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sci-nerd

God without scriptures?

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sci-nerd

Would God even be a subject today, if it wasn't for the Bible?

How much do we owe the Bible for today's theism? Including the Quran, which is post Bible (and obviously strongly inspired by it!).

Take into account the emergence of science, during the last 200 years.

Would we just add an S, and say Gods ??!

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Jodie.Lynne

If I could choose a belief, it would be in the old gods. Many of them represented forces of nature, and were very similar to the people who worshipped them.

The gods epitomized what the worshippers valued most: courage, loyalty, honesty, and morality, according to the society that made up the worshippers.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the old gods demanded the deaths that the Judeo-Christian god did. The old gods may have favored one side or the other, but they never commanded that entire tribes be wiped out, "in their name".

None of the old gods demanded genocide, or mass slavery, or that all the virgin females of a conquered tribe be forced into marriage.

Just my 2 centavos on the subject.

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papageorge1
41 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

Would God even be a subject today, if it wasn't for the Bible?

I'll go with 'Yes'. It seems every culture has some religious and metaphysical beliefs.

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sci-nerd
5 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I'll go with 'Yes'. It seems every culture has some religious and metaphysical beliefs.

I asked about a singular God. Only Judaism and Islam has that. Christianity has a Trinity.

What if those three never existed?

Edited by sci-nerd

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Jodie.Lynne
2 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I'll go with 'Yes'. It seems every culture has some religious and metaphysical beliefs.

Do you think, that without the bible/koran, there would be as much animosity by religion?

Would there be such large blocks of people shouting "I know I'm right, because MY god is the TRUE god!"?

Or do you think religions would be more or less equal, across the board?

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Jodie.Lynne
1 minute ago, sci-nerd said:

I asked about a singular God. Only Judaism and Islam has that. Christianity has a Trinity.

According to the Christians, it's a "trinity of one".

If I remember my religion classes accurately, it is one god with 3 aspects.

 

(But the Christians will denounce Hindu gods as "false idols" for exhibiting the same multi-faceted traits... ) Go figure.

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papageorge1
3 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

I asked about a singular God. Only Judaism and Islam has that. Christianity has a Trinity.

I don't think your question was clear. But anyway my point was that supernatural being(s) are rampant in human cultures.

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Farmer77
8 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

I asked about a singular God. Only Judaism and Islam has that. Christianity has a Trinity.

What if those three never existed?

The reality is monotheism had the muscle and technology to ensure their legacy lasted and thats why theyre still around they won the battles. Nature abhors a vacuum so if they werent the dominating force on the planet some other ideology would have been, most likely a religious one.

 

Edited by Farmer77
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papageorge1
6 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Do you think, that without the bible/koran, there would be as much animosity by religion?

Would there be such large blocks of people shouting "I know I'm right, because MY god is the TRUE god!"?

Or do you think religions would be more or less equal, across the board?

Without the Bible/Koran things would have developed differently. It is almost impossible to predict the amount of animosity the human races would have experienced with other things leading the way.

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Mr Walker
58 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

Would God even be a subject today, if it wasn't for the Bible?

How much do we owe the Bible for today's theism? Including the Quran, which is post Bible (and obviously strongly inspired by it!).

Take into account the emergence of science, during the last 200 years.

Would we just add an S, and say Gods ??!

Yes god would be known to people today through both faith and encounter. The scriptures are just a selection of  descriptions of a god, and its desires for humanity, based on human encounters and faith.

if you stand on one of the leaves branching from  the human historical tree which is the Abrahamic religions, then the bible is important.

If you do not, then it is not. I don't need the bible to know god or to connect with god, but I do use it to establish  a common  cultural context among Christians  which, in the last Australian census, still formed a majority of Australians. and certainly make up a big majority of my local communities. 

  

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Jodie.Lynne
1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

among Christians  which, in the last Australian census, still formed a majority of Australians. and certainly make up a big majority of my local communities. 

Ahh, so numbers = correctness, and might makes right, yes?

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Mr Walker
50 minutes ago, MERRY DMAS said:

There still would be people that "Feel" a creator in one form, or another in their hearts. But if the Bible never existed then the Pagan Gods of old would be more popular than they are now probably with less dogma?

I am not so sure. Pagan gods aren't suited to modern life. I think a modernised form of religion would have inevitably evolved which allowed for modern science and knowledge such as the orange bible of Dune  

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Mr Walker
1 minute ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Ahh, so numbers = correctness, and might makes right, yes?

 if you live in a community, it is wise to know and understand, and even live by, the laws customs and beliefs of that community, especially if you have no compelling reason not to.

