Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -

I don't believe you


Jodie.Lynne

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Harte said:

Wiki

Harte

Holy crap. Now that surprised me.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Holy crap. Now that surprised me.

Yeah, me too.  I don't believe it anyway.  Wiki is not a reliable place to get information.  Those numbers would mean that half or more of china has been converted to an abrahamic religion and the same for India which is really unbelivable to me.

Edited by Desertrat56
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Yeah, me too.  I don't believe it anyway.  Wiki is not a reliable place to get information.  Those numbers would mean that half or more of china has been converted to an abrahamic religion and the same for India which is really unbelivable to me.

I would say it's a correct approximation, obviously it's can't be truly accurate.

Consider all of the US, Russia, South America, Australia, New Zealand, Middle East, Europe, most of the colonial places like Africa, Asian Pacific Islands. 

What areas are left? And the proportion of the world's population. China, Parts of Asia and Japan. (All of which still have an Abrahamic God believing population.)

So based on the above, while surprising, it's logical to assume the figure is an accurate reflection. I'd say the UN have good statistics on it. If you're interested.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Yeah, me too.  I don't believe it anyway.  Wiki is not a reliable place to get information.  Those numbers would mean that half or more of china has been converted to an abrahamic religion and the same for India which is really unbelivable to me.

Note that the population numbers come from 2005. In that year, the population of China was "only" 20% of world population. India's was slightly less (about 17%.)

So, those numbers don't mean that half or more of china has been converted to an Abrahamic religion and the same for India.

Not to say there weren't any adherents to Abrahamic religions in India and China at that time. But even if there weren't, there's still more than enough to make up the 54%.

Harte

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, danydandan said:

I would say it's a correct approximation, obviously it's can't be truly accurate.

Consider all of the US, Russia, South America, Australia, New Zealand, Middle East, Europe, most of the colonial places like Africa, Asian Pacific Islands. 

What areas are left? And the proportion of the world's population. China, Parts of Asia and Japan. (All of which still have an Abrahamic God believing population.)

So based on the above, while surprising, it's logical to assume the figure is an accurate reflection. I'd say the UN have good statistics on it. If you're interested.

No, I'm not really interested, I just don't believe the numbers are accurate and any time statistics are used I am suspicious because the sample may be too small, or the demographic might be biased or many other things.  I think the population of India and China together is at least 35% of the world population.  I would have to do a survey myself to be convinced that more than half of those people are involved in abrahmic religions.  Taiwan does not even allow christian missionaries to get a visa in their country, so I think the numbers are inflated.  AND you cannot assume that all the western and african countries you mentioned are almost completely populated by people involved in the abrahamic religions.  Even in the area I live in those religions together are barely a majority because more than are reported are not religious, meaning not affiliated with an abrahamic religion or any other.  Those number seem to bee to low on that article as well.

Edited by Desertrat56
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

No, I'm not really interested, I just don't believe the numbers are accurate and any time statistics are used I am suspicious because the sample may be too small, or the demographic might be biased or many other things.  I think the population of India and China together is at least 35% of the world population.  I would have to do a survey myself to be convinced that more than half of those people are involved in abrahmic religions.  Taiwan does not even allow christian missionaries to get a visa in their country, so I think the numbers are inflated.  AND you cannot assume that all the western and african countries you mentioned are almost completely populated by people involved in the abrahamic religions.  Even in the area I live in those religions together are barely a majority because more than are reported are not religious, meaning not affiliated with an abrahamic religion or any other.  Those number seem to bee to low on that article as well.

https://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/

That's an interesting read. But whatever, you aren't interested in it.

Edited by danydandan
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, danydandan said:

https://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/

That's an interesting read. But whatever, you aren't interested in it..

It is a projection with a bias.  Thanks anyway.  The data isn't even current.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

It is a projection with a bias.  Thanks anyway.  The data isn't even current.

How so? And we aren't really interested in the projection to 2050 just to roughly where we are now, 2019.

Of course it's not current we are basing our opinion on the most relevant data, which is from 2010. What are you basing your opinion on, your biases? 

Edited by danydandan
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, danydandan said:

How so?

Of course it's not current we are basing our opinion on the most relevant data, which is from 2010. What are you basing your opinion on, your biases? 

That was 9 years ago.  And I am basing it on my opinion and the fact that most people I know are not affiliated with any religion or they are Buddhist.  I should not have even said anything. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

That was 9 years ago.  And I am basing it on my opinion and the fact that most people I know are not affiliated with any religion or they are Buddhist.  I should not have even said anything. 

