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eight bits

Did Paul report meeting Jesus' brother?

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Ellapennella
10 hours ago, Guyver said:

How could either be accomplished?  It can’t be proven that the Jesus of the Bible actually existed, and if you try to find Jesus now, wouldn’t you just be finding a belief in your own mind inspired by religion?

 I  understand why you think like that.  I understand also why nearly every single Scholar knows that Paul and Jesus  both existed .  

The below shared link is just the guardian but it's a start if one wanted to really dig into it.

Quote

What did non-Christian authors say about Jesus?

As far as we know, the first author outside the church to mention Jesus is the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, who wrote a history of Judaism around AD93. He has two references to Jesus. One of these is controversial because it is thought to be corrupted by Christian scribes (probably turning Josephus’s negative account into a more positive one), but the other is not suspicious – a reference to James, the brother of “Jesus, the so-called Christ”.

About 20 years after Josephus we have the Roman politicians Pliny and Tacitus, who held some of the highest offices of state at the beginning of the second century AD. From Tacitus we learn that Jesus was executed while Pontius Pilate was the Roman prefect in charge of Judaea (AD26-36) and Tiberius was emperor (AD14-37) – reports that fit with the timeframe of the gospels. Pliny contributes the information that, where he was governor in northern Turkey, Christians worshipped Christ as a god. Neither of them liked Christians – Pliny writes of their “pig-headed obstinacy” and Tacitus calls their religion a destructive superstition.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/14/what-is-the-historical-evidence-that-jesus-christ-lived-and-died

 

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Ellapennella
On 2/21/2019 at 8:04 AM, Piney said:

I do. In my eyes the Abrahamic religions have always been a problem. Not a solution.

So, why are you saying Abraham religions?  I'm confused can you clarify this please. Are you calling Jesus a problem? 

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Ellapennella
On 2/21/2019 at 11:28 AM, Doug1o29 said:

One thought:  what if Paul was actually Appolonius of Tyana?

How does that affect this?

Might there be a biblical reference to "Apollo" meaning Appolonius?

Doug

Because he wasn't ,he was who he was.  

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Ellapennella
On 2/21/2019 at 11:58 AM, Dark_Grey said:

:tu: Hey no problem my dude. It's not super exciting to listen to unless you are interested in early Christianity. If you are, you should get a lot from it. Mr. Ehrman is very knowledgeable but also very thoughtful.

On a personal note, it was that very podcast that reignited my Christian spirit. I was raised in the Baptist faith and took the Bible very seriously. But like many young men, I grew out of it and found more exciting interests in high school. I never looked back until fairly recently when I listened to this podcast. Instead of looking at Christianity as a power house stomping it's way across the world, I see it now as "the little religion that could". It's really pretty amazing that Christianity spread at all when you consider it's humble beginnings.

I believe that the missing years in Jesus life, the undocumented years from young boy to adult, were spent in the far East where he learned esoteric ideas. Jesus has a lot of Buddha-like knowledge to share; "Believe that I am in my Father and my Father in me" - who in the early Jewish faith was talking like that? Jesus often spoke of "becoming one with God" and made other allusions to a universal connection. Imagining this ordinary looking guy wandering around in the rural areas of early Israel, popping minds like champagne bottles with his metaphors about God is endearing to me now. I love that. Jesus was out in the streets showing kindness to beggars and hookers, very much like a brown Buddha with indiscriminate love for whoever needed it. A few cool dudes who dig Jesus concepts and jokes decide to follow him and become his posse of apostles. They spend their days wandering the countryside, getting in to adventures, eating mushrooms and telling people the true meaning of life and the nature of reality. No wonder the Jewish religious class wanted to get rid of him. Jesus was out there telling people to forget the church and connect to God directly. His message is worth spreading because of that.

Like I said, there is really no reason for Christianity to spread like it did. It was relegated to a small, insular group of misfits that could have easily been stamped out by the Jews or the Romans. Whatever happened to Saul that day on the road, whether he had a stroke, a dehydration induced delusion or God almighty actually revealed Himself, it changed the course of history. I practice Christianity-lite now in reverence to that dirty, smelly hippie trying to change the world through love and kindness. What a story..

I would  to ask you something do you think that Buddhist  even believe in God as  Jesus did believe, was, and taught?Buddhist  don't even believe in God so why would you even think that way about Jesus?

