How much proof is enough?

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, Golden Duck said:

Meh...

After a particularly bad I pulled into a car-park. There was a lady walking around with a parking voucher; and she gave it to me.

At that time and in that context, I took it as a sign of hope. 

I've since paid it forward - it didn't cost me anything. It doesn't make me an angel. 

What are you saying here? That everyone's experiences are like yours (simple luck, chance, or natural coincidence)  and we simply make of them as we will ? 

[Jodie.Lynne]

4 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

What are you saying here? That everyone's experiences are like yours (simple luck, chance, or natural coincidence)  and we simply make of them as we will ? 

yep.

[Mr Walker]

9 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

So we're up to ~3 billion people who claim to have had a physical interaction with gods/angels?  You have many times made your argument (from popularity) about how arrogant it is for someone to doubt billions of testimonials.  So let's turn that around, what are the odds that billions of people have had genuine physical interactions with gods and there is still not one piece of semi-decent evidence for any of it?  (That true fact, that there's no good evidence, fits perfectly with billions of people misinterpreting their experiences by the way...)

No That is not my argument at all. In discussions about belief i point out that about 90% of modern humans are believers 

In conversations abut physic;a contact with gods angels etc i pont out that quit a high percentage (30-40% overall) of modern humans claim to have had a personal  contact or experience .

One point you can take from that is this; many humans have these experiences. A sceptic has to discount or discredit them 

To really "get" this debate, one has to truly appreciate both sides of an argument and where the y are coming form 

yes it is arrogant and illogical and foolish for one person to disbelieve billions of other humans and maintain that  are right in their disbelief,  and everyone else is wrong

There ARE billions of pieces of evidence for such contact. Lives saved. Lives changed   

Just because you didn't witness an event doesn't mean it  did not happen.  

Again, you are dismissing each and everyone of these personal  experiences, based on your own  wish for them to be untrue.

  It can be hard to believe using only faith, and i appreciate that, without evidences  some people simply cannot, while others will not

Many of those people HAVE physical evidences  but like almost everything in a life, they cannot be shown or demonstrated to those who were not there  because the y were contextual, and located in a time and space which is now passed. eg I once had a dolphin jump clear over me while i was in a small boat.  i was alone but i was splashed with water drops from  the dolphin and saw it re-enter the sea  A contact with a god or an angel can be like that; real, indisputable, yet not capable of being proven  Should i doubt my dolphin experience because no one else observed it ? 

Others have an experience, and build on it in their mind, to construct a narrative which comforts them   

[Jodie.Lynne]

3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Others have an experience, and build on it in their mind, to construct a narrative which comforts them   

BINGO!

 

Like gods, or angels, or aliens.....

Thank you.

[jmccr8]

35 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Joke, Joyce ! That you appear to take it as an attempted proof, well, what can be said.....

Hi Habitat

I was joking, maybe I should have used more qualifiers.

jmccr8

[Mr Walker]

6 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Documentation, please.

Your first experience with such testing was because you identified with the character that John Travolta played in the movie Michal. How did you present your concerns to these professionals and did you tell them the same story you are telling us?

Unexplained Mysteries is more than a storytelling platform although there are parts of the forum that are specific to storytelling, the premise for many of us is to examine the evidence given. Evidence, fact, and proof are debated based on validity rather than the interpretation of what those words mean and this seems to be an ongoing problem for some storytellers.

jmccr8

Dont need documentation 

It is YOU who is asking for it because you disbelieve That is your problem not mine. 

I am just outlining how i know in have no mental illnesses etc 

Indeed my medical records will show i am one of a small percentage of human beings who never get depressed or anxious 

You can put that down to the luck of my genes,   the strength of my parents love, or to the grace of god  

I just got a referral, went and saw them, and described my experience I talked a lot about the context around it and how i had investigated and checked the evidences available.

Actually yes almost identical to what i have said over the years on  UM  but on a more professional basis  I asked them if there was any cause for concern  i was almost certain there was not but i always get any health issues checked early 

At that time Phenomenum was still in the future so i couldn't reference it, but i was concerned about a brain tumour so i also had scans done which proved clear. 

At that time i also had not had decades of ongoing contact with, and protection by,  this entity, so my own understanding was much less defined.  eg i wasn't thinking of it in terms of gods or angels, but seeking answers to just what it was  

[Mr Walker]

7 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Documentation, please.

Your first experience with such testing was because you identified with the character that John Travolta played in the movie Michal. How did you present your concerns to these professionals and did you tell them the same story you are telling us?

