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Eldorado

Islamophobia in the Conservative Party

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hetrodoxly
1 hour ago, Phaeton80 said:

Whats your point?

Christ, like Adam, was a creation of God, yes.

"Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them. Then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. She said, 'I seek refuge from you to God Most Gracious! Do not come near me, if you fear God!' He said, 'No, I am only a messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a holy son.' She said, 'How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?' He said, 'So (it will be). Your Lord says, 'That is easy for Me, and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men, and a Mercy from Us. It is a matter (so) decreed'" (19:16-21, the Chapter of Mary)

"Behold! The angels said, 'Oh Mary! God has chosen you and purified you, chosen you above the women of all nations. Oh Mary! Worship your Lord devoutly. Prostrate yourself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down'" (3:42-43).

And (remember) she who guarded her chastity. We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples (21:91). [While describing people who were good examples for others] "...And Mary, the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity. And We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit. She testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants)" (66:12).

“O Mary, Verily God gives you glad tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary – held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and will be one of those who are nearest to God.” (3:45)

 

So god made Mary pregnant, that makes him the father.

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Phaeton80
17 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

So god made Mary pregnant, that makes him the father.

 

Are - you - kidding me. Dude.. :mellow:

Think Im going to take this moment and, well.. rest my case a wee bit.

I might take the effort to summarize all the brilliant arguments thrown at me in this thread in an effort to 'prove' the 'obvious truth' of 'the essential religious fundament' known as 'the trinity', because - and I apologize upfront but thats just how it is from where Im standing - it has been ab so lutely comical thusfar.

 

 

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hetrodoxly
28 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

 

Are - you - kidding me. Dude.. :mellow:

Think Im going to take this moment and, well.. rest my case a wee bit.

I might take the effort to summarize all the brilliant arguments thrown at me in this thread in an effort to 'prove' the 'obvious truth' of 'the essential religious fundament' known as 'the trinity', because - and I apologize upfront but thats just how it is from where Im standing - it has been ab so lutely comical thusfar.

 

 

You're unning away, who's the father of Jesus?

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Phaeton80

So in your mind, you are actually winning this exchange based on the aformentioned question / argument (!!), and Im 'running away' (fixed that for you).

Isnt that nice (as well as insightful). :D What sort and or level of self confirming delusion must one wield to perceive such and utter these words is, in all honesty, beyond me.

Especially, especially given I already replied to this (utterly ridiculous) statement of 'proof'. Unbelievable, color me amazed, stupified. Literally.

 

 

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hetrodoxly
4 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

So in your mind, you are actually winning this exchange based on the aformentioned question / argument (!!), and Im 'running away' (fixed that for you).

Isnt that nice (as well as insightful). :D What sort and or level of self confirming delusion must one wield to perceive such and utter these words is, in all honesty, beyond me.

Especially, especially given I already replied to this (utterly ridiculous) statement of 'proof'. Unbelievable, color me amazed, stupified. Literally.ad hominem attack

 

 

Typical Muslim ad hominem attack, Who was Jesus's father.

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Phaeton80
2 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

Typical Muslim ad hominem attack, Who was Jesus's father.

 

You got issues dude, seriously.

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hetrodoxly
1 hour ago, Phaeton80 said:

 

You got issues dude, seriously.

Who was Jesus's father.

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Phaeton80
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

Who was Jesus's father.

Allright..

Quote

Whats your point?

Christ, like Adam, was a creation of God, yes.

Happy camper now? Ill expect you to respond in a way like: 'Typical Muslim response! Because Mary was pregnant, and she didnt have a husband, its proof the Holy Sperm of God fertilized Mary, who gave birth to God, in the form of Jesus. This, ofcourse, proves God is the biological Father of God, thereby proving hes the Son of God, which proves the Trinity!"

Jesus what a character, please stop this madness.

 

Edited by Phaeton80

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hetrodoxly
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

Allright..

Happy camper now? Ill expect you to respond in a way like: 'Typical Muslim response! Because Mary was pregnant, and she didnt have a husband, its proof the Holy Sperm of God fertilized Mary, who gave birth to God, in the form of Jesus. This, ofcourse, proves God is the biological Father of God, thereby proving hes the Son of God, which proves the Trinity!"

Jesus what a character, please stop this madness.

 

God fertilized the egg in Mary's womb that makes him the father, why do you Muslims limit the power of god, he can be three men ten men or an whole army, he can be the wind or rain, ignore the nonsens Uthman wrote when he invented the Quran.

 

4 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

'Typical Muslim response!

You fall into this category you've done nothing but attack the poster and not the post.

Edited by hetrodoxly

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Carlos Allende

As long as the Tories keep their world-famous support of the working class, that's all _I_ ask.

