don't believe you

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Habitat
25 minutes ago, eight bits said:

exploitation of non-unionized labor fly beneath your moral radar.

That is just you parading your "moral superiority" again, nowhere do I approve of exploitation of any sort !

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Habitat said:

This is not about how good people are to their children, it is about attitudes of superiority to others that make it easier for people to rationalize exploiting others, that makes them think that it is nothing more than the natural order of things. Generally speaking, even the worst of those people are protective of their own children.

You have completely lost me, what exactly do you have an issue with?

 

 

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Habitat
13 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

You have completely lost me, what exactly do you have an issue with?

 

 

Your being solicitous of your children doesn't have much to do with wider social justice issues, is what I'm saying. Though I will grant all such things do "start at home". In the case of many people, though, they don't extend much further.

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Sherapy
18 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Your being solicitous of your children doesn't have much to do with wider social justice issues, is what I'm saying. Though I will grant all such things do "start at home". In the case of many people, though, they don't extend much further.

Question, were you implying that I have a superiority complex?

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Jodie.Lynne
14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

If slavery is always evil and unjustifiable, how is it possible to justify abortion? 

Comparing apples to orangutans here.

Abortion is not a systemic enterprise that affects entire swathes of a culture.

To compare an individual's personal choice to a cultural practice, like slavery, is a strawman argument.

Do you concede the point that there are legitimate reasons for abortion?

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Habitat
4 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Question, were you implying that I have a superiority complex?

Only in relation to Mr Wooker !

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Sherapy
22 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Only in relation to Mr Wooker !

I interpreted your post as you were implying I had a superiority complex because I conclude rape and slavery are harmful and not viable. 

As far as Walker goes, maybe it is a projection on your part or his. 

As far as I am concerned his arguments are the only thing under my radar, not him as a person.

 

 

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Mr Walker
15 hours ago, eight bits said:

No, What's on Second; Who's on first, I Don't Know's on third.

Certainly, but continuing heavy reliance upon slavery also had substantial real costs and risks. Status quo bias often takes the form of pricing change while assuming that no-change comes free of charge.

In any case, we are not slave owners, you and I, nor are we slaves. There is no real point in our discussing how lucrative slavery can be as a business plan, nor how sweet our lives would be with a Master's benevolent oversight. The third-party interest (us) is the curiosity that there are these famous documents which portray slavery as the right thing to do. We ought, I think, to be able to agree that these documents are at best dated in their economic advice, and that their "wisdom," at least on this point, was never of more than local and passing application.

Ah. Whatever really is strictly necessary (as opposed to "viably necessary," which means elective) can reasonably be exempted from moral deliberation. At most, we can regret genuine necessity. With or without strict necessity, emergencies (= urgent temporary desperate circumstances) may be met with measures that wouldn't be tolerated except for the desperate urgency at hand, and won't be tolerated for long.

We were, however, discussing institutionalized persistent and routine recourse to slave labor, in circumstances where change is possible, however unattractive change would for the slave-owning class (and to hear you tell it, often for the slaves themselves).

I welcome the thought that those who come after me will do better than I did. One way that that is helped along is if I do my part to recognize the mistakes of the past, and with luck, my successors will do the same with my mistakes.

I can think of many exceptions, but we needn't digress further. Sherapy is not your problem, and UM isn't an academy.

One of your fans used the term. It's not really ad hom so much as an unsympathetic description of speech, the mirror image of dog whistle. In its original use, the actual intended audience appreciates the content of the speech being so described, while the user of the term who "overhears" the speech does not. In the US, the political left is said to signal virtue while the political right is said to dog whistle. For either wing, such speech supposedly enhances solidarity and allows the speaker to self-identify as a member of the group.

Finally, since you bring up abortion, it is a nice illustration that trying to second-guess how future generations will view our choices is unhelpful as a means of current moral deliberation. At least in the United States, both sides expect to be "vindicated by history." Thus, any actual intelligent discussion of the issue needs some other foundation.