 

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eight bits
10 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

meh

Fair enough. You asked me; I answered. I asked you; you answered. Kumbaya.

 

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

But 8, Joe was a devout Jew right? From a prominent religious Jewish family right? 

Yes to both. Plus a shot of royalty.

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

During the time Jesus taught the gospel of the kingdom and certainly immediately following his crucifixion, amongst the upper strata of the families who controlled the rulership of the Jewish religion, there was a high degree of need to dismiss all things Jesus, was there not? Even today it still goes on.

Cuppla things, though. The main one being that Josephus is writing after the Temple is gone. He has no need to dismiss anything; the game's over, he personally was a big winner, his peers, not so much.

Josephus has no problem writing about John the Baptist, even though Josephus apparently agrees with the Gospel writers (usually dated as his contemporaries, maybe John the Evangelist wrote just a little bit later) that the Baptist was offering direct access to God's forgiveness outside the Temple pay-to-play sacrificial system. It's a pretty friendly write-up, and Josephus volunteers that ordinary people were still talking about John years after he'd been killed, and that that killing was both unjust and later avenged by God.

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

And certainly not talk about with their children.

Strange strategy if Jesus' followers are still active in Jerusalem, the very belly of the beast. "Their children" are the next generation of Jewish Temple leaders, Temple leadership clearly being based on family lineage in those days. If there had recently been a "Jesus problem," the problem hadn't gone away when Josephus was growing up. I think that Josephus' father and uncles, etc. certainly did talk with him about the continuing problems of being a Jewish religious leader.

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third_eye

The sword , the scepter and the star ... then the temple came tumbling down,  some blamed the JC movement, some said never mind, it wasn't really Solomon's but Herod's ... meh

~

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Piney
54 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

So, why are you saying Abraham religions?  I'm confused can you clarify this please. Are you calling Jesus a problem? 

Christianity and Islam has always been a problem. They need to be wiped out. Then the Jews will go back to minding their own business. :)

 

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Will Due
1 hour ago, eight bits said:

If there had recently been a "Jesus problem," the problem hadn't gone away when Josephus was growing up.

 

I agree. But the problem still hasn't gone away. That's because the problem isn't with Jesus.

The problem is with the people who hang onto erroneous ideas about God. And even Christians do this.

In a sense this was an embarrassing situation for Josephus's people. His family. The families of his friends and associates. Jesus was embarrassing to their beliefs, to their religion, to their livelihood. His life and teachings were a threat. Still is. A threat to those who preach that there needs to be an intermediary between man and God. Things like priests. Things like animal sacrifice. Things like human sacrifice. Things like a Jewish Messiah who dies for everyone. Things like acceptance of ecclesiastical direction and authority. Things like the supposed authority of ancient books. Any books.

Anything that does NOT support a direct connection with God. That there really is a direct connection, and the responsibility for it is on us and no one else. Not even Jesus.

 

And these things that Jesus revealed were not taught in those days to the children of the people who didn't decide to follow him. Especially those who were of Jewish royal blood. Such as Josephus. 

 

All in my opinion of course. ;)

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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eight bits
4 hours ago, Will Due said:

A threat to those who preach that there needs to be an intermediary between man and God.

The majority of living Christians belong to versions of Christianity that are "apostolic succession" churches. That is, they have a priesthood and an episcopate, plus some kind of international communion network. They all believe they're right with Jesus' teachings. Perhaps the Urantia Book sides with Protestants outside the apostolic succession about what Paul taught (he at least wrote some of it down - God only knows what Jesus taught isn't just an expression), but it's not so clear that Paul did teach against intermediaries. His churches had functional distinctions rather than rank or time-in-grade structure, but not all functions were equal, either. It's also not so clear that a congregant could "do without" batpism and eucharistic celebrations, both of which require church intermediation.

I am not minimizing the advance from human sacrifice to animal sacrifice (something Romans and Jews were both very insistent upon), and then in Christianity from animal to vegetable sacrifice. Nevertheless, there're plenty of employment opportunities within a vegetable sacrifice regime. Josephus would feel right at home in the Vatican or the Archbishop of Canterbury's palace.

4 hours ago, Will Due said:

And these things that Jesus revealed were not taught in those days to the children of the people who didn't decide to follow him. Especially those who were of Jewish royal blood. Such as Josephus. 

