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ellapenella

Communism , Totalitarianism & Atheism

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Stubbly_Dooright

You know, I always wondered if morals were exclusive to one religion or to religion for that matter. I came across This site and article  that seems to me to make sense. Why is it hard to believe humans can be good, moral, and caring all by themselves? 

Quote

Our inbuilt ‘secular’ morality whispers that kindness to others is good. Good in itself. Good because that’s what ‘good’ means. Not good because (who knows?) God may be doing a bit of plainclothes detective work among us, and dressing up as a beggar, prisoner or invalid. The master’s steward ought to look after members of his master’s household not because the master may arrive secretly in the night, but because those people matter, and are human beings just like him. Inserting God as a spy cheapens what should be the moral basis of our civility.

Makes me think we’re unthinking puppets. But, we’re not are we?

 

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GoldenWolf
8 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

fd34cc95c7bace82196b31ba6b5cfe6e.png

 

43744-the-stupid-it-burns.jpeg?fit=264,3

 

Are you making any attempt to have the bible changed?

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy

I think this is a very relevant video in regards to this discussion:

I know you probably won't see this video @RavenHawk but you really should. 

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Aquila King
16 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

fd34cc95c7bace82196b31ba6b5cfe6e.png

 

43744-the-stupid-it-burns.jpeg?fit=264,3

 

God, your sheer level of smug condescension, and extreme untold levels of confidence in your objectively false position, whilst simultaneously being so demonstrably wrong about all of this is simply unheard of...

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jmccr8
1 hour ago, RavenHawk said:

This is fncking amazing!  I get hammered because I try to elaborate in a couple of posts.  “why didn’t you just answer yes or no”.  Now that I answered a yes or no question with no, I get hammered for that.  What a bunch of phonies!

Hi RavenHawk

 you didn't give a yes or no answer and delved off into unsupported territory and to be directly honest you need to support your claims with more than personal opinion and the onus is on you to support your position,

jmccr8

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RavenHawk
13 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

You know, I always wondered if morals were exclusive to one religion or to religion for that matter. I came across This site and article  that seems to me to make sense. Why is it hard to believe humans can be good, moral, and caring all by themselves? 

Makes me think we’re unthinking puppets. But, we’re not are we?

 

Everyone has morals.  But without GOD, Man’s morals are “do unto others before they do unto you”.  Man is inherently selfish.  That isn’t all bad, and this is readily provable.  When we are born, we are cold, hungry, and in a strange environment.  We are incapable of communicating our needs.  Innately, we cry to get attention.  A little bit later we learn we can manipulate our parents to give us what we want.  This is natural.  But our parents teach us respect and that builds a set of morals for us.  That respect comes from GOD.  If you’ve read or seen “Lord of the flies”, you’ll see what happens when a human population has been separated from GOD.  The children haven't had the benefit of knowing their parents.  They form their own morals and values and it’s not all altruistic.  In today’s world, “so called’ secular morals originate from GOD.

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jmccr8
1 hour ago, RavenHawk said:

I am not condoning slavery.  You have just lost it.

Hi RavenHawk

 You may want to explain what your position is on modern slavery and the bible. Please quote appropriate text in support of your position. 

Thanks

jmccr8

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GoldenWolf
3 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Everyone has morals.  But without GOD, Man’s morals are “do unto others before they do unto you”.  Man is inherently selfish.  That isn’t all bad, and this is readily provable.  When we are born, we are cold, hungry, and in a strange environment.  We are incapable of communicating our needs.  Innately, we cry to get attention.  A little bit later we learn we can manipulate our parents to give us what we want.  This is natural.  But our parents teach us respect and that builds a set of morals for us.  That respect comes from GOD.  If you’ve read or seen “Lord of the flies”, you’ll see what happens when a human population has been separated from GOD.  The children haven't had the benefit of knowing their parents.  They form their own morals and values and it’s not all altruistic.  In today’s world, “so called’ secular morals originate from GOD.

What are these morals you speak of?  B.T.W. the golden rule was around before God.