 

IMO viable means possible, not electively possible. If something is not viable it will die. if it is viable it will live.

Viable literally means able to live.

If taking slavery from a society means that society is no longer viable then, as a society it will die, with consequent suffering  and death for all in the society.  

An yes, that which is necessary, eg for survival, is largely, but not totally, freed from  ethical/ moral constraints 

i agree that  we learn from  history, but that is not to say that, IN THE PAST, slavery was a mistake or wrong

it is not to say that in some future time it may become necessary again

All we can say is that, today, in strong economies, there is no need for slavery and it can thus  be condemned 

This relativism  applies to abortion as well.

Neither side will be "vindicated"  by either past history or future.

What we have is a society structured in a way that, currently, there is a  genuine need for some women to have abortions and the right social attitudes and values to permit it.

In past societies that need was not as great ( and the social attitudes and values did NOT permit it)  and in future ones,  the meed for abortions  may not exist at all and there may be no social support for it. 

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Comparing apples to orangutans here.

Abortion is not a systemic enterprise that affects entire swathes of a culture.

To compare an individual's personal choice to a cultural practice, like slavery, is a strawman argument.

Do you concede the point that there are legitimate reasons for abortion?

No I am comparing two ethical and moral problems which really are identical Far more human children have been killed by abortion, than ever died as slaves, or even became slaves 

The reason you cannot see the equivalency of the issues lies in your social conditioning towards both issues 

You believe a baby is a part of a woman body. It is not. it is a new human being dependent due to biology on its mother  for a very short part of ite life 

To say," I have a right to kill my unborn baby"  is no different to saying" i have a right to kill my slave"  (both rely on the belief that  you can "own " something which you cannot) 

I already explained that I supported abortion in practice (even up to it being funded like all other medical procedures by the taxpayer)   while opposing it in principle  (because it is morally wrong and should ONLY be allowed where there are compelling other reasons for it )  due to the legitimate reasons for it in today[s society .

My point was that i can also see "legitimate" HISTORICAL  reasons for slavery, despite opposing it in principle  (from 1976 to 1997 there were over 1 million legal abortions in america every year) Since then then rate has been about 800000 every year  that is around 40 MILLION unborn humans were legally killed in america alone since 1976 That is not a "personal choice issue"   it is a "systemic enterprise affecting all of america" 

And yet yes i do support a woman's right to have an abortion under a number of circumstances, but not simply because she has a right to terminate any unborn child she bears . 

Banning abortion does great harm to some women in the current environment. Banning slavery would have done great harm to many people in past environments. 

Edited by Mr Walker
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Mr Walker
15 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Basically, you have bought into the myth of the contented slave,  Your opinion is duly noted and completely refuted. 

You go onto add there are good arguments as to why rape was not wrong within a marriage. 

Of course, there are no good arguments for rape. 

Human’s do not always make the best choices and yes, we even commit great acts of evil, I would put slavery and rape on this list, so we respond by getting proactive to try and prevent the same harm to generations to come. 

The why or what motivated a person to such savagery helps us address and hopefully redirect/rewrite  one’s perspective by appealing to one’s humanity or, empathy towards the greatest good. 

 

 

 

Basically i never mentioned such a thing or thought it 

i did suggest that most humans  would prefer to be living slaves than dead freemen despite rhetoric to the contrary After all most slaves could have killed themselves or risen in rebellion, if they  preferred death

I did say that many slaves lived better, safer, and more comfortable lives than equivalent freemen. (quite true in ancient societies) 

And yes there were good reasons why rape was not wrong in marriage in those societies .

The most compelling is simple. It is that  neither legally nor in people's thoughts was it ever considered that a married woman would refuse consent except when she was physically incapable,  After all, her marriage vows and the law meant she had surrendered her right to say no (this also applied to men ) Thus there was no such thing as RAPE (non consensual sex)  within a marriage  because marriage made all sex consensual  by law. 

