Communism , Totalitarianism & Atheism

[Piney]

3 minutes ago, Habitat said:

That is just part of the PC push. If you like walking on eggshells. I think it is far better for people not to look for, and react emotionally, to the offence that might be implicit in words or questions, but cultivate clever deflections, better still witty and clever deflections. If I think someone is being nosey, I usually quip " I can't be telling you all my business ", or the like.

There was a game in the hoods and on the reserves called 'The Dozens" where you tried to be more insulting and greasy. One of the reasons I love helping my friend at his store in the hood is PC is right out the window and we are greasy and racist as **** to each other. 

Words only seem to hurt the "civilized". 

 

[Golden Duck]

2 minutes ago, Habitat said:

That is just part of the PC push. If you like walking on eggshells. I think it is far better for people not to look for, and react emotionally, to the offence that might be implicit in words or questions, but cultivate clever deflections, better still witty and clever deflections. If I think someone is being nosey, I usually quip " I can't be telling you all my business ", or the like.

In a similar vein I can get on the front foot and expose the to the dirty laundry.  I went to Jamaica a few years ago. I could say "don't blush baby" and get a laugh every time.

But, the Hicklin Test, for obscenity, predates the PC movement.  If you can apply it, or it's successors, you can see that standards outside ego need to be considered. There was never, nor will there ever be, a Kangaroo-gate; but, monkey is, for better or worse, a different matter. FWIW, the midwife called my daughter a monkey when she pulled her mum's hair within minutes of birth. The context is, of course, different; and, test of reasonableness takes that into account.

This is the main problem with the PC movement - context is ignored. It's unreasonable. However, the reality is it's here.

Ultimately, the attitude of 'what's good for me is good for everyone' is not good enough.

[Golden Duck]

19 minutes ago, Piney said:

There was a game in the hoods and on the reserves called 'The Dozens" where you tried to be more insulting and greasy. One of the reasons I love helping my friend at his store in the hood is PC is right out the window and we are greasy and racist as **** to each other. 

Words only seem to hurt the "civilized". 

 

This is the natural kind of irreverence that gets stifled here by PC.

Politeness is for strangers. If I don't insult ya, I don't rate ya!

[Habitat]

2 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

This is the natural kind of irreverence that gets stifled here by PC.

Politeness is for strangers. If I don't insult ya, I don't rate ya!

One should err on the side of conservatism when talking to strangers, for sure. Even for your own welfare.

[eight bits]

Well, it can be messy to get between the goldens, but there do seem to be a few problems with the platinum rule as rule, at least as compared to the typical golden rule.

First, how would I generally know how somebody else wishes to be treated? The example in the article, being asked where you're from by an American immigration officer after having presented a valid US passport? It's happened to me. I'm whiter than Elizabeth Warren. It didn't bother me at the time, and it doesn't bother me now in retrospect. I am not telling anybody else how they should feel, but with that comes my suggestion that they ought not to require me to guess how they might feel.

- Somebody asked me where I'm from! On American soil!

- Gee, that's horrific. Life must be great, though, if that's one of your biggest problems.

Second, what if I don't agree that the person should be treated in a way that I don't aspire to myself, and wouldn't be treated that way myself? Under the platinum rule, it would be permissible for the border officer to ask me where I'm from, but not to ask the author of the article. Why am I less protected under a government founded on the principle of equal protection under the law? What question does the border officer get to ask, for the purpose of verifying that the person and the passport belong together, otherwise known as her job?

I suppose you could propound a "diamond rule," do nothing to another that would be unwelcome by somebody, but that can be shortened to do nothing, full stop. That seems impractical somehow.

 

[Golden Duck]

38 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Well, it can be messy to get between the goldens, but there do seem to be a few problems with the platinum rule as rule, at least as compared to the typical golden rule.

First, how would I generally know how somebody else wishes to be treated? The example in the article, being asked where you're from by an American immigration officer after having presented a valid US passport? It's happened to me. I'm whiter than Elizabeth Warren. It didn't bother me at the time, and it doesn't bother me now in retrospect. I am not telling anybody else how they should feel, but with that comes my suggestion that they ought not to require me to guess how they might feel.

- Somebody asked me where I'm from! On American soil!

- Gee, that's horrific. Life must be great, though, if that's one of your biggest problems.

Second, what if I don't agree that the person should be treated in a way that I don't aspire to myself, and wouldn't be treated that way myself? Under the platinum rule, it would be permissible for the border officer to ask me where I'm from, but not to ask the author of the article. Why am I less protected under a government founded on the principle of equal protection under the law? What question does the border officer get to ask, for the purpose of verifying that the person and the passport belong together, otherwise known as her job?

