How much proof is enough?

[hereticspl]

Hi again all you um forum folk I have a question for you. With flat earthers getting some media attention of late I wanted to delve into your collective psyche and try to understand a basic question. How much evidence is enough? What kind of proof do you need to be presented with before you will accept new information? With climate change nipping at our ankles I dont think there has ever been a more pertinent time to explore the difference between belief and willful ignorance.

[SHaYap]

'Sufficiently solid' should suffice

~

[hereticspl]

What is sufficient?

[SHaYap]

'Solid'

~

[zep73]

15 minutes ago, hereticspl said:

How much evidence is enough?

For flatearthers they need to go out into space themselves. But I guess the most sceptic of them will find some reason to think they were mislead somehow.

For real: Nothing can convince a true believer. Nothing!

[Grandpa Greenman]

Evidence and testing that falls in line with scientific method.

[zep73]

2 minutes ago, Grandpa Greenman said:

Evidence and testing that falls in line with scientific method.

You haven't met a "flatearther" yet, it seems... 

[hereticspl]

There are people who believe something regardless of how 'solid' the evidence is(flat earthers) and there are people who believe something even when there is no evidence at all (pretty much every religious person). Should we be working to find a way to convince them or leave them to their beliefs?

[zep73]

11 minutes ago, hereticspl said:

There are people who believe something regardless of how 'solid' the evidence is(flat earthers) and there are people who believe something even when there is no evidence at all (pretty much every religious person). Should we be working to find a way to convince them or leave them to their beliefs?

From experience I'd say it's a waste of time to try to convince them.

[Golden Duck]

25 minutes ago, hereticspl said:

There are people who believe something regardless of how 'solid' the evidence is(flat earthers) and there are people who believe something even when there is no evidence at all (pretty much every religious person). Should we be working to find a way to convince them or leave them to their beliefs?

Convince them for what purpose?

[Aquila King]

1 hour ago, hereticspl said:

Hi again all you um forum folk I have a question for you. With flat earthers getting some media attention of late I wanted to delve into your collective psyche and try to understand a basic question. How much evidence is enough? What kind of proof do you need to be presented with before you will accept new information? With climate change nipping at our ankles I dont think there has ever been a more pertinent time to explore the difference between belief and willful ignorance.

For many people, it will never be enough.

So long as we humans emotionally identify with certain beliefs, we will never accept information alternative to our beliefs, as any alternative is psychologically perceived as a personal attack.

While I'm definately not one to argue in opposition to the fact that there is an objectively measurable reality that we can discover, I'm also one to argue that human psychology often runs in opposition to discovering the truth of reality in many ways unfortunately... 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

1 hour ago, hereticspl said:

Hi again all you um forum folk I have a question for you. With flat earthers getting some media attention of late I wanted to delve into your collective psyche and try to understand a basic question. How much evidence is enough? What kind of proof do you need to be presented with before you will accept new information? With climate change nipping at our ankles I dont think there has ever been a more pertinent time to explore the difference between belief and willful ignorance.

I think I agree with you there. And I really wish we all can get on the same level in how we do this, that is start practicing how we can save this planet!!

Though, it's interesting how you have this. I thought this was one of those threads from believers asking this to make you believe what they do. Now, I see it's the opposite of that. 

I will agree with some here, I don't think all of the proof in the world will do it. I think there is some who have a hard time accepting it, even if they started choking on intense smog right there on the spot. 

Though, I think not all of them are going to be stubborn. I think a good many will be stunned and probably realize what is the truth. 

Now, I see how (and agree) that it's probably just as well to leave them in their own little world. But, I think you made a good point. If they are interfering with trying to clean up this planet, I think there has to be some intense creative thinking to find a why to convince them. I think it's going to take a lot. But, I think the goal is a good run and one that is something we're desperate to take care of. 

[bison]

The process of deciding if a given amount of evidence is sufficient is a collective one. Science very long ago satisfied itself that the Earth is a sphere. There is a scientific consensus on this issue. The same can be said of global warming, although there are still a very few hold-outs.

The people who believe that the Earth is flat, or that we didn't visit the Moon, or that vaccinations causes autism dismiss the scientific evidence, in favor of already discredited claims, or rumors. Somewhere along the line, some people got the strange notion that they could make up their own facts, and that the resulting opinions were just as good as anyone else's, even someone much better informed than they are.

It's a pernicious, presumptuous attitude, lacking in reason and humility. As recent accounts have shown, it can even be physically harmful. Measles had been virtually wiped out in the United States. Those who refuse to accept vaccinations have become a source of contagion, and measles is starting to re-establish itself here.     

[Stubbly_Dooright]

50 minutes ago, hereticspl said:

There are people who believe something regardless of how 'solid' the evidence is(flat earthers) and there are people who believe something even when there is no evidence at all (pretty much every religious person). Should we be working to find a way to convince them or leave them to their beliefs?

