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Ellapennella

Communism , Totalitarianism & Atheism

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EnderOTD
4 minutes ago, and then said:

And the men who argued for days and weeks while writing our founding documents understood this.  That's why that Constitution kept us civil and sane for as long as it did.  It wasn't until we decided that education and morality were optional that we began the inevitable slide into dissolution.

Watch out for any politician that advocates for the dissolution of the electoral college, removing one of the most important road blocks to mob rule is not only irresponsible, but will be the first step to tyranny.

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Carlos Allende
2 minutes ago, and then said:

I'd like to agree with you Carlos but if it's easy, it sure has been a LONG time coming, innit?

Well, in all seriousness, mate, that depends how you look at it. Evolution has always been a life-and-death affair. One more ineffective animal dies, the other one lives. It's a matter of diametrics. We've never been at a bigger economic impasse, requiring more of a quantum leap.

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and then
1 minute ago, Carlos Allende said:

Well, in all seriousness, mate, that depends how you look at it. Evolution has always been a life-and-death affair. One more ineffective animal dies, the other one lives. It's a matter of diametrics. We've never been at a bigger economic impasse, requiring more of a quantum leap.

A way will be made or no one will be able to live in peace.  With all the other problems facing the people today, I'd say a shaking is about due no matter what the catalyst is.  But any economic system that relies on the goodwill and morality of human beings to manage it simply isn't going to happen for long.  To quote Lex Luthor - "People are no DAMNED good..."

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Likely Guy
21 minutes ago, danydandan said:

What hell does any of this have to do with spirituality vs scepticism?

It didn't have anything to do with US Politics either but that was where it was first posted.

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danydandan
8 minutes ago, Likely Guy said:

It didn't have anything to do with US Politics either but that was where it was first posted.

Surely it should be philosophy or something?

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GoldenWolf
3 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

 Communism & Totalitarianism are one in the same. 

When Atheist argue that they do not want religion , what do they think they will get ? 

Religions have been around for millenniums now, all we've pretty much seen is totalitarianism.

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danydandan
4 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Just a roundabout way of smearing atheists, ya know, because we are eeeeeeee-vil!

Well you're evil. So ehhhh there's that. 

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Jodie.Lynne
45 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Well you're evil. So ehhhh there's that. 

I'm only evil when I'm awake.

Other than that, I'm a perfect angel!

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Doug1o29
5 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

Communism is not the same as totalitarianism.

But communism always leads to totalitarianism. 

Only if the Marxist/Leninist governmental structure is being used.  Communism works much like the old Roman Senate with departments taking the place of patrician families.  People advance within the department just as one does in a business or governmental operation here in the US.  But at the top, the department head appoints a representative to the Politburo.  The Politburo is, thus, representative of the departments.  The premier is elected by the politburo from within its own ranks.  The department head can be elected by a committee of senior department officials, or by the Politburo.

With this structure, advancement is determined by those higher up the ladder until one reaches the top.  At that point, it becomes quasi-democratic.  But years of conforming to the department's leaders pretty much guarantees that only those who think like they do are going to reach the top.  This can be seen in any big American business.  Only if you think like the boss and demonstrate your loyalty and obedience to him do you get promoted.

This approach tends to concentrate power at the top.  The premier or the president of the company have near-total power.  So in that sense, you are right.  Marxist/Leninism (and capitalism) lead to totalitarianism.

The real danger with communism is that the government owns the means of production.  You HAVE to work for the government (or become a criminal.).  This little detail is subject to abuse.

 

So what can we do when the only difference between USA Incorporated and the People's Republic of America is who is running the tighter ship?  Socialism!

Socialism is not about who is in office.  It's about who owns the means of production:  worker ownership.  Each production unit is independent of all others, preserving the competition that capitalism brags about while doing everything possible to destroy it.  The company is controlled by an elected board of its own workers, who then appoint a CEO to actuallt run the company.  Otherwise, it's just like business the way we do it now.

Government can still be democratic, as in a New England town meeting, or representative as the US Congress is supposed to be.  As long as their are many different, worker's groups controlling the economy, democracy can be maintained.

 

The thing about Socialism is that most Americans think it's great - just don't tell them that what they like is called Socialism.  How about the eight-hour workday?  First proposed by the Socialist Party of America in 1901.  What about Social Security?  What about Medicare?  What about big sports teams that play in stadiums paid for with public tax money?  What about Interstates paid for with tax money?  What about the Defense Department budget - the world's second largest planned economy?  What about zoos and art galleries paid for with public money?  What about fire departments?  What about insurance groups?  What about the public court system?  How about public parks?  How about the National Forests?

Four of our states even retain the name "Commonwealth," indicative of their origins as socialist entities.

Maybe we need to figure out exactly what it is we do or don't like about these things.