I suppose you could propound a "diamond rule," do nothing to another that would be unwelcome by somebody, but that can be shortened to do nothing, full stop. That seems impractical somehow.

1

Eider thought nothing too heated was going down between us.

Like I said earlier the question of morality is largely codified; and, I would say most action is motivated by risk of penalty.  How does one apply a moral compass to most parking spaces?  For the most part the option of exercising either the Golden or Platinum Rules is taken away from us.

Granted, the grievance for microaggressions does appear to be frivolous.  In truth, the officer has limited flexibility in his duties.  Personally, when I pass through the Customs, I try to behave how the authorities want me to behave.

In Australia, we have 18C legislation enacted under the Racial Hatred Act. There is some allowance for specific purposes; but, a standard formed under the Golden Rule is not a protection.  The test if an act of this law is more harmonious with the Platinum Rule.

If you're insomnia hadn't yet been treated, I will further venture that it is commonplace in HR policy and the consultants have suggestions to resolve the issues you raise.

Quote

The Golden Rule, as admirable as it is, no longer suffices in the 21st-century workplace. Why? Because it is inherently self-referential, presuming that everyone wants to be treated the same way—the way we do. For young children, this rule works for a while at least because most have similar desires: Don’t take my toys, my candy, my turn, and I won’t take yours.

But it’s trickier for adults. In a diverse workplace, the way in which someone else wants to be treated could be far different from the way in which we do. Today, it’s no longer about us. If we are to show genuine respect for our co-workers, we need to employ what’s known as the “Platinum Rule.” This means treating others as they wish to be treated.

...

In other areas, our co-workers may want things that are not necessarily intuitive for us. In such cases, we can take these steps to create a respectful workplace:

• We need to challenge our own possible biases around age, gender, ethnicities, backgrounds, and physical abilities and not impose them on others.
• We need to steer clear of making assumptions about others’ goals, interests, values, limitations, relationships, and the pronouns they prefer.
• When in doubt about any of these, we need to respectfully and without a hint of judgment ask about others’ preferences and abide by them.

 

https://playbook.amanet.org/training-articles-respectful-workplace/

Whatever, flaws may exist in the Platinum Rule it improves on the Golden Rule and simply can't be labelled narcissistic.

[Rlyeh]

14 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I think RavenHawks point is that we are slow learners and that god never liked slavery, he was giving us with free will time to understand his lessons.  That would explain his view I think.

Good thing we've got RavenHawk to tell us what God really likes, none of the other Biblical authors thought to write it down.

[eight bits]

2 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

Granted, the grievance for microaggressions does appear to be frivolous. 

As follows from the very term microagression. Minor annoyances, from human sources and otherwise, are part of life. At some point, expecting everybody else to police their behavior 24/7/365 in order to smooth one's own way through the world becomes indistinguishable from narcissism.

My remark about the diamond rule was not casual. To implement what may be pitched as a platinum rule requires knowledge that is not given to mortals and assent to demands that free people may reasonably resist. Therefore, the closest thing to it that can be enforced with due process is the diamond rule. Since the diamond rule is impractical if uniformly enforced, it will be enforced selectively.

Australians may do as they please, of course. The article suggested imposition of this rule on Americans. I am an American libertarian. I will resist.

 

Edited March 17, 2019 by eight bits

[Doug1029]

20 hours ago, Piney said:

Nag Hammadi. I was forced to read it as a teen. Then sent to listen to Elaine Pagels. 

The Gospel of Nicodemus (3rd century) is another.  It's actually quite good.  Reads like a transcript of Jesus' trial.

Doug

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Doug1o29 said:

The Gospel of Nicodemus (3rd century) is another.  It's actually quite good.  Reads like a transcript of Jesus' trial.

Doug

I read that too along with Thomas. My aunt Emma made me read EVERYTHING, 

[Doug1029]

18 hours ago, Piney said:

I read that too along with Thomas. My aunt Emma made me read EVERYTHING, 

At least you're educated.

It is good reading, but really belongs in the fiction section.

Doug

[Piney]

4 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

At least you're educated.

It is good reading, but really belongs in the fiction section.

Doug

My Aunt Emma was a Nontheistic Quaker Theologian. A student and friend of Henry Cadbury. Pretty famous in Princeton and Philadelphia actually. Emma Peaslee Engle. She put pretty much everything in the fiction section except Maccabees.

Her best known quote is "Science, history and religion must agree. When science and history doesn't agree with religion that aspect of religion is nonsense and nonsense has no place in a Quaker Meeting".

