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crookedspiral

Atheism is incompatible with science

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Podo
22 hours ago, DieChecker said:

 

Meh. You're looking for evidence to support belief, when evidence ruins belief. The point of religion is to comfort. There's no reason to have a evidenced being to allow for comfort. Hope in an afterlife is supernatural in its entirety, so I don't know what those people would require evidence either.

A better question would be why humans require a afterlife, or supernatural comfort. Rather then attacking the deity, treating the need should be the way to fight religion. No one is going to give a rat fart if you show a lack of evidence. 

Since that's probably never going to happen, we'll always have religion.

These are all good points. Our need of something more is the great mystery, eh? I would argue that it is humans simply being afraid, and needing a security blanket to make them feel better. How do we fix this? I wish I knew.

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

I heard that it has become a superpower now.  Due to so few having it.

Shhh! Professor Xavier says mum's the word.

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Habitat said:

They are to the witness.

Hab., It is common during acute grief to dream of a loved one, often dreams they are okay, it is common to look for them in crowds, to sense their presence, to feel as if they are protecting and looking out for you, it is very common to have visual hallucinations, conversations, sightings of the lost loved one. Some people have a difficult time transitioning from acute grief to integrated grief. One can be in acute grief for years, evident by the aspect of the loss one is focused on.

The  issue is the person has not gotten over the loss. It is a projection of the grieving person, they can’t let go. When you have experiences that can only be heard or seen by you as hard as it is the most feasible explanation is it is the process of grief.

My mom lost her sanity over my sisters murder had to be committed, she would save butterfly’s with broken wings try to nurse them back to health, she thought they were my sister in butterfly form. 

 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Hammerclaw
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Hab., It is common during acute grief to dream of a loved one, often dreams they are okay, it is common to look for them in crowds, to sense their presence, to feel as if they are protecting and looking out for you, it is very common to have visual hallucinations, conversations, sightings of the lost loved one. Some people have a difficult time transitioning from acute grief to integrated grief. One can be in acute grief for years, evident by the aspect of the loss one is focused on.

The  issue is the person has not gotten over the loss. It is a projection of the grieving person, they can’t let go. When you have experiences that can only be heard or seen by you as hard as it is the most feasible explanation is it is the process of grief.

My mom lost her sanity over my sisters murder had to be committed, she would save butterfly’s with broken wings try to nurse them back to health, she thought they were my sister in butterfly form. 

 

 

My sister was obsessed with finding pennies, convinced--at least for a while--that Jaime, her late husband, left them as a sign he was watching over her. That stopped when she ceased haunting his tomb and came to terms with her grief. Sometimes still, when I see a tall lanky blonde with long hair from behind, for an instant I see Terri, but only it's stimuli for recollection, now. 

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

My sister was obsessed with finding pennies, convinced--at least for a while--that Jaime, her late husband, left them as a sign he was watching over her. That stopped when she ceased haunting his tomb and came to terms with her grief. Sometimes still, when I see a tall lanky blonde with long hair from behind, for an instant I see Terri, but only it's stimuli for recollection, now. 

Even with Helen, I felt as if I sensed her presence, to the point I had to move out of the house.

Grief is an interesting thing, even when you didn’t like the person. 

My son just lost a dear friend to suicide, he is having dreams his friend is okay, he senses him everywhere. 

He is also in grief therapy, it is a difficult process and in the body’s wisdom it has adapted ways to cope.

Edited by Sherapy
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Hammerclaw
4 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Even with Helen, I felt as if I sensed her presence, to the point I had to move out of the house.

Grief is an interesting thing, even when you didn’t like the person. 

My son just lost a dear friend to suicide, he is having dreams his friend is okay, he senses him everywhere. 

He is also in grief therapy, it is a difficult process and in the body’s wisdom it has adapted ways to cope.

It's tough when, still so young and so deeply immersed and cocooned in the illusion of Maya, to be abruptly and so painfully confronted with the stark reality of our and those who are dear to us, mortality. It  can shatter fragile egos and scare a person for life. Random mass shootings, especially school shootings, are the worst.