Doug

Doug

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and then
1 hour ago, Doug1o29 said:

Maybe we need to figure out exactly what it is we do or don't like about these things.

That one is easy!  It's the flawed human beings that run things.

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GoldenWolf
2 minutes ago, and then said:

That one is easy!  It's the flawed human beings that run things.

Can't just blame everything on the government/authority (make no mistake there is a ton of corruption). If people actually stood together things would be a thousand fold better.

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and then
1 minute ago, GoldenWolf said:

Can't just blame everything on the government/authority (make no mistake there is a ton of corruption). If people actually stood together things would be a thousand fold better.

All those people standing together still have to choose someone to be in authority.  THAT is when the problems begin.  I'm not speaking of any particular governmental authority here.  It's leaders in general who have no oversight that create the problems long term.  Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes...

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Doug1o29
14 hours ago, and then said:

That one is easy!  It's the flawed human beings that run things.

Don't complain.  ORGANIZE!

Doug

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Stubbly_Dooright

I think it has been shown here that communism and totalitarian is not entirely the same. (I think a bit of exploring more and showing examples of the points should have been placed while making statements.) 

Atheism: (According to here

Quote

atheism

[ey-thee-iz-uh m]

noun

the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

I don’t see how a simple lack of belief in something is connected and thought of as a totalitarian state of being. As I have seen here in these boards, there is varying types of posts and posters of each point of view and outlooks, and beliefs and lack of them. 

Granted, I think there have been a few ( a few!!!!) Atheists I think that wants everyone else to not believe like they do. But, I think there have a few (if not more in my opinion and observations) of the varying beliefs and religions who come across as that here as well. And, I think it should be noted, here on these boards, I have found Atheists, Christians, Muslims, Jewish, Wiccans, and other such beliefs, (like my own unique one :D ) that actually just want to be accepted for who they are and really sincerely accept others for they are.  Where are the many examples that all Atheists want a totalitarian state here? Really, where are the examples, the many many examples? 

If there is any way to convince me all Atheists want that, then how come I have yet to see, (in my real life) like at home (door knockers) at work, with my friends and family, Atheists trying to push me into not believing. Usually, it’s from a particular religion, (and it’s a particular two Christian religions I have seen and experienced examples of through out my whole life) I am going to be very shocked, if an Atheist or two, knock on my door to gain the ‘good news’ of not believing. Because, they haven’t in the past, that’s why. 

 

In fact, if Atheists want a totalitarian states, (if using the states as an example) how come there isn’t a lot of Atheists in the government trying to do just that? For me, I usually see the random religious trying to do that. That’s why I think there should be examples that can be linked to trust worthy sources, so I can actually believe it’s happening. Because, I’m seemingly seeubg the opposite. 

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RavenHawk

I share @Ellapennella's thoughts on two of the three but as far as atheism goes, I don’t.  There’s no reason to bash atheism.  I see atheism as just another form of religion.  Religion has a broad meaning.  It can be a source of compassion, comfort, and unity to many any a source of tyranny for others.  Most live by their faith which is personal and most faiths do not include imposing your belief on others.  Sharing your faith is completely different and that is what we should do.  I think this includes most atheists.  Religion (separate from faith) has a capacity to organize and that has brought a mixed bag of blessing and nightmare.  Militant atheism is no different.  Religion has saved Europe, Arabia, and India, especially against Genghis Khan, but it has also persecuted and killed more than Genghis Khan ever did.  Religion has saved Europe and India from Islam but at what cost?  Man does not advance but through war.  But it’s when religion crosses a line to a type of government, then we get a theocracy.  It’s not good to combine politics and religion.  I would then add theocracy with the other two, Communism and Totalitarianism.  They are all the same.  But instead of wasting time showing why, I’ll leave it up to anyone here to show why they are all different.  Please, for brevity’s sake keep it very very short.  You can certainly pull from a google definition or whatever.  I would prefer something in your own words.  But after you do that, I will follow up with another question.  If you answer the first, I hope you will have the integrity to answer the second.

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Ellapennella
1 minute ago, RavenHawk said:

I share @Ellapennella's thoughts on two of the three but as far as atheism goes, I don’t.  There’s no reason to bash atheism.  I see atheism as just another form of religion.  Religion has a broad meaning.  It can be a source of compassion, comfort, and unity to many any a source of tyranny for others.  Most live by their faith which is personal and most faiths do not include imposing your belief on others.  Sharing your faith is completely different and that is what we should do.  I think this includes most atheists.  Religion (separate from faith) has a capacity to organize and that has brought a mixed bag of blessing and nightmare.  Militant atheism is no different.  Religion has saved Europe, Arabia, and India, especially against Genghis Khan, but it has also persecuted and killed more than Genghis Khan ever did.  Religion has saved Europe and India from Islam but at what cost?  Man does not advance but through war.  But it’s when religion crosses a line to a type of government, then we get a theocracy.  It’s not good to combine politics and religion.  I would then add theocracy with the other two, Communism and Totalitarianism.  They are all the same.  But instead of wasting time showing why, I’ll leave it up to anyone here to show why they are all different.  Please, for brevity’s sake keep it very very short.  You can certainly pull from a google definition or whatever.  I would prefer something in your own words.  But after you do that, I will follow up with another question.  If you answer the first, I hope you will have the integrity to answer the second.