Do you really think popular beliefs have changed so much in nine years, when they have been rooted in society for hundreds?

You claim a small sample size or biases as a reason for accepting the approximation, yet adhere to your own small sample size (people you know). 

I'm just trying find out why you would not think you're being slightly hypocritical here.

Apply some Bayesian critical thinking here.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Do you really think popular beliefs have changed so much in nine years, when they have been rooted in society for hundreds?

You claim a small sample size or biases as a reason for accepting the approximation, yet adhere to your own small sample size (people you know). 

I'm just trying find out why you would not think you're being slightly hypocritical here.

Apply some Bayesian critical thinking here.

Yes, I do.  And I realize my sample size is small, but I think a lot of people are disaffected or have been betrayed by their religion and most do not go looking for another one, they step away from all of it.  There are fewer priests, no one wants to be a priest and fewer congregations except for the Mc Donalds style christian churches which is more about people switching churches than new people being recruited.  Apparently disaffected prisoners are being converted to islam but that is not changing the total numbers by much as it is usually changing from one abrahmic religion to another. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, danydandan said:

How so? And we aren't really interested in the projection to 2050 just to roughly where we are now, 2019.

Of course it's not current we are basing our opinion on the most relevant data, which is from 2010. What are you basing your opinion on, your biases? 

Not me, I’m basing mine on 2012 and FWIW Chinese Traditional Religion then only comes in at 5.5% or 394 million. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations#Adherent_estimates_in_2012

There’s also the following:

Quote

2012: a survey conducted by the China Family Panel Studies (CFPS) institute, found Christians forming 2.4% of the population of Han China, or between 30 and 40 million people in absolute numbers.[5] Of these, 1.9% were Protestants and 0.4% were Catholics.[5]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_China#Demographics_and_geography

Needless to say 2.4% isn’t nearly half or even close. 

cormac

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Needless to say 2.4% isn’t nearly half or even close. 

I think I've lost what's in dispute, although I didn't follow what numbers Desert was referring to that meant that half of China must be Abrahamically religious, I didn't see anything supporting that in the links.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I think I've lost what's in dispute, although I didn't follow what numbers Desert was referring to that meant that half of China must be Abrahamically religious, I didn't see anything supporting that in the links.

Post #4952. The link doesn’t support his interpretation.

cormac

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 26/06/2019 at 6:28 AM, danydandan said:

Cogito Ergo Sum.

Sum ergo cogito 

I am, therefore i think. :) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/26/2019 at 12:11 PM, danydandan said:

thus beliefs in God must by their nature ensure that non believers are punished. No matter how good that non believer is. 

To an extent... Yes. :mellow:

Though a God of Forgiveness is more likely to forgive you then most others.... :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

To an extent... Yes. :mellow:

Though a God of Forgiveness is more likely to forgive you then most others.... :D

Then there really is no benefit to either believe, or not believe, yes?

If you can be forgiven your sins, as a believer, and so can I as a non-believer, then what is the point?

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Not me, I’m basing mine on 2012 and FWIW Chinese Traditional Religion then only comes in at 5.5% or 394 million. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations#Adherent_estimates_in_2012

There’s also the following:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_China#Demographics_and_geography

Needless to say 2.4% isn’t nearly half or even close. 

cormac

I found this...

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/christianity-china

Quote

In 2010, the Pew Research Center calculated sixty-eight million Christians in China, or approximately 5 percent of the country’s population. Other independent estimates suggest somewhere between 100 and 130 million. Purdue’s Yang projected that if “modest” growth rates are sustained, China could have as many as 160 million Christians by 2025 and 247 million by 2030. Much of the discrepancy between official government numbers in China and expert estimates can be attributed to Beijing’s nonrecognition of Christians engaged in religious activity outside of state-sanctioned religious organizations.

I've also heard, from some people who were actual missionaries inside China, that the government actually is against Christianity increasing, and actively represses "House Churches", where believers congregate in their homes to worship and pray. They are only actually considered Christians if they go to the State sponsored church organizations. Anyone outside that is not a "Christian" as far as their statistics are concerned.

Quote

Today, an increasing number of human rights advocates and lawyers are Christian adherents, stoking party suspicions that Christianity could be a unifying force to challenge its authority. While religious leaders and practitioners may have no intention of undermining the party, the very perception of a threat by party leaders sets the stage for possible confrontation between churches and the state.

Implementation of religious policy is largely left to local party officials. Some have repressed religious groups, including high-profile cases such as the crackdowns on Zhejiang church crosses and Beijing’s Shouwang Church, the demolition of a megachurch in Shanxi Province, and the imposition of lengthy prison sentences on members of an unregistered church in Yunnan Province. 

