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Mysticism Help Needed


Duke Wellington

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In my opinion we have everything backwards in life. In Abrahamic mysticism there are four levels of being - receiving, giving to receive, receiving to give, and giving.

According to its mystical traditions receiving is the lowest form of being and is basically only being interested in oneself. The highest form of being is giving and is supposed to be something impossible for a human to achieve because our egos prevent it. But there are techniques for receiving to give which can be successfully applied. And I wonder if there are any for purely giving?

For me I was born into a low socio-economic family who were quite selfish and self-centred. They were your stereotypical socialism supporting council estate family thinking they were entitled to everything in life as their birth right. And when they didnt receive it they blamed the rich and successful for being corrupt and cheating them out of it.

One day I kind of realised they were only interested in receiving and had a lot of hate towards the world when they failed to receive. I outgrew them and came to realise receiving to give is far superior. Now I am highly successful in life. I realised that socialism is the lowest form of being and to elevate oneself then we have to become capitalists.

In capitalism we receive money to give products and services back (receiving to give). I gained some unusual insights that the whole of society and the universe is setup to punish receivers, but those who receive to give climb far higher. Its like Abrahamic mysticism runs through the very essence of everything from the economy to even interpersonal relationships. 

What I dont understand is giving. I dont understand how simply giving could elevate me even higher? The only forms of giving I can think off is going out of my way to do something for something else with nothing in return. And giving products and services, and money, for free. But with all of them I dont understand how it leads to be climbing even higher. Does anybody else have giving insights that lead to climbing even higher?

Is it about becoming a politician and giving people the policies that they want? (Instead of myself).

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You seem obsessed with climbing!

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To give without the expectation of receiving anything in return is to renounce the supposed separation of the giver and the receiver. It is to regard others as fellow-beings, as worthy of receiving as we are, ourselves.

If all gave freely, there would be no inequity in the world. All needs would be met. We would transcend the 'law of the jungle', and the motive of personal gain, and achieve something higher. 

Humanity is apt to have to work quite some time yet, before it accomplishes that goal. Every action of giving without expectation is a step in that direction. 

Edited by bison
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15 minutes ago, bison said:

To give without the expectation of receiving anything in return is to renounce the supposed separation of the giver and the receiver. It is to regard others as fellow-beings, as worthy of receiving as we are, ourselves. If all gave freely, there would be no inequity in the world. All needs would be met. We would transcend the 'law of the jungle', and the motive of personal gain, and achieve something higher.  

From a practical viewpoint I can see that people give to their children without condition (if they are normal loving parents). So I kind of guess thats why reproduction exists from a religious perspective. Some people also give freely to friends. So are those the only forms of giving open to ordinary people?

I supposed some people might join the army to give to their country, or some other roles where they can serve other people. To me the most giving possible which I can think of is to become a politician. It allows one to give to large numbers of people.

How on earth could someone give to the entire universe? Is that even possible?

Edited by RabidMongoose
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If a prospective politician had the aim of being a true public servant, and did not advance himself, or herself,  by attacking others seeking the same office, this could be a form a giving. If there is a spiritual unity in the universe, as I believe, then any giving action is, in effect, giving to the whole universe. If the action doesn't seem to be appreciated locally, it presumably is on a higher level, even when this is not apparent. 

 

 

 

 

 

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Well being unbound by the distraction of that object and thus the material concerns.  Though that said those people that are a thing often have the trappings of that thing ie astronomers have telescopes.  Don't get rid of the tools of your path, whatever it may be is my thought.

Rather than giving away all your stuff maybe try some sort of physical / mental exhaustion.  Mysticism often has traditions of this, The sun ritual, sweat lodges.  I have done some branding which didn't have much of an effect other than clarity.  Wandering around all over a hillside until my fat ass was exhausted worked better. 

But if you are getting rid of Atari cartridges I'll take em.

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Giving does not work without the receiving, a receiving cannot happen without a giving. The divine gift that when given, when is received, is eternal, there is nothing from or to, it is just the gift of constant giving and receiving.

What is to be, what is have been, what is being, is as 'one' , breathing in and out as existence, becomes the living breath, not merely a life still breathing

~

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O son of Kunti, all that you do, all that you eat, all that you offer and give away, as well as all austerities that you may perform, should be done as an offering unto Me.
In this way you will be freed from all reactions to good and evil deeds, and by this principle of renunciation you will be liberated and come to Me.
Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me.'