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Phaeton80
56 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

God fertilized the egg in Mary's womb that makes him the father, why do you Muslims limit the power of god, he can be three men ten men or an whole army, he can be the wind or rain, ignore the nonsens Uthman wrote when he invented the Quran.

 

You fall into this category you've done nothing but attack the poster and not the post.


Just like he was 'the father' of Adam, thats right mr. 'thank god Im an athiest'. And that tells you.. what? Because lets not forget, youve been waving this question around like some sort of victory flag 'proving the Trinity' for some time now. Seems to me you have human traits mixed with those of.. welll.. God (again), which would happen quite often when you mistake Man with God. God fertilizing Mary does not make God the biological father, and it certainly doesnt prove Jesus's Godhood. God fertilizing Sarah didnt mean thesame.

Contrary to your tendentious belief 'Muslims limit the power of God', they, as well the whole of Judaism, as well as myself, contest the veracity of such theology. Not because it is supposed 'God cannot do such things', but simply because it is supposed it simply isnt true, simply because it goes against what every Prophet taught. In actual fact, its more or less the direct antithesis to what was taught (to Abraham, Moses, al Mustafa, as well as all other Prophets).

Its like me claiming it is evident truth God put Donald Trump in office to save Israel.. You contending that (and rightly so), with me subsequently exclaiming "Why do you limit the power of God?"

Quote

You fall into this category you've done nothing but attack the poster and not the post.

Oh man.. :blink:

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hetrodoxly
18 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:


Just like he was 'the father' of Adam, thats right mr. 'thank god Im an athiest'. And that tells you.. what? Because lets not forget, youve been waving this question around like some sort of victory flag 'proving the Trinity' for some time now. Seems to me you have human traits mixed with those of.. welll.. God (again), which would happen quite often when you mistake Man with God. God fertilizing Mary does not make God the biological father, and it certainly doesnt prove Jesus's Godhood. God fertilizing Sarah didnt mean thesame.

Contrary to your tendentious belief 'Muslims limit the power of God', they, as well the whole of Judaism, as well as myself, contest the veracity of such theology. Not because it is supposed 'God cannot do such things', but simply because it is supposed it simply isnt true, simply because it goes against what every Prophet taught. In actual fact, its more or less the direct antithesis to what was taught (to Abraham, Moses, al Mustafa, as well as all other Prophets).

Its like me claiming it is evident truth God put Donald Trump in office to save Israel.. You contending that (and rightly so), with me subsequently exclaiming "Why do you limit the power of God?"

Oh man.. :blink:

Can god square a circle no, is "all powerful" yes, he planted the seed in Mary's belly,

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hetrodoxly
36 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

Its like me claiming it is evident truth God put Donald Trump in office to save Israel.. You contending that (and rightly so), with me subsequently exclaiming "Why do you limit the power of God?"

No it's not. i know you don't know the mind of god no matter what Muslims claim.

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aztek

this video is from 1986, this is their goal for usa, i have no doubt the same applies to europe

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Farmer77
4 minutes ago, aztek said:

this video is from 1986, this is their goal for usa, i have no doubt the same applies to europe

You know that was basically a standard Christian sermon with the titles swapped right?

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RavenHawk
On 3/23/2019 at 6:48 AM, Phaeton80 said:

Whats your point?

Christ, like Adam, was a creation of God, yes.

"Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them. Then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. She said, 'I seek refuge from you to God Most Gracious! Do not come near me, if you fear God!' He said, 'No, I am only a messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a holy son.' She said, 'How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?' He said, 'So (it will be). Your Lord says, 'That is easy for Me, and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men, and a Mercy from Us. It is a matter (so) decreed'" (19:16-21, the Chapter of Mary)

"Behold! The angels said, 'Oh Mary! God has chosen you and purified you, chosen you above the women of all nations. Oh Mary! Worship your Lord devoutly. Prostrate yourself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down'" (3:42-43).

And (remember) she who guarded her chastity. We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples (21:91). [While describing people who were good examples for others] "...And Mary, the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity. And We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit. She testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants)" (66:12).

“O Mary, Verily God gives you glad tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary – held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and will be one of those who are nearest to God.” (3:45)

 

And what’s your point?  Nothing here indicates that GOD created Jesus.  Along with 21 & 66, there is:

 

34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” 35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:34-35)

 

We see “Breathed spirit into” and in another it is “will overshadow you”.  Neither are a direct reference to ‘create’, but certainly describes the same thing.