Unexplained Mysteries is more than a storytelling platform although there are parts of the forum that are specific to storytelling, the premise for many of us is to examine the evidence given. Evidence, fact, and proof are debated based on validity rather than the interpretation of what those words mean and this seems to be an ongoing problem for some storytellers.

jmccr8

If there were transferable evidences there would be no unexplained mysteries  

Others can question and demand evidences as much as they like but the y wont get them (for that reason ) This might make them feel better and validated but proves nothing and does not diminish the potential truth of any story or experience 

On a forum like UM where it is impossible to give convincing transferable evidences; the narrative, the contexts, the story itself, is  everything  anyone will ever get .

[Habitat]

9 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

But it does begin to explain why some people care about things they don't personally believe are true which is what you have repeatedly stated is, for some unknown reason, the topic you are most concerned with.

Nope, they seem to "care" about stuff they say does not exist. God can't exist, because it doesn't perform as per advertised by the churches. Right, well let's move on to another hobby, you might think. But no, they are still loitering with intent...….

[Mr Walker]

7 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Belief and faith in myself have given me the same benefits, why do you think that I would need an external other to give credit to?

Kind of sad that this is the limit of your understanding of your fellow man.

jmccr8

I didnt say you did .

i just said that this external source of these things is available 

May posters here clearly lack   self esteem, empowerment, fulfilment etc/ 

Sure the y could find it inside themselves but many people cannot due to upbringing or circumstances.

Faith and belief offer it freely to every one who is capable of faith and belief 

Belief and faith are PART  of being human.

I don't think less of my fellow man.

I do thank that, due to the way they were raised, many people undervalue and undersell their  worth, potential, and their abilities,  and never truly try to reach their full potentials.

(In a way that  is why i was a teacher To help young people develop self confidence, self esteem, self love,  and the skills needed to be the best they could be.  

Perhaps more than any one on this forum I understand the INCREDIBLE power and potential which  every human being has within themselves.

 

[Mr Walker]

7 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

whiz

(the sound of that gif going completely  over my head  

[jmccr8]

3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Dont need documentation 

Hi Walker

Well you know how it goes for making claims, I didn't question your sanity, you did and then went on to make a claim that you are unable to support. So with no documentation, there really is no evidence of sanity you invoke the god clause of taking it on faith, you know I like you BUT,...

9 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

It is YOU who is asking for it because you disbelieve That is your problem not mine. 

Not really my problem I have never claimed to be sane or that I could prove it, you did. I really don't care if you're sane or not simply because of the entertainment value.

13 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I am just outlining how i know in have no mental illnesses etc 

Indeed my medical records will show i am one of a small percentage of human beings who never get depressed or anxious 

You can put that down to the luck of my genes,   the strength of my parents love, or to the grace of god  

I just got a referral, went and saw them, and described my experience I talked a lot about the context around it and how i had investigated and checked the evidences available.

Actually yes almost identical to what i have said over the years on  UM  but on a more professional basis  I asked them if there was any cause for concern  i was almost certain there was not but i always get any health issues checked early 

At that time Phenomenum was still in the future so i couldn't reference it, but i was concerned about a brain tumour so i also had scans done which proved clear. 

At that time i also had not had decades of ongoing contact with, and protection by,  this entity, so my own understanding was much less defined.  eg i wasn't thinking of it in terms of gods or angels, but seeking answers to just what it was  

You know I have heard that so many times I could recite it just like many of your posts, I almost think that for a joke on the future of humanity to select disciples to memorize the Walker Chronicles and pass them down through the ages in an oral tradition only just in case there is a holocaust. 

jmccr8

[Mr Walker]

7 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

This is based on your perspective, you do not know what exists outside of your sheltered mind.

jmccr8

No it is simple mathematics 

Plus; anyone who reads at least one book, several newspapers, and a couple of magazines, every day DOES develop an understanding of multiple perspectives and how and why the y are constructed from different internal and external experiences. 

 When i was about 4 my mother explained it to me as putting on different coloured spectacles, in order  to be able to see in different shades ie to see through other peoples mind and eyes.

My psych professor a t uni explained it in much more complex psycholgical  terms, as if it was a piece of incredible wisdom  and was a bit miffed when i told how my mother had already explained it to me and i had used it all my life.

  A good author gives you an insight into their own mind, but also the minds of multiple characters from all periods of human history. 

[jmccr8]

15 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

On a forum like UM where it is impossible to give convincing transferable evidences; the narrative, the contexts, the story itself, is  everything  anyone will ever get .

Hi Walker

Oh no, there are plenty of discussions that have and will continue to have people giving the documentation to support their position and then it is the responsibility of responding in like. Unfortunately, some neglect to read the links provided and still try to argue outside of the context provided or address the issues in the material that counters the premiss presented for discussion. I am involved in many other threads where neither your personal life or god are discussed.

jmccr8

 

[+Sherapy]

7 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Documentation, please.

Your first experience with such testing was because you identified with the character that John Travolta played in the movie Michal. How did you present your concerns to these professionals and did you tell them the same story you are telling us?

