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JonnyMcA

When was the eruption of Thera? Not 1627 BC!

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JonnyMcA

Dating the Bronze Age eruption of Thera (modern Santorini) is key to the understanding of the chronology of the Near East, as its fallout creates a datum that can synchronize the chronologies of Bronze Age civilizations.  The trouble is that there exists an impasse between the physical sciences and archaeology as to when it erupted.  The physical sciences prefer a late 17th century BC date based upon radiocarbon dates obtained from organic samples buried by the Theran pumice, as well as the assumptions that proxy signals in ice cores and tree ring chronologies record its atmospheric and climatic effects, whilst archaeology prefers a 16th century date based upon comparisons of pottery types, for example, and suspicions of the veracity of  the radiocarbon dating interpretations.

In a paper published in the journal Antiquity (Antiquity 93, 367, 99-112 (2019) https://doi.org/10.15184/aqy.2018.165), Jonny McAneney and Mike Baillie have revised the Greenland ice core chronologies back to around 2000 BC, which reveals the true volcanic history the of the 17th century BC.  What we find is that a climatic downturn in 1627 BC, evidenced in various tree ring chronologies, and which has been associated with the Theran debate since 1984, was in all probability caused by the large caldera forming eruption of Aniackchak in Alaska.  Furthermore, when we compare the dates for volcanic horizons in our revised ice core chronologies to the Theran radiocarbon evidence, we find disparate agreement.  We conclude that if Thera did erupt in the 17th century BC that it may either be an "invisible" eruption within the ice cores (pedantry allowing for it to be hidden by the eruption of Aniakchak), or that it actually erupted in the 16th century BC, as suggested by archaeology.  Indeed, this latter point is supported by the recent work of Pearson et al. (2018) who published data suggesting that the current radiocarbon calibration curve is in error between around 1660-1540 BC.  By performing single year radiocarbon measurements on bristlecone pine and Irish oak tree rings, they show that the radiocarbon age of the current calibration curve is too young in the 17th/16th centuries BC, which means any calibrated dates in this region will result in them being too old.  Thus they conclude that the calibrated radiocarbon dates for Thera are too old,with the true date lying somewhere in 16th century BC.

The relevant papers can be read and downloaded via Researchgate on the following links:

McAneney and Baillie (2019) "Absolute tree-ring dates for the late bronze age eruptions of Aniakchak and Thera in light of a proposed revision of ice-core chronologies"

McAneney and Baillie (2019) Supplementary material 

Pearson et al. (2018) Annual radiocarbon record indicates 16th century BCE date for the Thera eruption

Jonny

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JonnyMcA

Sorry, this post should probably have went to Palaeontology, Archaeology & History

Please move it to the correct board if it is in the wrong place.

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Windowpane
1 hour ago, JonnyMcA said:

Sorry, this post should probably have went to Palaeontology, Archaeology & History

Please move it to the correct board if it is in the wrong place.

 

Well: there have been suggestions that it might perhaps have influenced or inspired Plato's fictional tale of Atlantis, * about which there's been quite a bit of discussion on this particular forum recently ...  So its precise date could be of some interest.

* See, for example, Bettany Hughes on the red, black and white bricks of Atlantis and Akrotiri.

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JonnyMcA
Just now, Windowpane said:

 

Well: there have been suggestions that it might perhaps have influenced or inspired Plato's fictional tale of Atlantis, * about which there's been quite a bit of discussion on this particular forum recently ...  So its precise date could be of some interest.

* See, for example, Bettany Hughes on the red, black and white bricks of Atlantis and Akrotiri.

Yeah, I had seen other topics on Thera and Atlantis on this board in the past, but after I posted I noticed the Palaeontology, archaeology  and history board and wondered if it would have been better suited there.  I leave it up to the moderators of course as they know best, and I dont mind where it is located.