 

I’ve presented this before, but I will expand on it.  This is very important concept to grasp in order to understand GOD.  Are you familiar with the story of Flatland by AE Abbott?  It is a story of a person from the 3D world that travels to the 2D world and describes the events that follow, perceptions and experiences.  To start off, let’s quickly look at the realms of the two worlds.  The 2D world has only two dimensions, X-axis & Y-axis (length and width).  The 3D world adds the dimension along the Z-axis (height).  This creates different perspectives.

 

Now let’s look at a basic concept in the perception of both.  If you ask a 2D person, what direction is ‘UP’, they will respond with either the X- or Y- axis.  You ask a 3D person and his response will be the Z-axis.  Try to explain that direction to the 2D person.  How can the 3D person explain to the 2D person what his concept of ‘UP’ means?  You can’t.  It is beyond their understanding or empirical proof.  The 2D world has no reference to understand the Z-axis.  An intelligent 2D person can admit that there is a concept beyond his perceptions.  Mathematically, at least 11 dimensions have been theorized.  How would a person from 11D explain what ‘UP’ means to them to someone in the 3D world?

 

People in the 2D world are polygons or lines.  To an untrained eye, people in 2D world would all appear like a line, but with polygons, one can discern the shape via “depth” perception (with most polygons, the ends would be at a different distance than the central section).  So when a 3D person steps into the 2D world what happens?  If the person was to pass through the plane, it would look like the cross sections of an MRI.  To the 2D person, the 3D person would appear as a strange oscillating polygon.

 

In the 2D world a very long line would be a nearly unsurmountable obstacle.  One could only go around one end or the other.  The 3D person could just step over.  But how would that look to someone in the 2D world?  As the 3D person steps over the line (out of the plane), they would completely disappear from view and then reappear on the other side.  The 2D people would claim that a miracle occurred.  Did a miracle occur or just something that the 2D people cannot perceive or prove? 

 

If the 2D and 3D persons were standing outside the 2D person’s home, the 3D person could look into a locked cabinet in that house and see a book in that cabinet.  He could reach into that cabinet from outside of the plane and grab the book and hand it to the 2D person.  The 2D person can only call it a miracle as he has no basis to understand what happened.

 

Let’s take this one step further.  The 3D person can ‘look’ inside of anyone in 2D world and know their inner being.  The 3D person could “breathe his spirit” into the 2D person or that the 3D person “overshadows” them.  There’s no creation going on.  GOD who exists beyond that 11th Dimension would have such abilities that are beyond our comprehension.  GOD knows our inner being.  We look or point up when referring to GOD because we lack in perception.  We need to look to our inner self to find GOD.  He’s not ‘out there’, he’s inside us all.

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Phaeton80
Posted (edited)

"Man received his life from a distinct act of Divine inbreathing; certainly not an in-breathing of atmospheric air, but an inflatus from the Ruach Elohim, or Spirit of God"

The phrase 'breath of life' is translated from נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים (nishmat chayyim) and נִשְׁמַת־רוּחַ חַיִּים (nishmat ruach chayyim) in the Hebrew Septuagint. Both terms are interchangeable.


Adam

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (chayyim / ruach); and man became a living soul." [Bible Gen 2:7]

"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him." [Quran 15:29]



Mary/Jesus

"And (remember) she who guarded her chastity. We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples." [Quran 21:91]

"God miraculously transferred his Son’s life (chayyim / ruach) to the womb of Mary, causing her to conceive a child." [Bible Luke 1:35]



In referral to an earlier mentioned evident 'proof':

"I and the Father Are One." [John 10:30]

"But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit." [Cor 6:17]



..Must say, I really appreciate your positive - that is to say not typically negative, abrasive and insulting - tone. I am familiar with flatland, but I refuse to use that concept to mystically and implcitly interpret ground shaking precepts which were not heralded by any prophet before, during or after the Gospels.. and find their origin centuries after the earthly life of Christ (and started with a mass murderer of early Christians turned self proclaimed apostle based on a personal vision no one can confirm / corroborate).

 

Edited by Phaeton80

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aztek

Image may contain: 1 person, smiling, outdoor

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RavenHawk
On 3/26/2019 at 2:37 PM, Phaeton80 said:

"Man received his life from a distinct act of Divine inbreathing; certainly not an in-breathing of atmospheric air, but an inflatus from the Ruach Elohim, or Spirit of God"

The phrase 'breath of life' is translated from נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים (nishmat chayyim) and נִשְׁמַת־רוּחַ חַיִּים (nishmat ruach chayyim) in the Hebrew Septuagint. Both terms are interchangeable.