Unexplained Mysteries is more than a storytelling platform although there are parts of the forum that are specific to storytelling, the premise for many of us is to examine the evidence given. Evidence, fact, and proof are debated based on validity rather than the interpretation of what those words mean and this seems to be an ongoing problem for some storytellers.

jmccr8

Interesting, I didn’t know that MW was influenced by the movie Michael. That explains a lot.

[jmccr8]

17 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

May posters here clearly lack   self esteem, empowerment, fulfilment etc/ 

Sure the y could find it inside themselves but many people cannot due to upbringing or circumstances.

Hi Walker

Somewhat subjective on your part, I find many people here that are similar to myself in certain attitudes about who we are and what we mean to us. I see religion as a social activity that bonds a community and have no doubts about if everyone in a community just got together and shared their thoughts, concerns or fears with no talk of god you would have the same effect on the community.

jmccr8

[+Sherapy]

30 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

If there were transferable evidences there would be no unexplained mysteries  

Others can question and demand evidences as much as they like but the y wont get them (for that reason ) This might make them feel better and validated but proves nothing and does not diminish the potential truth of any story or experience 

On a forum like UM where it is impossible to give convincing transferable evidences; the narrative, the contexts, the story itself, is  everything  anyone will ever get .

Indeed, in most sections of UM it is slated for the unexplained, then there is the skepticism section reserved for those who want to explore the actual evidence behind the claims.. 

[jmccr8]

3 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Interesting, I didn’t know that MW was influenced by the movie Michael. That explains a lot.

Hi Sherapy

He played the character of Michal in the movie Phenomenon Walker corrected me for my error. For some reason, he identified with the character and given Walker's physical attributes Travolta likely made identifying that much easier.

jmccr8 

[+Sherapy]

23 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

No it is simple mathematics 

Plus; anyone who reads at least one book, several newspapers, and a couple of magazines, every day DOES develop an understanding of multiple perspectives and how and why the y are constructed from different internal and external experiences. 

 When i was about 4 my mother explained it to me as putting on different coloured spectacles, in order  to be able to see in different shades ie to see through other peoples mind and eyes.

My psych professor a t uni explained it in much more complex psycholgical  terms, as if it was a piece of incredible wisdom  and was a bit miffed when i told how my mother had already explained it to me and i had used it all my life.

  A good author gives you an insight into their own mind, but also the minds of multiple characters from all periods of human history. 

If you understand J’s perspective why did you only address yours?

I do not see one word in your post tthat indictates that you included or understand his perspective.

It sounds like you are good at p***ing people off, might be a hobby of yours. Lol 

 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Sherapy

[jmccr8]

29 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

whiz

(the sound of that gif going completely  over my head  

Hi Walker

It could be many things like the spin people put on Jesus or gods.

jmccr8

[+Sherapy]

51 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Dont need documentation 

It is YOU who is asking for it because you disbelieve That is your problem not mine. 

I am just outlining how i know in have no mental illnesses etc 

Indeed my medical records will show i am one of a small percentage of human beings who never get depressed or anxious 

You can put that down to the luck of my genes,   the strength of my parents love, or to the grace of god  

I just got a referral, went and saw them, and described my experience I talked a lot about the context around it and how i had investigated and checked the evidences available.

Actually yes almost identical to what i have said over the years on  UM  but on a more professional basis  I asked them if there was any cause for concern  i was almost certain there was not but i always get any health issues checked early 

At that time Phenomenum was still in the future so i couldn't reference it, but i was concerned about a brain tumour so i also had scans done which proved clear. 

At that time i also had not had decades of ongoing contact with, and protection by,  this entity, so my own understanding was much less defined.  eg i wasn't thinking of it in terms of gods or angels, but seeking answers to just what it was  

You don't always get your medical situations checked early, you posted in your own words that you let your weight get away from you when you knew you had.heart issues and you gave in to your love of food. You also let your teeth go, you told us this was why your second heart surgery was postponed due to some teeth decay. 

And, I see the early signs of the real story, you thought you had a brain tumor. This explains why you would have extensive testing.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Sherapy

[+Liquid Gardens]

54 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Yes, and yours is to be arrogant and insulting while all the while batting your eyes innocently in denial as you wrap yourself in robes of piety. Save it for the rubes.

I'm pretty sure I've never said anything insulting to you that was not in response to you first taking a swing, nor do I deny being insulting when I've been so.  You can't possibly not know that, like many people here including myself (he says in his innocent pious arrogance...), you can sometimes be a grouch; matter of fact I think I've got an old PM from you essentially admitting that very thing.  The only thing I think I could even be arrogant about is that I'm very skilled at being a smart-ass, and I don't know if you can even be arrogant about things you're not necessarily proud of.   I'm sure you've been here long enough to see the regular occurrence of the topic, 'are theists delusional', and I don't recall you needing to be helped off the fainting couch during that morass of atrocious manners.  I think it's more that you really really don't like to be disagreed with and pretty clearly don't like me, since all of our conversations are short and go the same route as this one as far as quickly descending into the negative. 