I think you're mixing up two different things: being an initiate of a Jesus-centered cult and being aware of the activities of such cults, if those cults really loomed large in the late Second Temple period Jerusalem religious scene. Of course Josephus' family didn't initiate him into Christianity. lol. But if Christianity were in any way bad for the family business, then of course Josephus' family would share helpful hints about how to deal with the likes of Jesus.

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Habitat
9 hours ago, eight bits said:

We're down to the paradox that in order for Jesus really to have done anything at all, he couldn't have done very much.

Or put it another way, you are saying that if Jesus was responsible for any supernatural happenings, they did not amount to much. Which is a strange statement, because to my mind, any such happenings would make the case for him being a "vessel" of the Divine. It was the way you put it, that made me wonder what you were on about . It certainly can't be established that he wasn't responsible for any supernatural manifestations. But, without focussing on the supernatural, is it not the case that historical writings of the time contain very little in the way of allusions to him at all ? I can see that what Will is saying, could be the case, and it is obvious no-one would want to start openly singing the praises of someone that had been executed for crimes against the State, for fear of inviting a similar fate. Roman occupation wasn't something that would have tolerated the lionizing of people the state had deemed treacherous, and executed. I guess if you were a prominent Jew, and started giving air-play to the life and supposed deeds of JC, you would expose yourself to the double whammy, from the Jewish hierarchy, and the oppressive state machinery. That would be a potent deterrent. Still, I can see that a man who was later elevated to the status he still has, with many, ought to have been mentioned more, in what remains of the writings of the time, because there will always be those that take the risk of ignoring those dangers. For all I know, the pre-scientific mindset of the time might not have had the fascination with the supernatural, that exists today, to anything like the same extent, it might have been regarded as nothing extraordinary, or not something that was practically useful to wonder about, in which case, what else would there be to talk about, regarding Jesus ? He had no political power, ever, and under the Romans, political ( through military power) power was the central fact of life.

Edited by Habitat
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Piney
10 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

Buddhist  don't even believe in God

More astonding ignorance.

Tendai and Shingon, like Algonquians are pan-theistic and believe in a "Living Universe" which is "God". The Chinese call it ( not "him") Tian "The Heavens". The Kipchak Turk "Tengri"

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Ellapennella
19 hours ago, eight bits said:

Fair enough. You asked me; I answered. I asked you; you answered. Kumbaya.

 

So what is it that you're really looking for?  Paul's life and Jesus both are recorded by politicians from that time. 

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Ellapennella
9 hours ago, Piney said:

More astonding ignorance.

Tendai and Shingon, like Algonquians are pan-theistic and believe in a "Living Universe" which is "God". The Chinese call it ( not "him") Tian "The Heavens". The Kipchak Turk "Tengri"

#1 The universe is not God it is a creation of God. [ even a child could understand and see some difference in why Jesus was not and never could be a Buddhist monk.] 

#2   Buddhist do not believe in the Eternal God Creator , Jesus does.

#3 Buddhist teach that all life is suffering. Jesus taught that all life was for the glory of God.

#4 Core goal  of Buddhism is to die and never to be no more.

I understand Buddhism and as a Christian I reject it.

#5 Buddhist also teach that  the birth cycle happens to fix past mistakes . Jesus never taught that about why we are born. In fact Jesus taught that the sins do not pass down as superstition teaching said they have. I would refer you back to #3 of what he said about that.

So, if individuals as taught by Buddhist are born in some cycle of reincarnate what do they make of an individuals   first birth?  what mistake were they born for if they had not been born before? 

There is so much that can be shared in why Jesus was never a Buddhist monk . I think that the years people are talking about are the years the bible mentions where he was working with Joseph and his time had not come yet because he knew that when it did there would be no turning back on his mission. Jesus was with his family those early teenage years working.

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Ellapennella
19 hours ago, Piney said:

Christianity and Islam has always been a problem. They need to be wiped out. Then the Jews will go back to minding their own business. :)

 

That is truly ignorant. 

If you want to compare the past with the present ,compare it logically.  Your post is an example of what  ignorance sounds like.

The Jewish people have been persecuted throughout their entire existence, they can not stand idly  by, ever. 

Christians and Jews both were being wiped out because of their faith. Islamist were utilized by the Romans to do the killing. The Islamist wanted to go further into Europe and hence the Crusades were forced to happen.