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Jodie.Lynne
52 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

And in this thread, I started off with expanding on such questions and people didn’t like that.

I am not 'people', I am me. I was intrigued by your statement, and hoped to learn what you meant. 

 

54 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

No, just showing up the collective hypocrisy.

Or, are just hiding behind an abrasive and condescending façade.

 

54 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Nice try.

I have no idea what this response is supposed to mean.

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RavenHawk
3 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi RavenHawk

 you didn't give a yes or no answer and delved off into unsupported territory and to be directly honest you need to support your claims with more than personal opinion and the onus is on you to support your position,

jmccr8

If I remember correctly, I’ve had 3 yes/no questions put to me.  The first two, I anticipated their disbelief and provided adequate support (not just my opinion).  I think the real answer is that people don’t care to explore the truth anymore, they just want to wallow in their denial and attack.  The group of atheists I use to know, there was mutual respect.  Very rarely was I jumped on.  I believe that the progressive mindset is creating a “Lord of the Flies” environment.

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RavenHawk
13 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi RavenHawk

 You may want to explain what your position is on modern slavery and the bible. Please quote appropriate text in support of your position. 

Thanks

jmccr8

My position on modern slavery is that it is immoral.  That’s it.  There is no message in-between the lines and no text to support that.  It is my belief.

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jmccr8
10 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

If I remember correctly, I’ve had 3 yes/no questions put to me.  The first two, I anticipated their disbelief and provided adequate support (not just my opinion).  I think the real answer is that people don’t care to explore the truth anymore, they just want to wallow in their denial and attack.  The group of atheists I use to know, there was mutual respect.  Very rarely was I jumped on.  I believe that the progressive mindset is creating a “Lord of the Flies” environment.

Hi RavenHawk

I didn't ask you a yes/no question. I made an observation and asked you to quantify it tin terms that were significant with respect to modern-day slavery within the scriptures. Facts being that slavery exists today and you have argued for its significance in the past, who/why biblical references would be required.. If you try to diverge from a direct question does not mean I will not ask again.

Happy St. Paddy's as we are just starting up and then there is the week-long wind-down.:lol:

jmccr8

 

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Aquila King
Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Everyone has morals.  But without GOD, Man’s morals are “do unto others before they do unto you”.  Man is inherently selfish.  That isn’t all bad, and this is readily provable.  When we are born, we are cold, hungry, and in a strange environment.  We are incapable of communicating our needs.  Innately, we cry to get attention.  A little bit later we learn we can manipulate our parents to give us what we want.  This is natural.  But our parents teach us respect and that builds a set of morals for us.  That respect comes from GOD.  If you’ve read or seen “Lord of the flies”, you’ll see what happens when a human population has been separated from GOD.  The children haven't had the benefit of knowing their parents.  They form their own morals and values and it’s not all altruistic.  In today’s world, “so called’ secular morals originate from GOD.

Answer these questions honestly:

  1. Do you believe that torture is an acceptable form of interrogations/punishment?
  2. Do you believe that women and children and innocent civilians are legitimate targets of war?
  3. Do you believe that offensive war against countries who don't attack your own, and military conquest towards anyone you happen to deem even a potential 'threat' to be the right thing to do?
  4. Do you believe that children who are born to parents in poverty don't deserve the right to an education/food/shelter/healthcare?
  5. Do you believe that children at any age should be ripped away from their parents permanently if their parents are suspected of illegally crossing the US border?

I realize these are somewhat political questions, but they're honestly more like bare-ass basic moral questions. Regardless of political ideology, only the most morally bankrupt individuals would hold such extremist views. Anyone with half a conscience should know these things to be morally wrong.

I know as a fact that you have expressed these exact sentiments before in the past. It's kinda hard to forget seeing someone saying such things. So I'm curious as to whether or not you'll have the courage to actually stand by these statements while hypocritically touting your moral superiority BS.

Edited by Aquila King
Typos.
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jmccr8
15 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

My position on modern slavery is that it is immoral.  That’s it.  There is no message in-between the lines and no text to support that.  It is my belief.