Ethics moralities and practices are not changed by changing peoples' values. Peoples values are changed by the conditioning the y receive living in a society, and this depends on levels of technology education etc.   We are all products of our society and find it very hard to step outside  our own beliefs 

Slavery has never been ended until it became economical to end it.  Women were never given rights  until the economy meant the y had power, and used it to gain rights

Animal rights never arose until animals became less important in the economic base of societies 

Trade unions arose withe advent of industrialised societies and have declined and lost power in the post industrial age.

Universal education never occurred until it was needed, for young people to be able to calculate, read and write, and have some skills for the new forms of work in the victorian age 

 

Edited by Mr Walker

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jmccr8
9 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I did say that many slaves lived better, safer, and more comfortable lives than equivalent freemen. (quite true in ancient societies) 

The lot of agricultural slaves (vincti) was probably one of the worst as they were usually housed in barrack buildings (ergastula) in poor, prison-like conditions and often kept in chains. Pompeii has revealed such work gangs chained together in death as they were in life. Other skeletal remains from Pompeii have also revealed the chronic arthritis and distortion of limbs that could only have been produced by extreme overwork and malnutrition

Hi Walker

This is one of the reasons that I ask people if they read the links that are posted.:lol:

Not sure what you think better, safer, and more comfortable means but this ain't it.:lol:

jmccr8

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jmccr8
55 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

If taking slavery from a society means that society is no longer viable then, as a society it will die, with consequent suffering  and death for all in the society.  

Hi Walker

When have we seen the collapse of society because of the abolishment of slavery in any country, from what I can tell it didn't as we are still here and progressing culturally, economically and technically so the argument for slavery does not seem to be valid from what I have seen?

Timeline of abolition of slavery and serfdom - Wikipedia

jmccr8

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onlookerofmayhem
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Far more human children have been killed by abortion, than ever died as slaves, or even became slaves 

Can you provide a source for that claim?

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Basically i never mentioned such a thing or thought it 

i did suggest that most humans  would prefer to be living slaves than dead freemen despite rhetoric to the contrary After all most slaves could have killed themselves or risen in rebellion, if they  preferred death

I did say that many slaves lived better, safer, and more comfortable lives than equivalent freemen. (quite true in ancient societies) 

And yes there were good reasons why rape was not wrong in marriage in those societies .

The most compelling is simple. It is that  neither legally nor in people's thoughts was it ever considered that a married woman would refuse consent except when she was physically incapable,  After all, her marriage vows and the law meant she had surrendered her right to say no (this also applied to men ) Thus there was no such thing as RAPE (non consensual sex)  within a marriage  because marriage made all sex consensual  by law. 

Ethics moralities and practices are not changed by changing peoples' values. Peoples values are changed by the conditioning the y receive living in a society, and this depends on levels of technology education etc.   We are all products of our society and find it very hard to step outside  our own beliefs 

Slavery has never been ended until it became economical to end it.  Women were never given rights  until the economy meant the y had power, and used it to gain rights

Animal rights never arose until animals became less important in the economic base of societies 

Trade unions arose withe advent of industrialised societies and have declined and lost power in the post industrial age.

Universal education never occurred until it was needed, for young people to be able to calculate, read and write, and have some skills for the new forms of work in the victorian age 

 

“And yes there were good reasons why rape was not wrong in marriage in those societies” ( Walker) 

Now you are just trolling. 

You opinions are barbaric and savage.

I will no longer engage in this topic with you, 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Hammerclaw
7 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

“And yes there were good reasons why rape was not wrong in marriage in those societies” ( Walker) 

Now you are just trolling. 

You opinions are barbaric and savage.

I will no longer engage in this topic with you, 

 

Time out!

(MUSICAL INTERVENTION INTERLUDE)

 

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

When have we seen the collapse of society because of the abolishment of slavery in any country, from what I can tell it didn't as we are still here and progressing culturally, economically and technically so the argument for slavery does not seem to be valid from what I have seen?

Timeline of abolition of slavery and serfdom - Wikipedia

jmccr8

Because it isn’t valid. 