You sound to me like you don't understand history, liberty, GOD ,  and freedom. Live and let live.

Would you side with all that is wrong in the wrong if it would wipe out Christians , Muslims,  and Jews? 

 

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third_eye

Strauss- Salome Final Scene Catherine Malfitano, Salome
 

Quote

 

~

 

~

[00.05:59]

 

 

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eight bits
1 hour ago, Ellapennella said:

So what is it that you're really looking for?  Paul's life and Jesus both are recorded by politicians from that time. 

Is there something about discussion that requires explanation? On a discussion board, which is what UM is?

Politicians? Well I suppose Josephus, Pliny and Tacitus might answer to that.  A day late and a dollar short for Jesus; whom do you have in mind for Paul?

 

 

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danydandan
21 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Is there something about discussion that requires explanation? On a discussion board, which is what UM is?

Politicians? Well I suppose Josephus, Pliny and Tacitus might answer to that.  A day late and a dollar short for Jesus; whom do you have in mind for Paul?

 

 

Not mention, can we be sure of the validity of the documents?

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Ellapennella
26 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Is there something about discussion that requires explanation? On a discussion board, which is what UM is?

Politicians? Well I suppose Josephus, Pliny and Tacitus might answer to that.  A day late and a dollar short for Jesus; whom do you have in mind for Paul?

 

 

It requires an understanding. So what are you looking for in regards to Paul's life, there is historical documentation . I also asked you if you were wanting to prove or disprove Jesus and by the attitude you have I think it's the later. Don't you mainly posts threads that pertain to things like demonology, that sort of stuff ,are you into that sort of stuff?

 

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Ellapennella
8 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Not mention, can we be sure of the validity of the documents?

That's on you if you reject Jesus,it's on you. No one is forcing you to accept the truth.

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Ellapennella
1 hour ago, third_eye said:

Strauss- Salome Final Scene Catherine Malfitano, Salome
 

 

 

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Piney
1 hour ago, Ellapennella said:

Would you side with all that is wrong in the wrong if it would wipe out Christians , Muslims,  and Jews? 

I don't have a problem with the Jews. They didn't try to convert or kill Native Americans and Buddhists.

3 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

That's on you if you reject Jesus,it's on you. No one is forcing you to accept the truth.

:lol:

1 hour ago, Ellapennella said:

Christians and Jews both were being wiped out because of their faith

Christians tried to wipe out my people. Then they tried to wipe out our language and culture. My grandfather was forced into a Christian Residential School where they tried to beat his language and beliefs from him. 

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Piney
1 hour ago, Ellapennella said:

You sound to me like you don't understand history, liberty, GOD ,  and freedom. Live and let live.

Is that why my people and other indigenous tribes are still being hassled by missionaries? :rolleyes:

Your country was built on part of the graveyard of the greatest genocide in recorded history. Do you understand that part of history? A White American telling a American Indian about liberty and freedom is a very funny joke. :lol:

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Jodie.Lynne
18 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

That's on you if you reject Jesus, it's on you. No one is forcing you to accept the truth.

Ah yes, the classic fall back position of "I'm right, you're wrong"

Not to mention the slight, implied threat involved if one doesn't accept the tale. The part I bolded. Along with the denial that any coercion or threat of punishment is involved.

 

The funny thing that I have noticed about many believers, not all, but many, is that they are so adamant that their way is the only way, and believers in other paths are flat out wrong. Why is that?

 

I'm not condemning or attempting to refute anyone's faith, just confused by all the hubbub.

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Piney
2 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

Christians and Jews both were being wiped out because of their faith. Islamist were utilized by the Romans to do the killing. The Islamist wanted to go further into Europe and hence the Crusades were forced to happen.

Are you familiar with the fact that the Greco-Bactrians brought Buddhism to Rome and Athanasius, the Bishop of Alexandria burned all the writings?

Or that 3 Roman Emperors helped wipe out the pagans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_pagans_in_the_late_Roman_Empire

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Piney
2 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

#1 The universe is not God it is a creation of God. [ even a child could understand and see some difference in why Jesus was not and never could be a Buddhist monk.] 

Never said he was. As for your other point. Did Jesus tell you this? 

As for your other points there is many different kinds of Buddhism. Not all of them believe many of these concepts. In Tendai we do not teach life is suffering. As for the core goal it is to join the Living Universe. Be part of "God" Not to be non-existent. 

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