Hi RavenHawk

 If you lived 2 thousand years ago getting whipped and working in a mine and underfeeding and isolated is any different than the people that disappear every year in some countries in the world whose families have no closure, mine included.

jmccr8

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Stubbly_Dooright
Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:
1 hour ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

You know, I always wondered if morals were exclusive to one religion or to religion for that matter. I came across This site and article  that seems to me to make sense. Why is it hard to believe humans can be good, moral, and caring all by themselves? 

Makes me think we’re unthinking puppets. But, we’re not are we?

 

Everyone has morals.  But without GOD, Man’s morals are “do unto others before they do unto you”.  Man is inherently selfish.  That isn’t all bad, and this is readily provable.  

If it is, prove it? By a source that is credible. 

But, while you do that, I’ll throw in my ante. I did some searching, and found how Here  thinks it’s the opposite. 

Quote

So what does the science say? In fact, people are quite willing to act for the good of the group, even if it's against their own interests, studies show. But paradoxically, social structures that attempt to give people incentives for good behavior can actually make people more selfish.

It would be a helpful thing for you to read the article on that site. I think it’s mentioning how it’s not black and white that ‘man is inherently selfish’. 

 

Quote

When we are born, we are cold, hungry, and in a strange environment.  We are incapable of communicating our needs.  Innately, we cry to get attention.  

Uh, but that is how babies communicate their needs. They cry. And, that gets attention. 

Quote

A little bit later we learn we can manipulate our parents to give us what we want.  This is natural.  But our parents teach us respect and that builds a set of morals for us.  That respect comes from GOD.  If you’ve read or seen “Lord of the flies”, you’ll see what happens when a human population has been separated from GOD.  The children haven't had the benefit of knowing their parents.  They form their own morals and values and it’s not all altruistic.  In today’s world, “so called’ secular morals originate from GOD.

Despite remembering having to read it in school, that’s all I remember. As a reader, and bookseller for many years, I have read a lot of books. 

Speaking as someone who was a long time book seller, you’re talking about A novel  that is Fiction book.  Are you trying to use this book to explain a real life example? If you are, I can’t take it as a credible example. It’s a fiction, and fiction does tend to make up for attractive compelling reads. Granted, they could also make us think, I credit quite a few fictional books to making me think. But to me, that’s a subjective frame of mind, that cannot be used to teach real life lessons. 

If there is a good example of showing isolated groups of people, (hidden tribes and villages etc.) This site has some interesting examples.  Granted, some use arrows to drive away people, but they’re protecting themselves from them, not fighting among themselves. The thing is, in the description of some of these people’s lives, it doesn’t seem to show a particular religion, and definitely looks like they don’t adhere to the orthodox God being discussed in this thread. To me, they seemed to do ok. 

Our natural instincts is to eat, seek warmth, entertainment, and companionship. We sense danger and we do something about it. We have an instinct to protect those we love, and we don’t love because we’re told to do so, but because we inherently do. How can one consider, that we then don’t have the instinct to behave, when we have all the other instincts. Granted, societies need leader(s), but that is for each society. 

If various isolated tribes, away from God, can prosper nicely, then that shows it’s not inherently coming from God. 

Edited by Stubbly_Dooright
Correct spelling
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Aquila King

Always nice to read your posts @Stubbly_Dooright:D

As a completely secular individual, I derive my morals simply from natural law. Physical and psychological health and well-being are relatively measurable circumstances. Pain and suffering are somewhat measurable experiences. It's - dare I say - a scientific fact that things like rape and assault cause objective physical and psychological harm to people.

I don't need to invoke some higher power or deity to know that such things are wrong. They simply are wrong inherently by themselves. 

This doesn't mean that some morals are questionable grey areas worthy of debate, there most definately are such kinds of circumstances. But overall it doesn't take a rocket scientist or some God like being to know general right from wrong. It's simply inherent to nature itself.

Why on earth the religious insist that God is necessary for morality is simply beyond me. I suspect it has less to do with actual morals, and more to do with wanting to feel like you're morally superior to everyone else.