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Hammerclaw

Slavery, that ancient and peculiar institution. is something Western society and civilization evolved beyond. To argue for or against is as ludicrous as arguing for or against the horse and buggy. The past is best left within the context of history and with some depth of understanding of social evolution. This egotistical animal called man has plenty of skeletons in it's collective closet. Better to let those spirits rest in peace than conjure them into present.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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jmccr8
13 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Slavery, that ancient and peculiar institution. is something Western society and civilization evolved beyond. To argue for or against is as ludicrous as arguing for or against the horse and buggy. The past is best left within the context of history and with some depth of understanding of social evolution. This egotistical animal called man has plenty of skeletons in it's collective closet. Better to let those spirits rest in peace than conjure them into present.

Hi Hammer

I am not sure I follow, slavery still exists today and likely will be there tomorrow for the same reason monetary gain. I am not trying to be abrasive nor abusive but everything that has happened is in the past like war, politics, sports, crime and will still be there in the future should we not discuss anything.

Yes maybe I have a bias because I had a cousin disappear hours after moving to Spain or have seen people living in forced servitude by criminal elements should I just accept that it happened yesterday and that was the climate of the day?

I like you Hammer and you are an asset for all of us so please do not take my comments as an affront to you as that is not my intent.

jmccr8

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Habitat

Who knows, in Valhalla the slave masters may serve the slaves. One must have that little bit of faith !

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Hammerclaw
25 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Hammer

I am not sure I follow, slavery still exists today and likely will be there tomorrow for the same reason monetary gain. I am not trying to be abrasive nor abusive but everything that has happened is in the past like war, politics, sports, crime and will still be there in the future should we not discuss anything.

Yes maybe I have a bias because I had a cousin disappear hours after moving to Spain or have seen people living in forced servitude by criminal elements should I just accept that it happened yesterday and that was the climate of the day?

I like you Hammer and you are an asset for all of us so please do not take my comments as an affront to you as that is not my intent.

jmccr8

That's why I only cited Western Civilization. It's an illegal activity, now, not a social norm. In the Middle East and the sub continent, things are not so sanguine.   Freedom good--Slavery Bad pretty much covers it. Also, if you want to explore one of the worst episodes of rape in the last one hundred years check out what happen to the women of Germany after surrender, during first year of the occupation. Sad thing is, no one cared. They figured they disserved it.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Habitat

I guess the greatest slavery in the modern West, is drug addiction. Millions who have a life that is "owned" by addiction. Curiously, no-one seems worried too much that it is a form of "human bondage".

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Hammerclaw
1 minute ago, Habitat said:

I guess the greatest slavery in the modern West, is drug addiction. Millions who have a life that is "owned" by addiction. Curiously, no-one seems worried too much that it is a form of "human bondage".

Yeah, we sat around one night playing cards, smoking cigarettes and drinking whiskey, discussing the plight of those poor addicts.

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Habitat
1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

Yeah, we sat around one night playing cards, smoking cigarettes and drinking whiskey, discussing the plight of those poor addicts.

It's all about money, of course, and some addictions are bigger poverty traps than others. I really don't know why drug education in schools doesn't centre on the business model, which of course is find the one in ten experimenters that gets hopelessly addicted, and bingo, you have a "captive" lucrative market. Thought of that way, people might see it differently. 

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Hammerclaw
Just now, Habitat said:

It's all about money, of course, and some addictions are bigger poverty traps than others. I really don't know why drug education in schools doesn't centre on the business model, which of course is find the one in ten experimenters that gets hopelessly addicted, and bingo, you have a "captive" lucrative market. Thought of that way, people might see it differently. 

Oh yeah, teenagers would be all over that.:rolleyes:

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Habitat
Just now, Hammerclaw said:

Oh yeah, teenagers would be all over that.:rolleyes:

Well, they don't like the idea of being  the odd-man out, which is what the "slave" addict is, the other 9 out of the ten, won't get to that stage/ Who wants to be that other fool that does.

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