Quote

In August 2014, Beijing announced its bid to nationalize Christianity at a conference entitled the “Sinicization of Christianity.” According to state media, SARA director Wang Zuoan said that Christian faith should first and foremost be compatible with the country’s path of socialism and that “the construction of Chinese Christian theology should adapt to China’s national condition and integrate with Chinese culture.” To complement this initiative, Beijing has enhanced efforts to bring unregistered churches and their members under the larger umbrella of the state-sanctioned authorities, though there are still significant regulatory obstacles that make the process of registering burdensome [PDF].

Point being... There is probably a LOT more then the 4% to 5% that the Chinese Government says there are. Though there is no where near 50% by anyone's real world estimates.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Then there really is no benefit to either believe, or not believe, yes?

If you can be forgiven your sins, as a believer, and so can I as a non-believer, then what is the point?

 

There's a couple reasons I'd say.

A believer is supposed to go directly to Heaven after dying. Everyone else who will be forgiven on Judgement Day will have to lay dead for God knows how long. So, being a "Saved" believer means going and being with friends and loved ones. AND, according to many denominations, being able to intercede with those you left on Earth so some degree. Helping their prayers get answered and such.

Also being a Christian has several social, emotional and spiritual, benefits. It is comforting to be with a lot of people like yourself. True, this is not unique to Christians, but in my experiences, most Americans at least, are very insular, and private. They don't go for large groups in most cases. Sure, people can have social benefits with clubs and support groups and whatnot, but those people are probably the except in the US, rather then the rule.

I'd not say that I "spy" on my neighbors, but it appears the only ones that seem to do group events, other then with direct family, are the religious ones.

So, though, I believe, most people will be Saved. I think not being a Believer is a harder row to hoe. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

There's a couple reasons I'd say.

A believer is supposed to go directly to Heaven after dying. Everyone else who will be forgiven on Judgement Day will have to lay dead for God knows how long. So, being a "Saved" believer means going and being with friends and loved ones. AND, according to many denominations, being able to intercede with those you left on Earth so some degree. Helping their prayers get answered and such.

Is there any Biblical support for this statement? If so, I've never heard of it.

Harte

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Harte said:

Is there any Biblical support for this statement? If so, I've never heard of it.

Harte

The first one that comes to mind is what Jesus says to the thief on the cross next to him. That they will meet in Paradise that same day. Luke 23:43

Also in Revelations (Rev 21), it says there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth. Meaning, by default, there is an "Old", or "Current" Heaven.

Also in Revelations (Rev 7:9), it says there are an unnumbered mass of people surrounding God's throne, while all the various activities of Revelations are going down, and they are dressed in white, and are those that came out of tribulation. This is before the wars of the False Prophet (Rev 17) and the Thousand Years of peace (Rev 20) so who else could they be?

In several of the Epistles the writer says that those, including themselves, are/will die and be with Jesus Christ. Such as Philippians 1:23, "“But I [Paul] am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;”" and 2 Corinthians 5:8, "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

The Nicene Creed, a bedrock of Christianity, says Jesus ascended to Heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. 

Elijah and Enoch were both supposed to have been taken physically up to Heaven.

Many denominations disagree on fine points though and some believe this, and some don't. I suspect it only matters in so far that there will either be a "high class lounge" to rest in before Judgement Day, or there will not be.

Edited by DieChecker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  It would seem that those are people that lived through (or died in) the Tribulation:

Quote

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7

Hard to get around John 3:13

Quote

13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Harte

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I think not being a Believer is a harder row to hoe. 

Maybe it would be easier if the religious believed in and practiced live and let live and stopped making war with unbelievers.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, Harte said:

  It would seem that those are people that lived through (or died in) the Tribulation:

Rev 7

Hard to get around John 3:13

Harte

But when is the tribulation? Some say that the time of the Apostles were the last days. So, from then to now could be called a continuing tribulation. Revelations doesn't capitalize it, like it does with many other specific times/places of the End Times. 

John 3:13 was written for those who came before Jesus. Jesus even says, right after that, that he comes to bring eternal life.

Many believe that after he died Jesus rescued those who had died before and had taken them to Heaven. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell

So if no one but Jesus went to Heaven, where did the thief on the cross go when Jesus said they would meet in paradise that same day?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, GoldenWolf said:

Maybe it would be easier if the religious believed in and practiced live and let live and stopped making war with unbelievers.

War?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.