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docyabut2
1 hour ago, JonnyMcA said:

Yeah, I had seen other topics on Thera and Atlantis on this board in the past, but after I posted I noticed the Palaeontology, archaeology  and history board and wondered if it would have been better suited there.  I leave it up to the moderators of course as they know best, and I dont mind where it is located.

(archaeological (mid 16th–early 15th century BCE) dating evidence for Thera.)

Plato

Dated the king of Athens in the Atlantis story.

(This I infer because Solon said that the priests in their narrative of that war mentioned most of the names which are recorded prior to the time of Theseus, such as Cecrops)

King Cecrops 1 of Athens. 1582bc 

 http://www.forumancientcoins.com/cparada/GML/MythicalChronology.html      

Edited by docyabut2

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Kenemet
40 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

(archaeological (mid 16th–early 15th century BCE) dating evidence for Thera.)

Plato

Dated the king of Athens in the Atlantis story.

(This I infer because Solon said that the priests in their narrative of that war mentioned most of the names which are recorded prior to the time of Theseus, such as Cecrops)

King Cecrops 1 of Athens. 1582bc 

 http://www.forumancientcoins.com/cparada/GML/MythicalChronology.html      

As that web page says, "The chart does not establish precise historical dates, but shows the relative position in time of certain legends and characters as may be deduced from the legends themselves"

It doesn't say when these legends arose or which particular legends were used to establish dates.  That's rather like trying to date British history using Arthurian legends.  Legends are a poor hook on which to hang real events.

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docyabut2
6 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

As that web page says, "The chart does not establish precise historical dates, but shows the relative position in time of certain legends and characters as may be deduced from the legends themselves"

It doesn't say when these legends arose or which particular legends were used to establish dates.  That's rather like trying to date British history using Arthurian legends.  Legends are a poor hook on which to hang real events.

The Parian Chronicle or Parian Marble (Latin: Marmor Parium, abbr. Mar. Par.) is a Greek chronology, covering the years from 1582 BC to 299 BC, inscribed on a stele.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parian_Chronicle

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Windowpane
3 hours ago, Windowpane said:

 

Well: there have been suggestions that it might perhaps have influenced or inspired Plato's fictional tale of Atlantis, * about which there's been quite a bit of discussion on this particular forum recently ...  So its precise date could be of some interest.

* See, for example, Bettany Hughes on the red, black and white bricks of Atlantis and Akrotiri.

Although not everyone agrees with such suggestions!

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Sir Wearer of Hats
5 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Plato

Dated the king of Athens in the Atlantis story.   

Just drinks or were they more serious than that?

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atalante
5 hours ago, Kenemet said:

As that web page says, "The chart does not establish precise historical dates, but shows the relative position in time of certain legends and characters as may be deduced from the legends themselves"

It doesn't say when these legends arose or which particular legends were used to establish dates.  That's rather like trying to date British history using Arthurian legends.  Legends are a poor hook on which to hang real events.

Kenemet,

Docyabut was citing a chronology table, that was originally from PhD Carlos Parada.  For the original book, see https://www.amazon.com/Genealogical-Mythology-Studies-Mediterranean-Archaeology/dp/9170810621

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cormac mac airt
26 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

Hi all, what about the  Parian Marble ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parian_Chronicle

Being inscribed 1000+ years after the alleged events doesn't make it true. Where is any verifiable external support for its claims? 

cormac

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Harte
8 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

(archaeological (mid 16th–early 15th century BCE) dating evidence for Thera.)

Plato

Dated the king of Athens in the Atlantis story.

(This I infer because Solon said that the priests in their narrative of that war mentioned most of the names which are recorded prior to the time of Theseus, such as Cecrops)

King Cecrops 1 of Athens. 1582bc 

 http://www.forumancientcoins.com/cparada/GML/MythicalChronology.html      

In the paragraph previous to your quote of Critias:

Quote

Let me begin by observing first of all, that nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed since the war which was said to have taken place between those who dwelt outside the Pillars of Heracles and all who dwelt within them; this war I am going to describe.