Adam

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (chayyim / ruach); and man became a living soul." [Bible Gen 2:7]

"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him." [Quran 15:29]



Mary/Jesus

"And (remember) she who guarded her chastity. We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples." [Quran 21:91]

"God miraculously transferred his Son’s life (chayyim / ruach) to the womb of Mary, causing her to conceive a child." [Bible Luke 1:35]



In referral to an earlier mentioned evident 'proof':

"I and the Father Are One." [John 10:30]

"But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit." [Cor 6:17]

You have the syntax ok but not the understanding.  Ruach and Haim can be interchangeable.  However, the situation behind the creation of Adam and the birth of Jesus are two different functions of GOD's Spirit.  Indeed, with Adam, there was an act of creation where GOD’s spirit sparked life into Adam (creating Haim).  With Jesus, Jesus *IS* the spirit of GOD.  In some sense, it was more like possession as opposed to creation.  Ruach Elohim inhabited the fetus that would become Jesus.

 

..Must say, I really appreciate your positive - that is to say not typically negative, abrasive and insulting - tone. I am familiar with flatland, but I refuse to use that concept to mystically and implcitly interpret ground shaking precepts which were not heralded by any prophet before, during or after the Gospels.. and find their origin centuries after the earthly life of Christ (and started with a mass murderer of early Christians turned self proclaimed apostle based on a personal vision no one can confirm / corroborate).

Talk about being arrogant.  My tone is in kind.  If you don’t like it then change your approach.  If you want to understand such ground shaking precepts then this concept from Flatland is a way to do it.  Refusing to use something that might bring enlightenment is pretty much the definition of a closed mind.  There are hundreds of prophecies in the Old Testament laying the groundwork for Jesus.  There’s a stat somewhere that states that for any particular person to fulfill just a handful of prophecies is like 1 in 100 quadrillion.  How many hundreds has Jesus fulfilled?  The whole concept of sacrifice began with establishing animal sacrifice, going back to Moses.  The frustration of thousands of years to show that mere animal sacrifice was insufficient for salvation, that only through the blood of Jesus does one find eternal life.  Boy!  You just can’t get off the fact that Paul was a brute.  What you fail to see is that through Jesus, even he was able to change and serve Christ.

 

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Phaeton80
36 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

You have the syntax ok but not the understanding.  Ruach and Haim can be interchangeable.  However, the situation behind the creation of Adam and the birth of Jesus are two different functions of GOD's Spirit.  Indeed, with Adam, there was an act of creation where GOD’s spirit sparked life into Adam (creating Haim).  With Jesus, Jesus *IS* the spirit of GOD.  In some sense, it was more like possession as opposed to creation.  Ruach Elohim inhabited the fetus that would become Jesus.


DId I. And you state this based on what, flatland? Were going around in circles here. You keep defending this ground shaking religious concept without any concrete (scriptural) basing and in its stead refer to three shadows from a cube, as well as a satirical novel from 1884 (flatland) to reconcile your scriptural interpretation in this context. 

So in your mind, God possessed Jesus, and Jesus communicated with his possession when talking to 'the One who send him', or was it the possession (God the Son) who talked to God the Father?

Please be so kind as to respond to both.

 

Talk about being arrogant.  My tone is in kind.  If you don’t like it then change your approach.  If you want to understand such ground shaking precepts then this concept from Flatland is a way to do it.  Refusing to use something that might bring enlightenment is pretty much the definition of a closed mind.  There are hundreds of prophecies in the Old Testament laying the groundwork for Jesus.  There’s a stat somewhere that states that for any particular person to fulfill just a handful of prophecies is like 1 in 100 quadrillion.  How many hundreds has Jesus fulfilled?  The whole concept of sacrifice began with establishing animal sacrifice, going back to Moses.  The frustration of thousands of years to show that mere animal sacrifice was insufficient for salvation, that only through the blood of Jesus does one find eternal life.  Boy!  You just can’t get off the fact that Paul was a brute.  What you fail to see is that through Jesus, even he was able to change and serve Christ.

Maybe you should try and 'explain' this to any Rabbi, and see if he 'understands' it. Please be so kind as to provide the hundreds of prophecies laying the groundwork for the Trinity, that is to say God posessing a human being, entering His own creation, because thats what were taling about.

What you fail to see, is that the statement 'Paul through Jesus was able to change and serve Christ' is utterly arbitrary, and it remains that he is the source of the divergence from Judaism, and was competing with James the Just - brother of Jesus - who preached the opposite.

Its like defending a known mass murderer in court with evidence of a 'life changing personal vision' (no one can corroborate) and the statement: "through the power of Jesus he was healed from his murderous tendencies, dont question the power of God.." Only to demand thesame should be made public prosecutor because of that. I understand your 'argument' (through Jesus, even he was able to change and serve Christ) works for you because you have believed in this for a long long time. For anyone else however, its hardly convincing, to the complete contrary.

 

 

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