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sci-nerd

God without scriptures?

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MWoo7

Just popping these in Canada-Loonie_Toonie.jpg

 

 

and and filing this away for future use, as I've coded and played with databases I Like that line > """ But my data may be out of date. "

NOTHING LIKE A DELAYED POST  oh well laterzzzzzzzzzzz

Edited by MWoo7
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Jodie.Lynne
2 minutes ago, Habitat said:

I'll leave that for others to judge.

So you cannot point to any post you've made, that you think is enlightening in some way?

Put another way, what post of yours are you most proud of?

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Guyver
2 hours ago, sci-nerd said:

There's a difference between knowing what is, and believing in nothing.

For atheists "belief" is fantasy. Even atheists have fantasies, but they are not defined by them.

Well sure, but knowing what is?  Nobody knows what is.  We know what we think is.

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Jodie.Lynne
1 minute ago, Guyver said:

We know what we think is.

Do we, as humans interreacting with one another have a common, agreed upon reality?

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Guyver
Just now, Jodie.Lynne said:

Do we, as humans interreacting with one another have a common, agreed upon reality?

Yes and no.  Sorry I couldn’t answer you better than that....but I get the feeling that you would like the floor.  Listening.

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spartan max2
On 2/26/2019 at 6:59 PM, sci-nerd said:

Would God even be a subject today, if it wasn't for the Bible?

How much do we owe the Bible for today's theism? Including the Quran, which is post Bible (and obviously strongly inspired by it!).

Take into account the emergence of science, during the last 200 years.

Would we just add an S, and say Gods ??!

Yeah, 

Asian cultures and native American cultures had ideas of like animalism( I think it's called)

The idea that everything has spirit energy or spirits.

Edited by spartan max2

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Jodie.Lynne
5 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Yes and no.  Sorry I couldn’t answer you better than that....but I get the feeling that you would like the floor.  Listening.

Nope, just trying to see where you are headed with this:

9 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Well sure, but knowing what is?  Nobody knows what is.  We know what we think is.

 

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

True enough, and I agree with you. However, I don't think we see too many Mesopotamian churches, at least not in my neck of the woods. :)

From wherever the seeds of Judaism came from, we know that other areas of the planet had gods who were not so keen on mass slaughter as the Middle Eastern ones were.

And I am not discounted the South and Middle American religions that practiced ritual sacrifice either.

A hard world demanded hard gods. But most of the old gods and their tales didn't involve mass slaughter of entire tribes. As I stated, the 'gods' may have favored one side, or even one person, but I cannot recall any mythos wherein a god commanded 'slay them all".

Classic Middle Eastern warfare, replete with deities thirsting for blood. The Assyrians would wipe out whole cities blinding, mutilating and killing their male captives, thousands at a time. They'd then reduce the city, battering down it's fortifications. The the army would run riot through the streets snatching up the male children and dashing their brains out against the stones of the city. That assured there would not be sufficient manpower for two generation to stage a revolt. Of course their gods were very pleased--at least, that was the spin.

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Guyver
1 minute ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Nope, just trying to see where you are headed with this:

 

Ok.  It’s just the perception of reality.  We all perceive it differently, yet there is enough commonality among people, especially the educated, to allow us to believe we see the world similarly.  And often we do.  Considering the advent of writing, mathematics and science....we are able to communicate effectively over time, much more so than those who passed their truths down with storytelling.  So, there’s that.

Then again, there’s another thing.  We alter reality by the way we believe it to be through our own perception and cognition.  That is, what we perceive and think becomes the reality we accept.  It would take a lot of talking to explain it in complete detail, but since I know you are educated, you already understand my point.

So the bottom line is that what we believe, disbelieve or think is uncertain because of the very real possibility and dare I say extreme probability that even the world we live in exists on levels that we as collective humans don’t have any definitive knowledge of.  This can be proven to be a valid point because of multidimensional mathematics.

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Jodie.Lynne

@Hammerclaw Yet again, these are the religions of a specific area of the planet. It seems that slaughtering your enemies to the last man woman and child is mostly a middle eastern thing.

Even in the saga of the Trojan War, various gods chose sides, and had favored heroes, but the people involved had personal goals to meet, and the different gods were often at odds with each other. As far as I can recall, Zeus never commanded the Greeks to slay all the trojans, he simply aided certain heroes.

The point that I am trying to make (and feel that I am failing at), is that the god of the OT seems much more bloodthirsty that gods of other pantheons.

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Mr Walker
25 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Do we, as humans interreacting with one another have a common, agreed upon reality?

Clearly not. :) 

In reality, some parts of reality can be agreed upon, but because all reality is filtered through individual human minds with differing experiences and genetics, then each reality will inevitably be a little different 

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Jodie.Lynne
4 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Ok.  It’s just the perception of reality.

I'm not going to quote the entirety of your post, for brevity's sake. :)

Would I be correct in assuming you are NOT talking "brain in a vat" here?

I can agree with your post, in that we can be influenced by what we perceive. Example: One day at work, I detected an odor of burning paper. Rather than ask "Do you smell smoke?" I asked a couple of co-workers if they smelt anything odd. I did this, because people can get very panicky about smoke/fire and will "smell" what has been suggested to them. Long story short, they did smell smoke, we investigated and found a smouldering pile of paper that someone had carelessly tossed a cigarette into, right outside the door of our workplace.