[Doug1029]

Just now, Piney said:

My Aunt Emma was a Nontheistic Quaker Theologian. A student and friend of Henry Cadbury. Pretty famous in Princeton and Philadelphia actually. Emma Peaslee Engle. She put pretty much everything in the fiction section except Maccabees.

Her best known quote is "Science, history and religion must agree. When science and history doesn't agree with religion that aspect of religion is nonsense and nonsense has no place in a Quaker Meeting".

Think I'd like your Aunt Emma.  Been to lots of Quaker meetings and a couple of sweat lodges.

Doug

[Piney]

2 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

Think I'd like your Aunt Emma.  Been to lots of Quaker meetings and a couple of sweat lodges.

Doug

My father was Indian but my mother was the product of a arranged marriage between the Old Line Philadephia and Yorkshire Quaker aristocracy. My people only use sweatlodges for healing. We don't hold "public" ones. I have my own. 

Being "Old Line" and old school I don't do Evangelical or Programmed Meetings nor do I agree with them. But I do visit a Native Meeting in Oklahoma. I use to always make it a point to stop in Pawhuska and visit the Osage Friends Meeting. 

[danydandan]

9 minutes ago, Piney said:

My father was Indian but my mother was the product of a arranged marriage between the Old Line Philadephia and Yorkshire Quaker aristocracy. My people only use sweatlodges for healing. We don't hold "public" ones. I have my own. 

Being "Old Line" and old school I don't do Evangelical or Programmed Meetings nor do I agree with them. But I do visit a Native Meeting in Oklahoma. I use to always make it a point to stop in Pawhuska and visit the Osage Friends Meeting. 

Forgive my ignorance, but may I ask what a sweat lodge is? 

Is it like a suana?

[Piney]

9 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Forgive my ignorance, but may I ask what a sweat lodge is? 

Is it like a suana?

Pretty much. 

[danydandan]

2 minutes ago, Piney said:

Pretty much. 

Sounds nice. 

We have the immersion here in Ireland.

Edited March 18, 2019 by danydandan

[Doug1029]

14 minutes ago, Piney said:

My father was Indian but my mother was the product of a arranged marriage between the Old Line Philadephia and Yorkshire Quaker aristocracy. My people only use sweatlodges for healing. We don't hold "public" ones. I have my own. 

Being "Old Line" and old school I don't do Evangelical or Programmed Meetings nor do I agree with them. But I do visit a Native Meeting in Oklahoma. I use to always make it a point to stop in Pawhuska and visit the Osage Friends Meeting. 

The two sweat lodges I went to were held by Arapahoes.  The leader/organizer was also a Methodist minister.  It all resembled a Protestant church service, except for praying to Grandfather and the preceding purification with sagebrush smoke.

Osage Friends Meeting in Pawhuska.  I'll have to look them up.  Thanks for the lead.

 

7 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Forgive my ignorance, but may I ask what a sweat lodge is? 

Is it like a suana?

Yes.  But it is sacred.  No glasses allowed - you want to engage the spirit directly if it appears.  Metal things like rings can get hot and burn, so you take them off.

There is a brief purification ceremony before the sweat lodge.  In the two I attended sagebrush leaves were spread on hot rocks and participants inhaled the smoke.  Then we went into the sweat lodge where the leader offered a prayer to Grandfather.  We then waited on the spirit.  Toward the end we offered prayers and asked for help with our lives.  Then another prayer and it ended.

There's some reason to believe that the sweat lodge was introduced in North America by Vikings and that its use spread to many native tribes.

Doug

 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

On 3/16/2019 at 7:33 PM, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

On 3/16/2019 at 3:57 PM, Tatetopa said:

I think RavenHawks point is that we are slow learners and that god never liked slavery, he was giving us with free will time to understand his lessons.  That would explain his view I think.

Maybe he should work on making his lessons clearer ? If there are literally thousands of ways to interpret the bible he is delibarately setting us up to fail. Just a single line saying slavery is wrong.... just one little line. Is that so much to ask for ?

Which, I am so glad this is mentioned. I was going to mention it, (if anyone believes that, ....... I was.........   ) but I think it’s a good point. On top of this, if it’s shown God is around a whole lot longer than those on Earth, that means (to me at least) that so many live and die, before they can achieve the understanding that God want’s everyone to understand. Why are people of today any better than those from yesterday, dead and gone? 

If there is a all around caring god, then show everyone these ‘how to live life’ rules and make them simple and accessible to all. (Including a person like me, with a slight learning disability who can’t make heads or tails out of sentences that people reading off the Bible through out.) That is why, I can’t understand how a secular raised individual like me is suppose to think that I needed them and still do to behave as a person that I feel I already have without them. A ‘2600 degrees of Kevin Bacon’ explanation is not entirely provable if one can’t actually pinpoint where it actually ties into. Any type of source of belief can be tied into that, the way I see it. And interpreted in different ways, like with someone whose mind first sees something else, before the mind can rationalize and settle on to what it actually says and means. 