Therefore, always perform your duty efficiently and without attachment to the results,because by doing work without attachment one attains the Supreme.

O Arjuna, there is nothing in the three worlds that should be done by Me, nor there is anything unobtained
that I should obtain, yet I engage in action.
All works are being done by the Gunas of nature, but due to delusion of ego people assume themselves to be the doer.
Dedicating all works to Me in a spiritual frame of mind, free from desire, attachment, and mental grief, do your duty.

Bhagavat Gita, Chapter 9 and chapter 3

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10 hours ago, Coil said:

O son of Kunti, all that you do, all that you eat, all that you offer and give away, as well as all austerities that you may perform, should be done as an offering unto Me.
In this way you will be freed from all reactions to good and evil deeds, and by this principle of renunciation you will be liberated and come to Me.
Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me.'

Therefore, always perform your duty efficiently and without attachment to the results,because by doing work without attachment one attains the Supreme.

O Arjuna, there is nothing in the three worlds that should be done by Me, nor there is anything unobtained
that I should obtain, yet I engage in action.
All works are being done by the Gunas of nature, but due to delusion of ego people assume themselves to be the doer.
Dedicating all works to Me in a spiritual frame of mind, free from desire, attachment, and mental grief, do your duty.

Bhagavat Gita, Chapter 9 and chapter 3

Thats not giving though, its receiving to give.

So what about the fourth state? The state of pure giving? There is no screen to use to do that which I can find anywhere so whats the technique?

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13 hours ago, Coil said:

O son of Kunti, all that you do, all that you eat, all that you offer and give away, as well as all austerities that you may perform, should be done as an offering unto Me.
In this way you will be freed from all reactions to good and evil deeds, and by this principle of renunciation you will be liberated and come to Me.
Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me.'

Therefore, always perform your duty efficiently and without attachment to the results,because by doing work without attachment one attains the Supreme.

O Arjuna, there is nothing in the three worlds that should be done by Me, nor there is anything unobtained
that I should obtain, yet I engage in action.
All works are being done by the Gunas of nature, but due to delusion of ego people assume themselves to be the doer.
Dedicating all works to Me in a spiritual frame of mind, free from desire, attachment, and mental grief, do your duty.

Bhagavat Gita, Chapter 9 and chapter 3

 

2 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

Thats not giving though, its receiving to give.

So what about the fourth state? The state of pure giving? There is no screen to use to do that which I can find anywhere so whats the technique?

I wonder why you interpret that extract from the Bhagavad Gita as ' receiving to give'? And surely the state of pure giving is the easiest to understand(if not always the easiest to perform). IMHO, if you need to ask for a technique you have misunderstood the action.

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14 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

Thats not giving though, its receiving to give.

So what about the fourth state? The state of pure giving? There is no screen to use to do that which I can find anywhere so whats the technique?

I understand that true action is disinterested action as an offering to God of the results of labor and our thoughts, which becomes a real giving.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/20/2019 at 4:20 PM, RabidMongoose said:

supposed some people might join the army to give to their country, or some other roles where they can serve other people. To me the most giving possible which I can think of is to become a politician. It allows one to give to large numbers of people

Hi Rabidmongoose

Are politicians your messengers from god if so then there is not much point in a discussion here as politicians are mortal men. I have no gods men or otherwise

jmccr8

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On 2/20/2019 at 4:20 PM, RabidMongoose said:

I supposed some people might join the army to give to their country, or some other roles where they can serve other people. To me the most giving possible which I can think of is to become a politician. It allows one to give to large numbers of peopl

Supposing is different than reality. Let's suppose you gave a sheet about your fellow man for a minute but wouldn't give your life for them, should I trust you/

jmccr8

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  • 1 month later...
On 2/20/2019 at 4:20 PM, RabidMongoose said:

From a practical viewpoint I can see that people give to their children without condition (if they are normal loving parents). So I kind of guess thats why reproduction exists from a religious perspective. Some people also give freely to friends. So are those the only forms of giving open to ordinary people?

I supposed some people might join the army to give to their country, or some other roles where they can serve other people. To me the most giving possible which I can think of is to become a politician. It allows one to give to large numbers of people.

How on earth could someone give to the entire universe? Is that even possible?

You must not be in the U.S. if you think politicians give anything to anyone.

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On 2/20/2019 at 7:48 PM, Goddess of the Mist said:

There are other things that can be given (other than material things).  For instance, you can give someone a compliment - or a smile.  Something so small can have the effect to turn someone's whole day around.  In turn, they can be a better person to those around them.  When you do something like that, it all gets passed down the line.  I don't think it has to be complicated or extravagant.  