 

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Mr Walker
41 minutes ago, MWoo7 said:

Just popping these in Canada-Loonie_Toonie.jpg

 

 

and and filing this away for future use, as I've coded and played with databases I Like that line > """ But my data may be out of date. "

NOTHING LIKE A DELAYED POST  oh well laterzzzzzzzzzzz

ah ha. Now there is a true loonie, and the Canadian mint has proprietorial  rights to the use of the name. :) 

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Guyver
4 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I'm not going to quote the entirety of your post, for brevity's sake. :)

Would I be correct in assuming you are NOT talking "brain in a vat" here?

I can agree with your post, in that we can be influenced by what we perceive. Example: One day at work, I detected an odor of burning paper. Rather than ask "Do you smell smoke?" I asked a couple of co-workers if they smelt anything odd. I did this, because people can get very panicky about smoke/fire and will "smell" what has been suggested to them. Long story short, they did smell smoke, we investigated and found a smouldering pile of paper that someone had carelessly tossed a cigarette into, right outside the door of our workplace.

 

I guess that’s the perfect proof that we do in fact share this world and experience it together.  We could still be brains in a vat, or supercomputer if you will....and that would not change the fact you just proved.  But let me offer an extreme example.

You and your coworkers represent a small population.  In that population there could be one person who believes it was God who saved you all by allowing you to detect the danger, and another co-worker thinks that it was an attacki of the devil designed to kill people, and another guy who just thinks that it was nothing more than the course of normal human events and skill.  Capability if you will.

So, one event shared by all was viewed differently by each person who experienced it.

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Jodie.Lynne
3 minutes ago, Guyver said:

So, one event shared by all was viewed differently by each person who experienced it.

Very true! In my time as a LEO, in the course of interviewing witnesses, you are trained to decipher the truth out of a statement, because each witness has a different perspective to the event, both physically, and mentally/emotionally. 10 witnesses? 10 versions of events.

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Hammerclaw
39 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

@Hammerclaw Yet again, these are the religions of a specific area of the planet. It seems that slaughtering your enemies to the last man woman and child is mostly a middle eastern thing.

Even in the saga of the Trojan War, various gods chose sides, and had favored heroes, but the people involved had personal goals to meet, and the different gods were often at odds with each other. As far as I can recall, Zeus never commanded the Greeks to slay all the trojans, he simply aided certain heroes.

The point that I am trying to make (and feel that I am failing at), is that the god of the OT seems much more bloodthirsty that gods of other pantheons.

That's because the God of the old Testament is the Lord of Hosts--the God of War, when war is the topic. War God's are notoriously blood-thirsty.

 

 

 

 

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Guyver
1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

That's because the God of the old Testament is the Lord of Hosts--the God of War, when war is the topic. War God's are notoriously blood-thirsty.

Very interesting.  Isn’t that true?  I mean, it’s obvious that blood sacrifice is a big part of the bible.  So, God requires blood.  A kind of blood-god then?  I mean, the life is in the blood.  

Yet, I know it’s offensive to believers to hear the term blood-god, and I’m sorry to use it, but I think the point should be made.  The bible speaks of a God that requires blood sacrifice.

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Guyver

I can’t imaginr how the real God would require blood sacrifice.  

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Guyver

A God who requires blood sacrifice to please it sounds evil to me.  It seems to me that the real God wouldn’t require any blood sacrifice from the life it created in the first place because it would be so far above the need for human emotional response to almost despise it.

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Will Due

 

God doesn't require blood sacrifice. Men do.

Men require it because they think it encompasses the making of a deal.

I give you blood. You give me providence.

 

 

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Piney
2 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

The point that I am trying to make (and feel that I am failing at), is that the god of the OT seems much more bloodthirsty that gods of other pantheons.

He's the combination of both of these

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)#Proto-Sinaitic,_Phoenician,_Aramaic,_and_Hittite_texts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh#Bronze_Age_origins

 

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Habitat
5 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

God doesn't require blood sacrifice. Men do.

Men require it because they think it encompasses the making of a deal.

I give you blood. You give me providence.

 

 

Jodie is very much enamoured of mentioning blood lusting Gods, for the very good reason that they make a mockery of the idea of God, and that is the purpose of the exercise, to make God seem ridiculous and most improbable.

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Tatetopa
On 2/26/2019 at 4:48 PM, Jodie.Lynne said:

Do you think, that without the bible/koran, there would be as much animosity by religion?

Would there be such large blocks of people shouting "I know I'm right, because MY god is the TRUE god!"?

Or do you think religions would be more or less equal, across the board?

Maybe it also has something to do with the region and the cultures that evolved there.  

Waring tribes that share the same gods do not war about religion.  Peoples with different gods might take that into any conflict with the neighbors

Then too,maybe monotheism has a bit to do with it.  If you are a god growing up in a large family of gods with siblings, parents, children, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. You might be more amiable about sharing.  A singular god like an only child may not have good sharing skills.

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Guyver
14 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

God doesn't require blood sacrifice. Men do.

Men require it because they think it encompasses the making of a deal.

I give you blood. You give me providence.

 

 

Right.  It’s primiteve superstition from cave men - our ancestors.

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Tatetopa
On 2/26/2019 at 5:20 PM, Mr Walker said:

Slaves were an essential part of almost every ancient culture. Treatment of enemies was cruel and harsh eg whole groups were often killed so that the sons would not grow up to avenge their fathers, while women were taken into the tribe and their children raised in the tribe's ways. Torture and cannibalism were common.  and an enemy could be anyone outside your own clan or tribe. Women had few if any rights and usually died young from childbirth related  causes The difference is that most of these religions never had their laws and customs written down and recorded for history. 

Hold on a second, are you describing the rest of the world or the Middle East and the big three monotheistic traditions?

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