Did Paul report meeting Jesus' brother?

[ellapenella]

1 minute ago, Will Due said:

 

The Urantia Book is not a Bible.

Let's stick to the topic of the thread. 

When I read what Paul wrote it's clear to me that he's describing meeting the biological brothers of Jesus.

 

 

How do you view this book , the Urantia? Is it important enough for you to believe in it?

[ellapenella]

Paul may not have met James the brother of Jesus. It may have been another James. Look into it.  Some question or suspect that Paul may have killed James before his conversion.I haven't found any of what I shared just now in the bible but I've come across it. 

[Will Due]

 

I'd like to add that like Paul, the siblings of Jesus as well, did not sit at his feet to hear him teach the gospel of the kingdom. So going to James for a referrence to what Jesus taught would have been rather fruitless.

The evidence that suggests that his sibs weren't around much during the time he taught is wrapped up in what he was trying to say with "Who is my brother, my sister, my mother". That the indication was that his family was at the door and that because of it he should drop everything and tend to them while they practically had nothing to do with him otherwise. 

Was this because his family had abandoned him? Abandoned him because he would not be the conventional idea of the Jewish messiah his family thought he should be. A military general instead of a spiritual teacher?

 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Will Due

[danydandan]

8 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

Paul may not have met James the brother of Jesus. It may have been another James. Look into it.  Some question or suspect that Paul may have killed James before his conversion.I haven't found any of what I shared just now in the bible but I've come across it. 

Yeah he also may have met a James who's brother happened to be called Jesus. But that Jesus isn't the actual Jesus from the Bible.

It was a pretty common name in the area at the time. 

[Will Due]

13 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

How do you view this book , the Urantia? Is it important enough for you to believe in it?

 

I'll PM you.

 

 

[danydandan]

3 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

I'll PM you.

 

 

Will you finally might be able to convert someone! 

[Will Due]

21 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Will you finally might be able to convert someone! 

 

It's just a book. But it might also be a piece of the puzzle @eight bits was referring to the other day. You know, the puzzle that's like an addiction. 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Will Due

[Stubbly_Dooright]

On 2/20/2019 at 9:42 AM, eight bits said:

There is, however, a small patch of bedrock to the historicist position. Paul wrote that he met "the brother of the Lord," and that he knew of others.

Yeah, those could be interpolations (like everything else more than a few centuries old) and yeah, it is an odd way to say "Jesus' brother" (odd being the way Paul liked to say many things). Nevertheless, unless new evidence surfaces that the phrase really is faked or really means something else, then the historicist position has a secure foundation in evidence, not faith, not "consensus," not arguments from incredulity, authority, popularity, ...

Hi 8bits,  

Would you mean if I put in my secular observational bit? 

Yes, never read the bible, or any other orthodox literature and so forth, but from what I gather, isn't there a couple that lived for more than a hundred years, and then were 'gifted' a pregnancy? Reason I'm bringing that up, is that maybe there is a paranormal look to this, and that this brother found the fountain of youth. 

Granted, it's a way out in left field thought from a poster who probably has no clue if she understands it, but it seems that maybe should be suggested?  *looks incredibly sheepish* 

[ellapenella]

8 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Yeah he also may have met a James who's brother happened to be called Jesus. But that Jesus isn't the actual Jesus from the Bible.

It was a pretty common name in the area at the time. 

Some think Paul killed James before Paul converted. Jesus did have a brother who was called James. James was a devote Jew and so was Paul. 

So, what if anything do you understand about the high priest of Israel?

 

[Will Due]

17 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

Some think Paul killed James before Paul converted.

 

Aren't you confusing James the brother of Jesus with James Zebedee the apostle?

I don't think Paul killed anyone. Unless it was when his name was Saul.

 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Will Due

[Doug1029]

One thought:  what if Paul was actually Appolonius of Tyana?

How does that affect this?

Might there be a biblical reference to "Apollo" meaning Appolonius?

Doug

[danydandan]

34 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

Some think Paul killed James before Paul converted. Jesus did have a brother who was called James. James was a devote Jew and so was Paul. 

So, what if anything do you understand about the high priest of Israel?

 

Very little! Other than the list given in the Bible. 

But what's that have to do with anything being discussed?