If it's interfering with cleaning up this planet, where the quality of our lives are concerned, like I said earlier, I think we do need to be working to find a way.  

[freetoroam]

1 hour ago, hereticspl said:

How much evidence is enough? What kind of proof do you need to be presented with before you will accept new information?

Coming from which side of the fence?

Numerous times we have people make claims with nothing to back it up and numerous times we have tried to explain to the believers,  it is NOT down to the non believer to come up with the evidence to disprove it. 

If someone makes a claim or presents a video or photo as proof, it needs to be solid enough to verify the claim.

I have lost count as to how many hard core believers have made a claim with no evidence to back it, bar their own belief and then asked us to prove it is not true. 

 

[TigerBright19]

What is 'mind'?

What is 'matter'?

 

Homer Simpson tells us:

 

[Grandpa Greenman]

1 minute ago, sci-nerd said:

You haven't met a "flatearther" yet, it seems... 

You ask what I need for proof. Who knows what goes on in the minds of flatearther. My roommate is a hollowearther, same kind of mindset as the flatearthers. First he will tell you everything you were taught or been told is a lie.  Then he watches endless conspiracy videos, who affirm at the beginning of every video everything you have been told is a lie.  After sitting there watching this drivel for an hour, I ask, "Is it possible this guy is lying? I mean, if everything I been told is lie, then it is logical that this could be a lie, too."  "No, listen to what he is saying." I listen and point out,  "But the physics his is talking doesn't work."  Then I am told,  "That is because all the physic you been taught is a lie..."   

[Jodie.Lynne]

2 hours ago, hereticspl said:

How much evidence is enough? What kind of proof do you need to be presented with before you will accept new information?

A young monk asked his teacher:

Master, can one pray hard enough to make water run uphill?

"Of course."

Master how hard must one pray?

"Hard enough to make water run uphill."

 

As to the question of what is sufficient, I would say that it would be evidence strong enough to convince me I was in error in my beliefs.

That is a purely personal judgement. 

As to why people will cling to the most outlandish of beliefs, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, I have no firkin clue.

[hereticspl]

I think when it comes down to the flat earth society a lot comes down to the psychological need some people have to feel like they're part of a very elite group more than an actual belief in a flat earth. Like an ego trip "look how special I am" type of thing. Hence why such a small group gets as much attention as it does, you will almost never find a flat earther who doesn't want to tell you about it.

[hereticspl]

5 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

A young monk asked his teacher:

Master, can one pray hard enough to make water run uphill?

"Of course."

Master how hard must one pray?

"Hard enough to make water run uphill."

 

As to the question of what is sufficient, I would say that it would be evidence strong enough to convince me I was in error in my beliefs.

That is a purely personal judgement. 

As to why people will cling to the most outlandish of beliefs, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, I have no firkin clue.

Could you give a hypothetical scenario of what would constitute as sufficient evidence for you personally. I won't judge you I'm just probing minds.

[Jodie.Lynne]

1 minute ago, hereticspl said:

Could you give a hypothetical scenario of what would constitute as sufficient evidence for you personally.

That is a tough nut to crack.

Taking the biggest first, god or gods. I really honestly have no idea what would convince me. BUT, if there is a deity that knows all, it would surely know exactly what it would take.

UFO', aliens among us, and sasquatch? Hard physical proof. A ship landing in front of the U.N. building. The living evidence of a captured bigfoot, or the corpse thereof. Preferably the former, since I abhor senseless killing of wildlife, whether real or imagined.

Flat Earth? Y'all better show me the underside of the disk.

Hollow Earth? Show me a legitimate opening and an unedited video log of the journey.

Time travel? Bring me the winning ticket from the next Powerball drawing. I'll even give you the $2.

Reptilian Overlords? Show me the corpse of one, not some video glitch that you claim is 'proof' 

[hereticspl]

I'm starting to think that there is a psychological condition that is responsible for the inability to let go of beliefs and accept new ideas. Does anyone know if theres a name for this? Wait I found it https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/a-behavioral-scientist-explains-how-to-deal-with-people-who-believe-things-that-are-just-not-true.html

Edited March 18, 2019 by hereticspl

[Jodie.Lynne]

Willful ignorance?

Self deception?

I'm not sure if there is a technical term for it.

[freetoroam]

27 minutes ago, hereticspl said:

I think when it comes down to the flat earth society a lot comes down to the psychological need some people have to feel like they're part of a very elite group more than an actual belief in a flat earth. Like an ego trip "look how special I am" type of thing. Hence why such a small group gets as much attention as it does, you will almost never find a flat earther who doesn't want to tell you about it.

Yes, but they are not special, just foolish.

The attention they get is because people are not questioning the claims, they are questioning their minds. 

[Jodie.Lynne]

17 minutes ago, Goddess of the Mist said:

If anything, the flat earthers care more about the environment then the average person

What makes you say this? I would think that they would be less inclined, since many F.E's are also literal bible believers.