If I lived in a Muslim, Jewish, or  Buddhist country i would do exactly  the same  thing, and follow their beliefs ( as far as my own understanding, ethics,  conscience and connection to god allowed me to)

Only a fool deliberately, and without pressing need, defies the will and custom of his community.     

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Jodie.Lynne
1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

I think a modernised form of religion would have inevitably evolved which allowed for modern science and knowledge such as the orange bible of Dune  

Except for the fact that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam do NOT evolve, you'd be correct.

And before you tell me that that have, any advances by any of those faiths was done kicking and screaming and dragging their heels in the dirt, and only FORCED to pay lip service to any ideas that run contrary to their beliefs.

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Jodie.Lynne
Just now, Mr Walker said:

Only a fool deliberately, and without pressing need, defies the will and custom of his community.  

Even if the 'will and customs' of the community are wrong? Or run counter to your own beliefs?

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Mr Walker
34 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

If I could choose a belief, it would be in the old gods. Many of them represented forces of nature, and were very similar to the people who worshipped them.

The gods epitomized what the worshippers valued most: courage, loyalty, honesty, and morality, according to the society that made up the worshippers.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the old gods demanded the deaths that the Judeo-Christian god did. The old gods may have favored one side or the other, but they never commanded that entire tribes be wiped out, "in their name".

None of the old gods demanded genocide, or mass slavery, or that all the virgin females of a conquered tribe be forced into marriage.

Just my 2 centavos on the subject.

Not so sure about tha t.  How much do you know about viking  or mongol beliefs let alone meso American. Are you aware of the bushido code

Slaves were an essential part of almost every ancient culture. Treatment of enemies was cruel and harsh eg whole groups were often killed so that the sons would not grow up to avenge their fathers, while women were taken into the tribe and their children raised in the tribe's ways. Torture and cannibalism were common.  and an enemy could be anyone outside your own clan or tribe. Women had few if any rights and usually died young from childbirth related  causes The difference is that most of these religions never had their laws and customs written down and recorded for history. 

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Mr Walker
7 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Except for the fact that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam do NOT evolve, you'd be correct.

And before you tell me that that have, any advances by any of those faiths was done kicking and screaming and dragging their heels in the dirt, and only FORCED to pay lip service to any ideas that run contrary to their beliefs.

lol of course the y have evolved, hugely. Islam less so but mostly  because it has a much shorter period of history in which to adjust to modern societies Until the 1940s most Muslim countries were feudla patriarchs with attitudes similar to those of Europe in the middle ages There has never been the economic movement and emancipation of women in the Muslim countries as occured in the west after ww2  but it is coming  

Gay marriage-  recognised by many churches.

Women priests -recognised by most churches

divorce and remarriage- Allowed in most churches

Women's rights, including not to be considered the property of a man - recognised by almost every christian church..

Right to keep slaves- Denied by every christian church

Rights of children as individuals-A lot of progress  made but still room for more.

Recognition of rape in marriage _ recognised by all christian churches that i know of.   

Your prejudice is just that  and, i assume, might come from  some personal experiences which have given you your dislike for religion.  

People come to their values inside of a set of community values. Religion makes up only a part of that  community .

As societies change, values change and peole change The need for women in the work force the introduction of the contraceptive pill and the availability of the automobile transformed post war western countries  Because people make up churches then, inevitably, churches also change. 

 

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Mr Walker
47 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Even if the 'will and customs' of the community are wrong? Or run counter to your own beliefs?

That is covered by  "pressing needs"

I had also written this. 

 ( as far as my own understanding, ethics,  conscience and connection to god allowed me to)

One can easily adjust beliefs to a new society, but one cannot discard core ethical values based on outcomes  

If by wrong you mean the community is acting in ways which do no good, and bring harm, then I could not follow their beliefs  or customs.

But just because their beliefs and practices  are different to mine is not a problem  in itself eg I could live in a community which never used alcohol but  I cpuld not live in one which compelled drinking alcohol because of the harm it does.

  As part of a community I have a duty/obligation to support, protect and improve, that community   

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

According to the Christians, it's a "trinity of one".

If I remember my religion classes accurately, it is one god with 3 aspects.

 

(But the Christians will denounce Hindu gods as "false idols" for exhibiting the same multi-faceted traits... ) Go figure.