Edited February 21, 2019 by danydandan

[eight bits]

1 hour ago, danydandan said:

Yeah he also may have met a James who's brother happened to be called Jesus. But that Jesus isn't the actual Jesus from the Bible.

It was a pretty common name in the area at the time. 

Right and that's the problem (ultimately fatal, IMO) with Josephus' report about the trial of James "the brother of Jesus called Christ" in 62 CE. Lots of other Jesuses, two of them in the same story with James.

The Paul mention is different. The literal text says the brother of the Lord, not "Jesus," but the title. For Paul "the Lord" is the Jesus we're interested in, to the exclusion of all others.  Alas, "the brother of" is a wildcard for Paul, and the beat goes on.

 

53 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Hi 8bits,  

Howdy, Stubbly.

Yes, you're thinking of Abraham and Sarah, who had baby Isaac when they were both of very advanced age.

As to a paranormal aspect, it does seem that the first generation of the Christian church was heavily into magic, Paul gives few details and avoids the subject of exorcism altogether, but apparently part of his "credentials" as an apostle was that he could work "the signs of an apostle." His churches were happenin' places: speaking in tongues, more conventional prophecies, and healings were regular features. I've read stories (from later authors) about raisings from the dead, but can't think of any "fountain of youth" stories.

There is one tradition about a "wandering Jew," who's condemened to live on indefinitely until Jesus returns, but Paul would have met this James within five years or so of Jesus' death (if Jesus was a real person), so the wandering Jew story probably hadn't been invented yet.

 

And a shoutout to @Ellapennella

This thread really is about the historical questions: with whom did Paul meet, and what does that mean for the prospects of a historical Jesus? While I appreciate that just asking the question has implications for your religion, the worst that could happen with this piece of evidence from your point of view is that it turns out to be irrelevant to the historicity of Jesus (e.g. maybe Paul met a James who, like Paul himself, never met Jesus in person). Otherwise, it can only support your beliefs.

That being so, maybe this thread isn't a great example of persecution?

Edited February 21, 2019 by eight bits

[ellapenella]

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

 

I'd like to add that like Paul, the siblings of Jesus as well, did not sit at his feet to hear him teach the gospel of the kingdom. So going to James for a referrence to what Jesus taught would have been rather fruitless.

The evidence that suggests that his sibs weren't around much during the time he taught is wrapped up in what he was trying to say with "Who is my brother, my sister, my mother". That the indication was that his family was at the door and that because of it he should drop everything and tend to them while they practically had nothing to do with him otherwise. 

Was this because his family had abandoned him? Abandoned him because he would not be the conventional idea of the Jewish messiah his family thought he should be. A military general instead of a spiritual teacher?

 

 

Haven't you ever heard anyone talk on this before?  

 

Blindness in part is happened to Israel - Partial blindness, or blindness to a part of them; for they were not all unbelievers: several thousands of them had been converted to the Christian faith; though the body of the nation, and especially its rulers, civil and spiritual, continued opposed to Christ and his doctrine.

Until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in - And this blindness will continue till the Church of the Gentiles be fully completed - 

https://www.studylight.org/commentary/romans/11-25.html

 

 

 

James remained the leader of the Jerusalem church until his death around A.D. 62. This is the account of his martyrdom according to Hegesippus (a 2nd century Christian about whom little is known), which is quoted in Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, vol. II, ch. 23 (A.D. 323).

I'm retelling the story in my own words, not quoting him. Eusebius gives three versions of the death of James: one from Clement of Alexandria, one from Hegesippus, and one from Josephus (yes, Josephus' Antiquities was being quoted way back then!). This is Hegesippus' version, which Eusebius judges the most accurate.

Historians, however, prefer Josephus' account of the death of James, which I'll cover in a paragraph or two at the end of the page.

https://www.christian-history.org/death-of-james.html

 

 

 

[Dark_Grey]

17 hours ago, eight bits said:

Also, thanks to @Dark_Grey for the Ehrman-Harris link.

 Hey no problem my dude. It's not super exciting to listen to unless you are interested in early Christianity. If you are, you should get a lot from it. Mr. Ehrman is very knowledgeable but also very thoughtful.