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jmccr8
32 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

My position on modern slavery is that it is immoral.  That’s it.  There is no message in-between the lines and no text to support that.  It is my belief.

Hi RavenHawk

 Science shows that we are mentally/physically no different in the modern sapient line over the last 70kbp. Yes, we have advanced but our capacity to interpret data is no different than given current environments, exposure to those environments creates a reaction, This exists in each of our physical experiences to having love/pain, truth/lies, etc... what if none of it is personal? It just is because the potential exists and you can exercise yourselves to better deal with reality, and we have a healthy stock of blue and red pills to suit your fantasy.

jmccr8

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Stubbly_Dooright
1 minute ago, Aquila King said:

Always nice to read your posts @Stubbly_Dooright:D

 

Likewise, my friend. :). :D. :st

 

Quote

As a completely secular individual, I derive my morals simply from natural law. Physical and psychological health and well-being are relatively measurable circumstances. Pain and suffering are somewhat measurable experiences. It's - dare I say - a scientific fact that things like rape and assault cause objective physical and psychological harm to people.

I don't need to invoke some higher power or deity to know that such things are wrong. They simply are wrong inherently by themselves. 

 

I would think, it would be insulting to think humanity, (as a whole) cannot think for themselves, including such behaviors and acts and as what they are. 

I was doing some reading, dealing with the topics mentioned in this thread, and coming across sites discussing our founders and such, isn’t the term ‘self-evident’ mentioned in documents that became part of the foundiing of America? 

 

Quote

This doesn't mean that some morals are questionable grey areas worthy of debate, there most definately are such kinds of circumstances. But overall it doesn't take a rocket scientist or some God like being to know general right from wrong. It's simply inherent to nature itself.

Why on earth the religious insist that God is necessary for morality is simply beyond me. I suspect it has less to do with actual morals, and more to do with wanting to feel like you're morally superior to everyone else.

I think, that could be. As I have lived, traveled, and worked with many different people and cultures, I think some do, and I think some are true to their beliefs, and well..... there is a whole bunch of reasons they do. Even in one court on one base we lived on, there was a family who were true believers, (of Christianity) and I saw that. They followed their belief for them to be better people, and they didn’t preach. Then in that same court, I saw people use it to act superior over others. And yes, there was that lady there too, who used it to get what she wanted from others, without caring how she imposed and inconvienced them. 

I may have a higher power in my belief, and I think I’m being guided to live well, but in the end, the right from wrong, came from around me. I grew up in an area of a secular country, that was pretty much very secular. (So, it wasn’t the Bible Belt) The north east, pretty much very secular. So, if there was lessons of right and wrong, it came from a secular level and it made sense in how it was taught. We saw how it was, by our understanding of what it does to others, We learned why, because of the why. Not because, we were told flat out and that’s it. 

And that’s another thing, how can one be told flat out, don’t do this or you’ll be punished, and expect them to think that is how one learns. Understanding why, is the bigger key. 

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Aquila King
4 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I think, that could be. As I have lived, traveled, and worked with many different people and cultures, I think some do, and I think some are true to their beliefs, and well..... there is a whole bunch of reasons they do. Even in one court on one base we lived on, there was a family who were true believers, (of Christianity) and I saw that. They followed their belief for them to be better people, and they didn’t preach. Then in that same court, I saw people use it to act superior over others. And yes, there was that lady there too, who used it to get what she wanted from others, without caring how she imposed and inconvienced them. 

I may have a higher power in my belief, and I think I’m being guided to live well, but in the end, the right from wrong, came from around me. I grew up in an area of a secular country, that was pretty much very secular. (So, it wasn’t the Bible Belt) The north east, pretty much very secular. So, if there was lessons of right and wrong, it came from a secular level and it made sense in how it was taught. We saw how it was, by our understanding of what it does to others, We learned why, because of the why. Not because, we were told flat out and that’s it. 

I started my spiritual journey in a fundamentalist Christian household going up, so I don't doubt that there are those who are deeply religious who believe what they do for genuine moral reasons. At the same time I've seen many a religious hypocrite who uses their own narrow view of 'morality' as a tool to assert their dominance and nothing more.