Time and attention are easy things to give also.

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14 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

You must not be in the U.S. if you think politicians give anything to anyone.

Stop the negativity towards politicians.

The US is the greatest nation on earth because it has Gods favour.

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1 minute ago, RabidMongoose said:

Stop the negativity towards politicians.

The US is the greatest nation on earth because it has Gods favour.

How did that happen ?

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1 minute ago, Habitat said:

How did that happen ?

By giving its people the most freedom.

It means people can receive to give more.

Edited by RabidMongoose
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On 2/21/2019 at 2:44 PM, RabidMongoose said:

Thats not giving though, its receiving to give.

So what about the fourth state? The state of pure giving? There is no screen to use to do that which I can find anywhere so whats the technique?

 

4 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

By giving its people the most freedom.

It means people can receive to give more.

Is receiving to give a virtue or not?  Is it giving or not?  Are you saying the government is virtuous in its giving, but the people aren't because they "receive to give" and therefore are not giving?

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@ RabidMongoose: what happened to you? You used to post really good stuff but now you've entirely 'lost the plot'. I'm wondering if someone has hijacked your password here.

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30 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

@ RabidMongoose: what happened to you? You used to post really good stuff but now you've entirely 'lost the plot'. I'm wondering if someone has hijacked your password here.

People change. Life, themselves, something, things change us. 

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1 hour ago, The Wistman said:

Is receiving to give a virtue or not?  Is it giving or not?  Are you saying the government is virtuous in its giving, but the people aren't because they "receive to give" and therefore are not giving?

Morality is not defined by the individual or society but by God.

Our job is to receive all the pleasures that God sends us while doing so to give God pleasure back. That is the highest morality capable for a human being - receiving please to give pleasure

The leaders of a society have more freedom, money, power, and influence, to engage in receiving pleasure to give pleasure.

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What gives around here?

To give one must have.

To have one must receive.

And around we go.... just who has and who gives? God only has to give, as he gave us our universe out of nothing he got from us. He who has nothing has nothing to give. And he who receives nothing has nothing to give.

I have nothing, since I'm not God, therefore I have nothing to give. And if you receive from me you receive nothing, because there is nothing to say about this topic, except it's nothing that we should concern ourselves with, since we all came into this world created from nothing with nothing, and will leave this nothing as we came, with nothing. Nothing worth having, that is....a body out of nothing for nothing.

Who gives a ,,,, about nothing?

By the way, what is nothing, philosophically speaking? If God is supposed to have given us life out of nothing, then before determining this give and receive stuff, we need a better understanding of "Nothing." And if this universe was always here, then no one gave us anything. Being and non-being, where being is anything except nothing, and non-being is nothing, except anything. Nothing is not anything worth giving nor having.

Heidegger: Being-There (or Nothing)

German philosopher Martin Heidegger employed the methods of phenomenology in pursuit of more comprehensive metaphysical goals. In Heidegger's full-fledged existentialism, the primary task of philosophy is to understand Being itself, not merely our knowledge of it.

http://www.philosophypages.com/hy/7b.htm

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Tiresome is this give and take without the right mystic to explain it. Here we have many that are the wandbearers but few are the mystics.

The philosopher desires death–which the wicked world will insinuate that he also deserves: and perhaps he does, but not in any sense which they are capable of understanding. Enough of them: the real question is, What is the nature of that death which he desires? Death is the separation of soul and body–and the philosopher desires such a separation. He would like to be freed from the dominion of bodily pleasures and of the senses, which are always perturbing his mental vision. He wants to get rid of eyes and ears, and with the light of the mind only to behold the light of truth. All the evils and impurities and necessities of men come from the body. And death separates him from these corruptions, which in life he cannot wholly lay aside. Why then should he repine when the hour of separation arrives? Why, if he is dead while he lives, should he fear that other death, through which alone he can behold wisdom in her purity? Besides, the philosopher has notions of good and evil unlike those of other men. For they are courageous because they are afraid of greater dangers, and temperate because they desire greater pleasures. But he disdains this balancing of pleasures and pains, which is the exchange of commerce and not of virtue. All the virtues, including wisdom, are regarded by him only as purifications of the soul. And this was the meaning of the founders of the mysteries when they said, ’Many are the wandbearers but few are the mystics.

Socrates.

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