On a personal note, it was that very podcast that reignited my Christian spirit. I was raised in the Baptist faith and took the Bible very seriously. But like many young men, I grew out of it and found more exciting interests in high school. I never looked back until fairly recently when I listened to this podcast. Instead of looking at Christianity as a power house stomping it's way across the world, I see it now as "the little religion that could". It's really pretty amazing that Christianity spread at all when you consider it's humble beginnings.

I believe that the missing years in Jesus life, the undocumented years from young boy to adult, were spent in the far East where he learned esoteric ideas. Jesus has a lot of Buddha-like knowledge to share; "Believe that I am in my Father and my Father in me" - who in the early Jewish faith was talking like that? Jesus often spoke of "becoming one with God" and made other allusions to a universal connection. Imagining this ordinary looking guy wandering around in the rural areas of early Israel, popping minds like champagne bottles with his metaphors about God is endearing to me now. I love that. Jesus was out in the streets showing kindness to beggars and hookers, very much like a brown Buddha with indiscriminate love for whoever needed it. A few cool dudes who dig Jesus concepts and jokes decide to follow him and become his posse of apostles. They spend their days wandering the countryside, getting in to adventures, eating mushrooms and telling people the true meaning of life and the nature of reality. No wonder the Jewish religious class wanted to get rid of him. Jesus was out there telling people to forget the church and connect to God directly. His message is worth spreading because of that.

Like I said, there is really no reason for Christianity to spread like it did. It was relegated to a small, insular group of misfits that could have easily been stamped out by the Jews or the Romans. Whatever happened to Saul that day on the road, whether he had a stroke, a dehydration induced delusion or God almighty actually revealed Himself, it changed the course of history. I practice Christianity-lite now in reverence to that dirty, smelly hippie trying to change the world through love and kindness. What a story..

[Will Due]

19 minutes ago, Dark_Grey said:

Jesus was out there telling people to forget the church and connect to God directly.

 

And that's why in my opinion Christianity flourished in the early days. Still does. Because spirtually, it's easy to discern. That what Jesus taught is to connect directly with God. 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Will Due

[Dark_Grey]

15 minutes ago, Will Due said:

And that's why in my opinion Christianity flourished in the early days. Still does. Because spirtually, it's easy to discern. That what Jesus taught is to connect directly with God. 

The Catholic Church added a roster of middle-men to regulate communication between the people and God. Talk about hijacking a religion

[ellapenella]

On 2/20/2019 at 9:42 AM, eight bits said:

Advocates of Jesus being purely a fictional and mythological character ("mythticists") and those who insist that Jesus was a flesh-and-blood human being ("historicists") often fight about things that are, well, obscure.

There is, however, a small patch of bedrock to the historicist position. Paul wrote that he met "the brother of the Lord," and that he knew of others.

Yeah, those could be interpolations (like everything else more than a few centuries old) and yeah, it is an odd way to say "Jesus' brother" (odd being the way Paul liked to say many things). Nevertheless, unless new evidence surfaces that the phrase really is faked or really means something else, then the historicist position has a secure foundation in evidence, not faith, not "consensus," not arguments from incredulity, authority, popularity, ...

... No, black letters on papyrus, almost old enough to clinch the deal (meh, only 100-200 years later) and now read at face value. One of the faces, anyway.

That's not good for the mythicist position, but how bad is it? Here's a recent look at the problem:

https://uncertaintist.wordpress.com/2019/02/18/brothers-pauls-and-james/

So, what exactly are you looking for? 

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

2 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

The promise of persecution.  Would you like to remind us all of that as well?

You were the one who called @third_eye you enemy. Think about that for a bit before you start writing about being persecuted.

[ellapenella]

1 minute ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

You were the one who called @third_eye you enemy. Think about that for a bit before you start writing about being persecuted.

 I said the enemy of my faith so If you're  lecturing me once again on what Jesus  taught , at least be honest about what he taught . Since you brought it up do you understand why he taught about persecution ? 

[ellapenella]

1 hour ago, Dark_Grey said:

 Hey no problem my dude. It's not super exciting to listen to unless you are interested in early Christianity. If you are, you should get a lot from it. Mr. Ehrman is very knowledgeable but also very thoughtful.

On a personal note, it was that very podcast that reignited my Christian spirit. I was raised in the Baptist faith and took the Bible very seriously. But like many young men, I grew out of it and found more exciting interests in high school. I never looked back until fairly recently when I listened to this podcast. Instead of looking at Christianity as a power house stomping it's way across the world, I see it now as "the little religion that could". It's really pretty amazing that Christianity spread at all when you consider it's humble beginnings.