I personally had difficulty reconciling many of the objectively immoral passages in my own religious text (the Bible) and ended up leaving the religion due to moral objections to it.

9 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

And that’s another thing, how can one be told flat out, don’t do this or you’ll be punished, and expect them to think that is how one learns. Understanding why, is the bigger key. 

I think you just summed everything up perfectly there. :tu:

10 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I was doing some reading, dealing with the topics mentioned in this thread, and coming across sites discussing our founders and such, isn’t the term ‘self-evident’ mentioned in documents that became part of the foundiing of America? 

Yep. "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

Ironically though the founders didn't really believe that given that they owned slaves, oppressed women, didn't even let white men who don't own land to vote, etc. But hey, at least they were right on the broader principle, eh? :lol: It was a good start at least.

Also I'll just add that Americans used to actually believe a lot of other self-evident truths that they were actually right about, that in today's America is deemed controversial for whatever reason... <_<

10ee3fd.jpg

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jmccr8
5 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I would think, it would be insulting to think humanity, (as a whole) cannot think for themselves, including such behaviors and acts and as what they are

Hi Stubbly

 Hey,.. Hi girl how ya doing and glad to see you back sharing with the crew. Hominids and other group species(like all of them for breeding purposes as the least singular requirement) live in as both the communal participating environments and personal that depended on the group for assistance(and even as the social isolate I am aware that I am I both impact and am impacted on my environment). When we read writings from men that walked this earth 2k ago  and realize how our minds are so alike to those times The idea that there may have been a significant portion of a population that was any more religious than the drunks that show up for Sunday service

jmccr8

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RavenHawk
34 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

I didn't ask you a yes/no question. I made an observation and asked you to quantify it tin terms that were significant with respect to modern-day slavery within the scriptures. Facts being that slavery exists today and you have argued for its significance in the past, who/why biblical references would be required.. If you try to diverge from a direct question does not mean I will not ask again.

Well, didn’t I just answer it?  But you seem to have added more…  I don’t think modern-day slavery has anything to do with the scriptures.  If you are trying to get at where people were using the scriptures to support slavery??  I disagree with that.  That’s not the purpose of the Bible.  I didn’t argue for its significance in the past.  I argued that it was significant in the past (note the difference).  I can not change history.  I can only learn from it.  Did you read the previous post by Rlyeh trying to illogically show that because slavery was in the Bible that GOD’s morals have changed today?  And I went into depth to show otherwise.

 

If you try to diverge from a direct question does not mean I will not ask again.

If you are being honest, I will reciprocate.  If not, I may not answer, no matter how many times you ask.

 

Happy St. Paddy's as we are just starting up and then there is the week-long wind-down.

And the up coming Dyngus Day…

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jmccr8
22 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

And that’s another thing, how can one be told flat out, don’t do this or you’ll be punished, and expect them to think that is how one learns. Understanding why, is the bigger key. 

Hi Stubbly

One day I told my mom that if you kicked your dog every time you walked passed it and one day you walked by it when it was laying down and kicked it and it didn't even look up that you had kicked it to the point that it didn't matter anymore. She missed the point,:huh:

jmccr8

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jmccr8
9 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Well, didn’t I just answer it?  But you seem to have added more…  I don’t think modern-day slavery has anything to do with the scriptures.  If you are trying to get at where people were using the scriptures to support slavery??  I disagree with that.  That’s not the purpose of the Bible.  I didn’t argue for its significance in the past.  I argued that it was significant in the past (note the difference).  I can not change history.  I can only learn from it.  Did you read the previous post by Rlyeh trying to illogically show that because slavery was in the Bible that GOD’s morals have changed today?  And I went into depth to show otherwise.

