Farmer77 Posted March 13, 2019 #26 Share Posted March 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, susieice said: Boeing and the NTSB are in Ethiopia to help with the black boxes, but Ethiopia has told them they want the UK to do it. This is according to the Wall Street Journal. You can't read the whole article but I'll post the link. I can understand why they would want the download done by an independent party. I understand the technical aspects of wanting to bring in the aircraft manufacturer but the optics of them and the NTSB swooping in are just terrible. Good on Ethiopia, at a minimum having the 3rd party look should kill some conspiracy mongering before it gets a chance to start. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted March 13, 2019 #27 Share Posted March 13, 2019 6 minutes ago, Farmer77 said: I understand the technical aspects of wanting to bring in the aircraft manufacturer but the optics of them and the NTSB swooping in are just terrible. Good on Ethiopia, at a minimum having the 3rd party look should kill some conspiracy mongering before it gets a chance to start. Boeing has a lot at stake here. An independent review is exactly what is needed here. I sure hope nothing else happens with this aircraft. A brand new plane and 2 crashes in 6 months just doesn't happen. There was a remark made in one of the links I posted where it was said how US pilots are the best in the world and the planes would remain in use here. What an impertinent thing to say! Probably was intended to make us feel better but it rubbed me the wrong way. Oh well. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted March 13, 2019 #28 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Far too many good people lost in this sad event. Many of them associated with the UN. Deepest sympathy to their families and friends. https://www.businessinsider.com/ethiopia-airlines-victims-aboard-crashed-boeing-737-max-named-2019-3#the-ceo-of-hospitality-company-tamarind-group-jonathan-seex-17 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted March 13, 2019 #29 Share Posted March 13, 2019 1 hour ago, susieice said: Boeing has a lot at stake here. An independent review is exactly what is needed here. I sure hope nothing else happens with this aircraft. A brand new plane and 2 crashes in 6 months just doesn't happen. There was a remark made in one of the links I posted where it was said how US pilots are the best in the world and the planes would remain in use here. What an impertinent thing to say! Probably was intended to make us feel better but it rubbed me the wrong way. Oh well. I'm not sure if you've posted anything from Forbes. The following article has a fleeting comparison of pilots in the respective countries. Quote The Boeing 737 MAX: Is The Problem With The Plane Or The Pilots? ... While Ethiopian has a strong reputation for safety, the airline has been expanding rapidly at a time of rising demand for pilots worldwide, and experts have questioned the experience of those at the controls of Flight 302. Ethiopian Airlines said the copilot, Ahmed Nur Mohammod Nur, only had 200 hours of flight time, a sharp contrast with the U.S., where 1,500 hours is required to take the second seat on a commercial plane. ... https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2019/03/11/the-boeing-737-max-crashes-is-there-a-problem-with-the-plane-or-the-pilots/#706dc98a584a 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast Posted March 13, 2019 #30 Share Posted March 13, 2019 2 hours ago, Golden Duck said: Ahmed Nur Mohammod Nur, only had 200 hours of flight time, a sharp contrast with the U.S., where 1,500 hours is required to take the second seat on a commercial plane. I dont see why the "only" 200hrs should be an issue. A pilot who is striving a copilot certification is starting in the cockpit of commercial airplanes at zero hours, right? So the questions are, was the Ethiopian pilot already certified as Co and/or how much hours are required to become an Ethiopian Co? Above all, and no matter about the status of the person on the 2nd seat, the captain is the responsible person for the flight. I`ve checked about the 1500hrs issue and found a FAA press release from 2013. The increasing of the qualification requirements for copilots in the US was triggered by the Colgan Air Flight 3407 accident ,which was caused by the Co. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer77 Posted March 13, 2019 #31 Share Posted March 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, toast said: I dont see why the "only" 200hrs should be an issue. A pilot who is striving a copilot certification is starting in the cockpit of commercial airplanes at zero hours, right? Well you have no hours in the cockpit of an airliner but the problem is the article is saying that guy only had 200hrs of flight time period, in any airframe. 7 minutes ago, toast said: Above all, and no matter about the status of the person on the 2nd seat, the captain is the responsible person for the flight. True but cockpit resource management is vital to safe flight operations and part of that is being able to depend on your copilot as a valuable resource. At only 200hrs of flight time IDK how valuable a resource anyone would be when the stuff hits the fan in any airframe, let alone an overpowered 737. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast Posted March 13, 2019 #32 Share Posted March 13, 2019 8 minutes ago, Farmer77 said: Well you have no hours in the cockpit of an airliner but the problem is the article is saying that guy only had 200hrs of flight time period, in any airframe. But by math, every Co starts at zero hrs. Do they have to attend to flights on a third seat in the cockpit? I have no idea. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer77 Posted March 13, 2019 #33 Share Posted March 13, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, toast said: But by math, every Co starts at zero hrs. Do they have to attend to flights on a third seat in the cockpit? I have no idea. Again though zero hours in just that airframe. Here in the US to get in that seat you have already flown 1500 hours in all kinds of conditions and had all kinds of experiences, just not in the big frames. Flight simulators is the fist step in training. Then they receive a "check ride" with an FAA certified instructor to pass flight school and receive their certification in that aircraft type. Edited March 13, 2019 by Farmer77 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted March 13, 2019 #34 Share Posted March 13, 2019 (edited) I know from the articles that the pilot had over 8,000 hours of flight time. He had told air traffic control that he couldn't control the plane and was going to return to the airport. Just heard on the news that Canada has also banned the plane. Edited March 13, 2019 by susieice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted March 13, 2019 #35 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Business Insider is also reporting on the copilot. US airlines changed from 250 to 1500 in 2013. European airlines require 500 hours. https://www.businessinsider.com/ethiopian-airlines-flight-302-co-pilot-200-flight-hours-2019-3 I don't think this caused the crash though. It may have been a contributing factor, but he wasn't on the first plane that went down. I found this about how a copilot is trained but it only refers to the US and Canada. I don't know about other airlines. https://www.airlinejobfinder.com/members/pilot-careers/airline-pilots-info/copilot/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted March 13, 2019 #36 Share Posted March 13, 2019 (edited) Here's an article on Canada. At least two US pilots filed incident reports about the 737 MAX. They also mentioned lack of training on the new plane. That's in the second link. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/garneau-boeing-ethiopia-crash-1.5054234 https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/13/world/africa/boeing-ethiopian-airlines-plane-crash.html Edited March 13, 2019 by susieice 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast Posted March 13, 2019 #37 Share Posted March 13, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, susieice said: Just heard on the news that Canada has also banned the plane. Canada banned the MAX9 as well. CNBC Edited March 13, 2019 by toast 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted March 13, 2019 #38 Share Posted March 13, 2019 1 minute ago, toast said: Canada banned the MAX9 as well. They say they have some sort of new satellite information that they shared with the US this morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted March 13, 2019 #39 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Just found this interview with the former CEO of American Airlines. It's interesting in that he expresses his opinion about how the black boxes haven't been sent out to be downloaded, particularly by the FAA. If Ethiopia wants the UK to do the download, then they go to the UK. I'm not big on conspiracy theories but what's the big deal here? https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/13/former-american-airlines-ceo-if-pilots-say-737-max-is-safe-to-fly-i-believe-it.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted March 13, 2019 #40 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Ethiopia is adamant. Those black boxes are going to Europe. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/03/ethiopian-airlines-send-plane-black-boxes-europe-190313134112385.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted March 13, 2019 #41 Share Posted March 13, 2019 (edited) Boeing has just agreed to ground the 737 MAX 8 and MAX 9 in the US. https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/boeing-737-max-8-ethiopia-airlines-crash/index.html Some news is reporting that Trump signed an executive order grounding the plane. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/13/boeing-shares-fall-after-report-says-us-expected-to-ground-737-max-fleet.html Edited March 13, 2019 by susieice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted March 13, 2019 #42 Share Posted March 13, 2019 According to our local news, Trump must have reviewed what the Canadians said and grounded the planes. Any in the air will go on to it's destination and then be grounded. This just happened within the last hour. http://www.wfmz.com/news/ap-top-stories/trump-us-grounding-boeing-737-max-8-9-after-ethiopia-crash/1058426262 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted March 14, 2019 #43 Share Posted March 14, 2019 (edited) What US pilots were saying for months about the 737 MAX. https://www.businessinsider.com/pilots-complained-about-boeing-737-max-for-months-before-latest-crash-2019-3?utm_content=buffercd2da&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer-cars&fbclid=IwAR0lzdydZHCeAaiAPui3464aflHf7G1jqcjKnG_V7lTUs5w7S-hUs3PcRa0 Edited March 14, 2019 by susieice 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted March 14, 2019 #44 Share Posted March 14, 2019 (edited) Heard something on the news and looked it up. According to Africa News, Ethiopia wanted the black boxes to go to Germany. Germany rejected doing the probe because they could not process the new type of recorder that's used in the MAX. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-airplane-germany/germany-says-will-not-analyse-ethiopian-airlines-black-box-idUSKCN1QU2HG So the boxes are now in France. Air France is doing the analysis. https://www.africanews.com/2019/03/14/ethiopian-airlines-crash-all-you-need-to-know/ Edited March 14, 2019 by susieice 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted March 14, 2019 #45 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Man who missed Ethiopian Airlines flight shares emotional post A Greek man said he missed the Ethiopian Airlines flight that crashed just after taking off from Addis Ababa by mere minutes, in a Facebook post that has now been shared thousands of times. In a post called "My Lucky Day," Antonis Mavropoulos shared an image of what appears to be his boarding pass and says he arrived at his gate just after boarding had finished on Sunday morning. https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/11/africa/ethiopian-airlines-crash-missed-facebook-post-scli-intl/index.html 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted March 20, 2019 #46 Share Posted March 20, 2019 French aviation authorities have found clear links in the Ethiopian crash to the Indonesian one. https://6abc.com/travel/french-experts-see-clear-links-in-boeing-crashes-/5201434/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted March 20, 2019 #47 Share Posted March 20, 2019 (edited) This is a most interesting article. Apparently, the US Transportation Department is investigating the FAA and Boeing. Boeing rushed the release of the plane and was allowed to self-police. https://www.aviationcv.com/aviation-blog/2019/shocking-facts-boeing-737max-crash Edited March 20, 2019 by susieice 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted March 23, 2019 #48 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Airlines are beginning to cancel orders for the 737 MAX. https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/22/business/boeing-737-max-garuda-cancel/index.html https://www.seattletimes.com/business/airline-threats-to-cancel-boeing-max-orders-may-just-be-a-bargaining-tactic/ The FBI has also joined the investigation into the FAA and Boeing. https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/fbi-joining-criminal-investigation-into-certification-of-boeing-737-max/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted March 23, 2019 #49 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Shot in the arm for Airbus, you'd think. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted March 23, 2019 #50 Share Posted March 23, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Habitat said: Shot in the arm for Airbus, you'd think. Yep. That's why Boeing rushed this plane out. Airbus had just released a new one that airlines liked. There's a whole list of links about how this plane didn't have safety features and if you wanted them, it cost extra. ABC News reported on that tonight. I wonder how this investigation is going to end up. Edited March 23, 2019 by susieice 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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