I believe that the missing years in Jesus life, the undocumented years from young boy to adult, were spent in the far East where he learned esoteric ideas. Jesus has a lot of Buddha-like knowledge to share; "Believe that I am in my Father and my Father in me" - who in the early Jewish faith was talking like that? Jesus often spoke of "becoming one with God" and made other allusions to a universal connection. Imagining this ordinary looking guy wandering around in the rural areas of early Israel, popping minds like champagne bottles with his metaphors about God is endearing to me now. I love that. Jesus was out in the streets showing kindness to beggars and hookers, very much like a brown Buddha with indiscriminate love for whoever needed it. A few cool dudes who dig Jesus concepts and jokes decide to follow him and become his posse of apostles. They spend their days wandering the countryside, getting in to adventures, eating mushrooms and telling people the true meaning of life and the nature of reality. No wonder the Jewish religious class wanted to get rid of him. Jesus was out there telling people to forget the church and connect to God directly. His message is worth spreading because of that.

Like I said, there is really no reason for Christianity to spread like it did. It was relegated to a small, insular group of misfits that could have easily been stamped out by the Jews or the Romans. Whatever happened to Saul that day on the road, whether he had a stroke, a dehydration induced delusion or God almighty actually revealed Himself, it changed the course of history. I practice Christianity-lite now in reverence to that dirty, smelly hippie trying to change the world through love and kindness. What a story..

I wanted to like what you were saying , I do like what you've said in some parts but until you went and said that Jesus [who was certainly Jewish] , you said he was like Buddhist.That's not so. I think that if you can't imagine why he was all knowing, because he was  all knowing , that is understandable not to be able to comprehend it all  but to compare him like that,  is to lower him. John the baptist  was a man  which it is said in the bible that there will not be another like him born ever again. I think that when the understanding hidden in the Scriptures is revealed , it reveals exactly who Jesus is.  

[+DieChecker]

2 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Yes, never read the bible, or any other orthodox literature and so forth, but from what I gather, isn't there a couple that lived for more than a hundred years, and then were 'gifted' a pregnancy? Reason I'm bringing that up, is that maybe there is a paranormal look to this, and that this brother found the fountain of youth.  

 

1 hour ago, eight bits said:

Howdy, Stubbly.

Yes, you're thinking of Abraham and Sarah, who had baby Isaac when they were both of very advanced age.

I think she may be thinking of the story of John the Baptist. His parents were said to be barren, but had a child in their old age. John's mother was the aunt of Mary, I believe, and they were both pregnant at the same time. John, as an adult,  turned into one of the "smelly hippies" and was preaching in the desert and dunking people to absolve sins. He led directly into cousin Jesus's coming out party as a religious teacher and leader.

Edited February 21, 2019 by DieChecker

[Dark_Grey]

34 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

I wanted to like what you were saying , I do like what you've said in some parts but until you went and said that Jesus [who was certainly Jewish] , you said he was like Buddhist.That's not so. I think that if you can't imagine why he was all knowing, because he was  all knowing , that is understandable not to be able to comprehend it all  but to compare him like that,  is to lower him. John the baptist  was a man  which it is said in the bible that there will not be another like him born ever again. I think that when the understanding hidden in the Scriptures is revealed , it reveals exactly who Jesus is.  

I guess it all boils down to how divine you consider Jesus to be. The Son of God, a normal man or something inbetween.

[029b10]

23 hours ago, Dark_Grey said:

It's an interesting story - Saul is walking on the road to Damascus and suddenly is blinded by the spirit of Jesus revealing himself years after his death. How did Paul know what Jesus looked like? Let's not get caught up in silly details.

I liked that part "Let's not get caught up in silly details."  But to answer your question, consider the following:

And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:Acts 9:3

However, later in the book of Acts Paul describes the event as follows: 

At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.  Acts 26:13
 

So how did Paul know what the Invisible light looked like? By the sound of His voice.

Edited February 21, 2019 by 029b10

[Will Due]

50 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

I think that when the understanding hidden in the Scriptures is revealed , it reveals exactly who Jesus is.  

 

What is hidden? What do you mean Ella?