Doesn't matter what any Greek chronology might say. It doesn't come close to Plato's.

Harte

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docyabut2
47 minutes ago, Harte said:

In the paragraph previous to your quote of Critias:

Doesn't matter what any Greek chronology might say. It doesn't come close to Plato's.

Harte

 nine thousand ? many  mistakes like atalante posted , Ulf`s posted on the mistakes   

Edited by docyabut2
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cormac mac airt
2 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

 nine thousand ? many  mistakes like atalante said Ulf posted.  

Then it’s not Plato’s Atlantis, it’s what YOU want it to be. 

cormac

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docyabut2
43 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Then it’s not Plato’s Atlantis, it’s what YOU want it to be. 

cormac

Wish I could start a thread that was deleted,  the new discoveries on Atlantis are so interesting, in watching that film.

60 minNew discoveries are helping archaeologists find hard evidence of the lost land of Atlantis, and using the latest science and cutting-edge technology, they investigate the ruins of mysterious sunken cities to get steps closer to finding this strange place.Finding Atlantis: The New Evidence

https://www.sciencechannel.com/schedule

 

Edited by docyabut2

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cormac mac airt
3 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

Wish I could start a thread that was deleted,  the new discoveries on Atlantis are so interesting.

60 minNew discoveries are helping archaeologists find hard evidence of the lost land of Atlantis, and using the latest science and cutting-edge technology, they investigate the ruins of mysterious sunken cities to get steps closer to finding this strange place.Finding Atlantis: The New Evidence

https://www.sciencechannel.com/schedule

 

Again NOT PLATO’S ATLANTIS. 

cormac

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docyabut2
27 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

You don’t want anyone to take you seriously, gotcha. 

Cormac

The film I was viewing is not on the net yet , its shows pavlopetri   a whole city, graves and the artifacts under water  are from Crete. a city and  a island that was between the pillars of Hercules

Greece_Pavlopetir_map.png

Edited by docyabut2

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Jodie.Lynne
5 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Just drinks or were they more serious than that?

You know what they say....

"What happens in Atlantis, stays in Atlantis" ;)

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Jodie.Lynne
36 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

The film I was viewing is not on the net yet , its shows pavlopetri   a whole city, graves and the artifacts under water  are from Crete. a city and  a island that was between the pillars of Hercules

Which, if you paid any attention to Plato, DOES NOT MATCH HIS DESCRIPTION!.

For your information, there are dozens, if not hundreds, of sunken cities across the globe. NONE of them fit the allegorical description of the entirely made-up city/nation of Atlantis.

And for the love of Mitra and Crom, I have no idea why I am even bothering to respond to you. But please, keep on repeating the same tired posts that illustrate your inane and irrational insistence of making fables real.

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docyabut2
13 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Which, if you paid any attention to Plato, DOES NOT MATCH HIS DESCRIPTION!.

For your information, there are dozens, if not hundreds, of sunken cities across the globe. NONE of them fit the allegorical description of the entirely made-up city/nation of Atlantis.

And for the love of Mitra and Crom, I have no idea why I am even bothering to respond to you. But please, keep on repeating the same tired posts that illustrate your inane and irrational insistence of making fables real.

I have to agree with one person said, its was a Egyptian tale of Thera  , but the earlier Greek writers placed a great civilization beyond their map.

 

Reconstruction of world map according to Dicaearchus (300 B.C.) the time Plato was written

111.JPEG

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cormac mac airt
28 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

I have to agree with one person said, its was a Egyptian tale of Thera  , but the earlier Greek writers placed a great civilization beyond their map.

 

Reconstruction of world map according to Dicaearchus (300 B.C.) the time Plato was written

111.JPEG

So the Greeks were too stupid to know where Thera was? 

cormac

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Tatetopa
12 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Plato

Dated the king of Athens in the Atlantis story.

I thought I had heard that Plato was gay, but I didn't know he was dating the king of Athens.  Thanks.

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