Hi RavenHawk

Actually no, and not in the context given.No I didn't add more,I clarified a position so that you would be better equipt to respond, excuse me for any discrepancy in stating my position. Now to how or what or who's interpretation of god is mine or yours is subject to validity and my works on potential good or bad. Prove to me that you do not have potential and that it is not dependant on you, yours. about potential and how to deal with it in my world

jmccr8

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Stubbly_Dooright
39 minutes ago, Aquila King said:
56 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I think, that could be. As I have lived, traveled, and worked with many different people and cultures, I think some do, and I think some are true to their beliefs, and well..... there is a whole bunch of reasons they do. Even in one court on one base we lived on, there was a family who were true believers, (of Christianity) and I saw that. They followed their belief for them to be better people, and they didn’t preach. Then in that same court, I saw people use it to act superior over others. And yes, there was that lady there too, who used it to get what she wanted from others, without caring how she imposed and inconvienced them. 

I may have a higher power in my belief, and I think I’m being guided to live well, but in the end, the right from wrong, came from around me. I grew up in an area of a secular country, that was pretty much very secular. (So, it wasn’t the Bible Belt) The north east, pretty much very secular. So, if there was lessons of right and wrong, it came from a secular level and it made sense in how it was taught. We saw how it was, by our understanding of what it does to others, We learned why, because of the why. Not because, we were told flat out and that’s it. 

I started my spiritual journey in a fundamentalist Christian household going up, so I don't doubt that there are those who are deeply religious who believe what they do for genuine moral reasons. At the same time I've seen many a religious hypocrite who uses their own narrow view of 'morality' as a tool to assert their dominance and nothing more.

I personally had difficulty reconciling many of the objectively immoral passages in my own religious text (the Bible) and ended up leaving the religion due to moral objections to it.

I'm amazed, (as a secular raised individual with her own belief) at how I have noticed this from so many all over the place. Everywhere I have worked and lived, (and a lot of this board, you including) I hear individual's accounts of leaving, breaking away, and such of the belief systems they were raised in. I knew two people, who considered themselves 'reformed Catholics' :o 

It makes me wonder, if this should be very telling. Yes, in this thread even. 

39 minutes ago, Aquila King said:
56 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

And that’s another thing, how can one be told flat out, don’t do this or you’ll be punished, and expect them to think that is how one learns. Understanding why, is the bigger key. 

I think you just summed everything up perfectly there. :tu:

*shrugs* thanks! 

40 minutes ago, Aquila King said:
57 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I was doing some reading, dealing with the topics mentioned in this thread, and coming across sites discussing our founders and such, isn’t the term ‘self-evident’ mentioned in documents that became part of the foundiing of America? 

Yep. "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

Ironically though the founders didn't really believe that given that they owned slaves, oppressed women, didn't even let white men who don't own land to vote, etc. But hey, at least they were right on the broader principle, eh? :lol: It was a good start at least.

Also I'll just add that Americans used to actually believe a lot of other self-evident truths that they were actually right about, that in today's America is deemed controversial for whatever reason... <_<

10ee3fd.jpg

I think, I see and understand what you mean. ;)  

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Stubbly_Dooright
40 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:
1 hour ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I would think, it would be insulting to think humanity, (as a whole) cannot think for themselves, including such behaviors and acts and as what they are

Hi Stubbly

 Hey,.. Hi girl how ya doing and glad to see you back sharing with the crew.

I guess, I'm doing ok. thanks for asking. Well, there have been some 'trying' situations lately, but I try to keep up and going. (I think) 

And, as for here, It's like it's silently calling me. :ph34r:

 

Quote

Hominids and other group species(like all of them for breeding purposes as the least singular requirement) live in as both the communal participating environments and personal that depended on the group for assistance(and even as the social isolate I am aware that I am I both impact and am impacted on my environment). When we read writings from men that walked this earth 2k ago  and realize how our minds are so alike to those times The idea that there may have been a significant portion of a population that was any more religious than the drunks that show up for Sunday service

jmccr8

It's not something I regularly think about, since I have never went to regular church meetings, (seeing the drunks), but I think it's a long and hard study, because everybody is different. There is something, when considering groups, societies, and such. The thing is, societies are made up of individuals, all having and giving their subjective bits. I think, it's all in how everyone gets out of things (to learn from) as opposed in seeing what their little neck of the woods can provide for them. I mean, I could be wrong. *shrugs* 

 

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