If you don't want to discuss things other than the attitude you imagine I have then don't respond to my posts, your psychoanalysis skills are off-topic.  Regardless, I'll get back to expressing my pious denial to the rubes here and I'll let you get back to your poetry, sunshine.

[jmccr8]

25 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Plus; anyone who reads at least one book, several newspapers, and a couple of magazines, every day DOES develop an understanding of multiple perspectives and how and why the y are constructed from different internal and external experiences. 

In a novice clinical sense, there is nothing like both practical and theoretical experience to make sound judgments from and it is with those peers that I can learn from.

28 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

 When i was about 4 my mother explained it to me as putting on different coloured spectacles, in order  to be able to see in different shades ie to see through other peoples mind and eyes.

Yes and just reading about rather than being there to observe and experience those other perspectives is imagination and not experience.

 

31 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

My psych professor a t uni explained it in much more complex psycholgical  terms, as if it was a piece of incredible wisdom  and was a bit miffed when i told how my mother had already explained it to me and i had used it all my life.

  A good author gives you an insight into their own mind, but also the minds of multiple characters from all periods of human history. 

Well, that says a lot about your mom or your profs don't have to jump a very high bar to get a job. Yes, an author creates characters but that does not mean that they understand the real issues about real people that they fictionalize so that you can fantasize about knowing what they think or feel.

I know that you have life experiences and don't deny that you have been active although some of your claims of proficiency are what I find questionable I still give you credit. That said you have had limited exposure to certain lifestyles and environments and make constructs for them just like you did for your god and that is not a problem for just you because you try to use them in your arguments I am not trying to be mean or say your wrong per say but that you do not have enough combined study and practical experience to make a credible argument.

jmccr8

[+Hammerclaw]

11 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I'm pretty sure I've never said anything insulting to you that was not in response to you first taking a swing, nor do I deny being insulting when I've been so.  You can't possibly not know that, like many people here including myself (he says in his innocent pious arrogance...), you can sometimes be a grouch; matter of fact I think I've got an old PM from you essentially admitting that very thing.  The only thing I think I could even be arrogant about is that I'm very skilled at being a smart-ass, and I don't know if you can even be arrogant about things you're not necessarily proud of.   I'm sure you've been here long enough to see the regular occurrence of the topic, 'are theists delusional', and I don't recall you needing to be helped off the fainting couch during that morass of atrocious manners.  I think it's more that you really really don't like to be disagreed with and pretty clearly don't like me, since all of our conversations are short and go the same route as this one as far as quickly descending into the negative. 

If you don't want to discuss things other than the attitude you imagine I have then don't respond to my posts, your psychoanalysis skills are off-topic.  Regardless, I'll get back to expressing my pious denial to the rubes here and I'll let you get back to your poetry, sunshine.

Oh, that's quite alright. Perhaps I shouldn't hold you to account for insensitivity or being oblivious to how hurtful and insulting comparing Faith to gullibility is. To be gullible is to be a fool and that's how it comes across.  Well, if you walk in a minefield, don't be surprised when one blows up in your face. Chin-chin and I'll retire to my poetry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Habitat]

1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Sherapy

He played the character of Michal in the movie Phenomenon Walker corrected me for my error. For some reason, he identified with the character and given Walker's physical attributes Travolta likely made identifying that much easier.

jmccr8 

You almost could make a movie about the Walker Phenomenon, it would belong to the genre "magical realism"

[Mr Walker]

3 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Conflating and confusing human emotional states with non-corporeal spirits now?

Just in case you are confused... Humans engage in social activities and invest a lot of emotions into those activities. "Team spirit" is a sense of comradery, shared effort towards a common goal, pride in one's own efforts and those of your teammates. Which has nothing to do with spirituality.

 

How does that equal 'spirits', 'spirituality', and other non-detectable apparitions? Or are you just stirring the mud to cloud the issue?

And, although I hate to sound like a stuck record, you would have to prove 'spirits', in the religious sense, rather than just assert their existence by bad analogy.

The abilty to feel a sense of team spirit is the same cognitive abilty as that of feeling spiritual  The words have the same root and same meaning  ie the inner feeling  a human can experience because we can sense  beauty, honour, love, compassion ( and more negative cognitive constructs)  

A religious spiritual sense or feeling is a actually a minor subset of a greater human sense of spirituality  felt even by atheists,  when we hear or see things of great Betty and power like art, music, or nature.

Will is speaking of this sense of spirituality and human spirit, not of ghosts or religious spirits  of the dead. 

There is nothing innately religious about our inner human spirit but it does allow us to develop sophisticated religious beliefs.