 

I think  un checked atheism would definitely lead to such tyranny.

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Ellapennella
36 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

 

I don’t see how a simple lack of belief in something is connected and thought of as a totalitarian state of being.

 

 

Simple? I don't mean simple people, I'm talking about  rulers of a nation.

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RavenHawk
2 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

I think  un checked atheism would definitely lead to such tyranny.

It’s unchecked anything will lead to tyranny.  I am Christian but I would not want some Puritan faith dictating to me how to live.  Edgar Friendly always comes to mind.

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Ellapennella
15 hours ago, and then said:

All those people standing together still have to choose someone to be in authority.  THAT is when the problems begin.  I'm not speaking of any particular governmental authority here.  It's leaders in general who have no oversight that create the problems long term.  Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes...

So this maybe a little off topic of  what you were saying but  if heads of nations have no authority over  to be held accounted of in how they rule over others  it seems to me that it usually gets pretty dark.

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Ellapennella
6 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

It’s unchecked anything will lead to tyranny.  I am Christian but I would not want some Puritan faith dictating to me how to live.  Edgar Friendly always comes to mind.

 

True. It's why we live and let live but we always have in our nation a respect for God. I think if that was ever to be removed the nation will decline and when that happens usually the one in charge is pretty grim.

eta 

It's why I don't agree with people who argue against God to remove God. It's a scary thought of what will happen if that ever was to happen.

Edited by Ellapennella
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Kittens Are Jerks
23 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

I think  un checked atheism would definitely lead to such tyranny.

Oh really? I fail to understand why an absence of God would be such a frighting prospect for you, so by all means elaborate.

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RabidMongoose
On ‎24‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 2:49 PM, Ellapennella said:

 Communism & Totalitarianism are one in the same. 

When Atheist argue that they do not want religion , what do they think they will get ? 

To uphold a Communist belief system then several things are needed:

1. People need to believe that they are all equals.

2. People need to believe they are nothing more than biological robots.

3. All people that disagree with Communism or point out its obvious flaws need to be demonised as corrupt, greedy, self-centred, or evil.

Religion is at odds with all three but especially the third. With the third if there is no punishment for treating good people poorly then its easier to overcome the moral conflict it causes inside oneself. Funnily enough, its always why sociopaths are attracted to the political left not the right.

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Doug1o29

In the 19th century capitalism ran amok, unchecked by any power base outside itself.  The church was part of that and blamed the poor for their own condition.  "The poor are always with us, but it's the rich who fill our coffers."  The church urged people to accept their condition in this world and pray for deliverance in the next.

When the church turned away from the people they professed to serve, those people turned away from the church.  Thus, atheism became a part of reforming society.

Had organized religion followed the principles it professed to believe in, atheism would not have succeeded.

Doug

 

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RavenHawk
6 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

True. It's why we live and let live but we always have in our nation a respect for God.

I believe that it is historical fact that those nations that respect GOD are blessed.

 

I think if that was ever to be removed the nation will decline and when that happens usually the one in charge is pretty grim.

Yes, it will but forcing that on others does not help.  If people are falling away from GOD, it is not them but the fault lies within us.  Because we are not being inclusive and that allows the Dark Energy to flow freely.  Christianity, indeed all religions need to reevaluate the dogmas of the past.  We have matured a bit since Nicaea.  It is time to put away childish understandings of faith and religion.  Jesus seeks companions not, cookie cutter yes-men.  Our faith has been represented far too long by Catholicism.  The Mitzvah is not some anal attempt that assures that we know every article of law, but to teach us respect of ourselves, others, and GOD.

 

It's why I don't agree with people who argue against God to remove God. It's a scary thought of what will happen if that ever was to happen.

Those are two different things.  We don’t have to like those who argue against GOD.  It is their right.  But I am against removing GOD from public places but GOD must first be and remain in one’s heart.  If he is there, he can never be removed.  I’m not saying to retreat but in a secular government, we can stand and fight it.  It is our right.  And true atheism does not seek to remove GOD either.  I can’t see where a cross or the Ten Commandments offends any atheist.  I think atheist are more reviled by the history of the Church and the hypocrisy of Bible thumpers.

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