On 3/16/2019 at 7:52 PM, Tatetopa said:

Not from me friend. Sadly, it wasn't my call, and its safer not to criticize the boss. I did write the instructions for reconstituting brine shrimp though.   I was only a junior design engineer in the arthropod department.  I did trilobites and mantis shrimp and helped a friend out with tardigrades .  We did it after work on our own time when we were supposed to be resting.  The boss got onto us for working through break . Still, rather proud of that tardigrade . It was a hoot.

 

On 3/16/2019 at 8:02 PM, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

You are right to be proud of the tardigrade. Thats one tough critter ! 

Ok, I’m confused.   

YOU SEE WHAT I MEAN!!!!!!!!!

      

 

On 3/16/2019 at 8:37 PM, Golden Duck said:

The Golden Rule is obsolete.  And I would argue that it has been that way at least since the Hicklin Test.

The Platinum Rule is the contemporary standard.  Look at how any industrial democracy policy is written.

Well, this is the first time I have ever heard of the Platinum rule. (Diamond rule too as well, for that matter) And, I see a bit of a conundrum there. So, how is those who wish to be treated well, going to get that if we can’t read minds? Are they going to tell us? 

(If this makes sense) 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

On 3/17/2019 at 3:55 AM, eight bits said:

 

Well, it can be messy to get between the goldens, but there do seem to be a few problems with the platinum rule as rule, at least as compared to the typical golden rule.

First, how would I generally know how somebody else wishes to be treated?

 

Yikes! Forgot 8bits asked this. 

[Piney]

12 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

The two sweat lodges I went to were held by Arapahoes.  The leader/organizer was also a Methodist minister.  It all resembled a Protestant church service, except for praying to Grandfather and the preceding purification with sagebrush smoke.

 

Our Methodist Minister hold's sweat lodges. Our church is considered the one of the historical Native Methodist churches.

https://www.pym.org/historic-designation-ceremony-st-john-united-methodist-church-fordville/

 

[Piney]

17 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

There's some reason to believe that the sweat lodge was introduced in North America by Vikings and that its use spread to many native tribes.

 

The Finns and Swedes settled among us in 1635. That's where our splint baskets originated and possibly our sweat lodges.  But they weren't Vikings.

[Doug1029]

22 minutes ago, Piney said:

Our Methodist Minister hold's sweat lodges. Our church is considered the one of the historical Native Methodist churches.

https://www.pym.org/historic-designation-ceremony-st-john-united-methodist-church-fordville/

 

Wow!  We seem to have a lot in common.

Doug

[Piney]

7 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

Wow!  We seem to have a lot in common.

 

I have the highest respect for you when it comes to environmental science and forestry management. I only took that 3 month course at Rutgers and went to fire school at Lackland and Hunter. Your the man with Foresters. 

[Doug1029]

21 minutes ago, Piney said:

The Finns and Swedes settled among us in 1635. That's where our splint baskets originated and possibly our sweat lodges.  But they weren't Vikings.

There are potentially lots of ways a sweat lodge could come to North America.

 

There are about 3000 North American place names that can be phonetically translated into English using an Icelandic dictionary.  These are nearly all in the Northeast.

The Iroquois long house very much resembles a Norse long house.  The Norse had saunas; the Iroquois had sweat lodges.

"Iroquois" means "people who live in the south."  "Surokwa" means "people who live in the south."  Where would you live if you considered the Iroquois to be southerners?

There is a confirmed Norse settlement at L'Anse au Meadows, Newfoundland.  Architecture is consistent with 8th, 10th and 12th century Norse construction.

There are a series of deadfall pits on Newfoundland that resemble deadfall pits used by the Norse to hunt reindeer.  Caribou are native to Newfoundland.

A runic carving on a rock on No Man's Land Island says "Leif was here."  Is it authentic?

There was a small runestone found in my hometown (Ashtabula, Ohio) on a lump of land called Fort Hill.  But nobody bothered to copy down what was on it and it has now been lost.

A Norse spearpoint was found on the southern shore of Lake Ontario.

A Norse penney was found on the coast of Maine.

The Kensington Stone tells the story of some lost Vikings trapped by winter on a Minnesota island.

The Heavener Runestone says:  "Glom's land" in Elder Futhark.

The Caves of Anu on the Arkansas River have ogham carvings.

The Norse were here and could easily have spread the sweat lodge all over eastern North America.  But did they?

Doug