That depends which variant of Christianity you follow. Some are more monotheistic, others more pantheistic. In the pantheistic versions the trinity is 3 parts of one being but they are 3 individual parts and can separate,  combine/ integrate or play combined or separate roles. In the monotheistic version, it is more one singular god with different aspects 

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Guyver
2 hours ago, sci-nerd said:

Would God even be a subject today, if it wasn't for the Bible?

How much do we owe the Bible for today's theism? Including the Quran, which is post Bible (and obviously strongly inspired by it!).

Take into account the emergence of science, during the last 200 years.

Would we just add an S, and say Gods ??!

Yes.  Because every people group that has ever existed has some belief in the spiritual or supernatural (that I know of) except for atheists.  But atheists also have beliefs because believing there is nothing is believing something.

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Hammerclaw
3 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

If I could choose a belief, it would be in the old gods. Many of them represented forces of nature, and were very similar to the people who worshipped them.

The gods epitomized what the worshippers valued most: courage, loyalty, honesty, and morality, according to the society that made up the worshippers.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the old gods demanded the deaths that the Judeo-Christian god did. The old gods may have favored one side or the other, but they never commanded that entire tribes be wiped out, "in their name".

None of the old gods demanded genocide, or mass slavery, or that all the virgin females of a conquered tribe be forced into marriage.

Just my 2 centavos on the subject.

Actually, the Judeo-Christian God is deeply embedded and beholden to Mesopotamian religious traditions, going back thousands of years before there even was a Jew. All the things you cite were inherited from those ancient civilizations, who were, often even more barbaric, sadistic, avaricious and perverse than the Jews ever hoped to be. The Assyrians  make the Jews look like rank amateurs when it comes to atrocities and like the Jews, their religious narrative had their gods supporting them every step of the way. Judaism was/is far from pristine and untouched by the cultural complexes it found it's diaspora embedded in throughout it's history. Never-the-less, it was and is a Middle Eastern religion.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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DebDandelion
7 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Do you think, that without the bible/koran, there would be as much animosity by religion?

Would there be such large blocks of people shouting "I know I'm right, because MY god is the TRUE god!"?

Or do you think religions would be more or less equal, across the board?

Animosity u find within humanity. So I feel there would have been yes.

They did shout 'we are right'. U get fanatics in every religion. Spirituality is a different story.

Human nature , the ego makes us want to feel superior to others. Religion is just one facet where this is visible.

Saying you will do something because others don't do it as well as u do is another way of being (thinking u are) superior

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Stubbly_Dooright
14 hours ago, sci-nerd said:

Would God even be a subject today, if it wasn't for the Bible?

How much do we owe the Bible for today's theism? Including the Quran, which is post Bible (and obviously strongly inspired by it!).

Take into account the emergence of science, during the last 200 years.

Would we just add an S, and say Gods ??!

I think that is an interesting thought and question. My answer, I probably wouldn’t think If we’re thinking of the orthodox religions, They happen to have  material, like the Bible, Koran, Torah,  with word that don’t change, would be a more of an anchor, if you will. Evidence of the thought of them, I guess. 

I think of the varying posts here that thinks there would be religious beliefs in something, I would think that would change throughout the years. And considering times do change, I think the reason that the known religions still have those same defining elements, is because there is something to go back to refer to. 

I think of my own unique belief, that denies getting rules, and such from material things. And my belief is not part of the orthodox belief in a god figure, so those. And considering I grew up secular, I think that kind of shows how, there might be that chance, the road would continue to lead to the known God of these known beliefs. 

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danydandan
14 hours ago, sci-nerd said:

Would God even be a subject today, if it wasn't for the Bible?

How much do we owe the Bible for today's theism? Including the Quran, which is post Bible (and obviously strongly inspired by it!).

Take into account the emergence of science, during the last 200 years.

Would we just add an S, and say Gods ??!

So we are specifically talking about an Abrahamic God?  One with many names and versions, El, Yahweh, Elah, Elohim, Om, Adonai, Jehovah or of course Christ.

Are these all the same God? Who knows!

Would God of the OT and NT be as widespread if the Gospels weren't all stuck together by the Catholic Church? In my opinion no. Not by a long shot.

But as others have pointed out, I feel a singular God construct was inevitable due to power struggles, empire building and nationalism, because at the end of the day that's what brought God into fray.

Edited by danydandan
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