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psyche101
11 hours ago, DieChecker said:

By doing the same as when you watch an Avengers movie. Suspention of disbelief. Humans can believe in anything. Doubtless there are real actual followers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster out there. 

Very much like that. Its a lot like that. Like people believing Iron Man or Thor will come to the rescue. 

That seems a bit ridiculous for adults to do. Play pretend. That I can't wrap my head around. Team 'woo' lead by Hab even get angry when others won't play with them. 

I find that an extreme level of belief that I am uncomfortable with. It strikes me as very unnatural. 

11 hours ago, DieChecker said:

The story of the Prodigal Son is an example. Humans will always turn to what they know comforts rather then seek out new comforts.

Its the continuous propping up of a failed belief that's the strange thing. Doesn't happen in any other field. The god idea is a very old one and fails in many ways. Yet so many just pull that belief ever tighter about them even as it crumbles away. 

11 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Depends on what you mean by many. 

I think anyone that has dealt with death and realises it's an end? Even losing a pet slams home the grief that comes with death. It's whether one accepts that grim conclusion, or refuses to is where the afterlife idea seperates realists from those who prefer not to face the harsh realities that come with life. 

11 hours ago, DieChecker said:

There you go! Figure out some secular way how to keep people from fearing death, and religion will disappear.

I think that has to be an individual decision. Fearing death is as natural as death itself. I can't imagine selling death as anything but grim. It's more acceptance than removing fear. 

11 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Society supports the idea. Social constructs... Herd mentality... Fear of death... Hope for reunion...

Herd mentality is the nail on the head there I reckon. 

All those thing sound great. But so does sleeping in regularly and living on a beach. We recognise reality there and accept it. 

11 hours ago, DieChecker said:

You are thinking logically. And as Spock noted... Humans are illogical.

We do evolve though. I'd like to hope mentally as well as physically. 

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Hammerclaw
27 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Even with Helen, I felt as if I sensed her presence, to the point I had to move out of the house.

Grief is an interesting thing, even when you didn’t like the person. 

My son just lost a dear friend to suicide, he is having dreams his friend is okay, he senses him everywhere. 

He is also in grief therapy, it is a difficult process and in the body’s wisdom it has adapted ways to cope.

The nice lady after her, the one who fell, did you sense anything of her, post mortem?

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Hammerclaw
2 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Very much like that. Its a lot like that. Like people believing Iron Man or Thor will come to the rescue. 

That seems a bit ridiculous for adults to do. Play pretend. That I can't wrap my head around. Team 'woo' lead by Hab even get angry when others won't play with them. 

I find that an extreme level of belief that I am uncomfortable with. It strikes me as very unnatural. 

Its the continuous propping up of a failed belief that's the strange thing. Doesn't happen in any other field. The god idea is a very old one and fails in many ways. Yet so many just pull that belief ever tighter about them even as it crumbles away. 

I think anyone that has dealt with death and realises it's an end? Even losing a pet slams home the grief that comes with death. It's whether one accepts that grim conclusion, or refuses to is where the afterlife idea seperates realists from those who prefer not to face the harsh realities that come with life. 

I think that has to be an individual decision. Fearing death is as natural as death itself. I can't imagine selling death as anything but grim. It's more acceptance than removing fear. 

Herd mentality is the nail on the head there I reckon. 

All those thing sound great. But so does sleeping in regularly and living on a beach. We recognise reality there and accept it. 

We do evolve though. I'd like to hope mentally as well as physically. 

We've become more educated, more knowledgeable. Still, as far as evolution goes, were no different than the Cro Magnons, squatting in front of caves in icy France chipping flint, thirty thousand years ago. Any of them, given a modern education, could, potentially, fly a space shuttle. Where evolution has occurred is in thought and the corpus of human knowledge. Civilization gave us the spare time to do that.

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Habitat
46 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Hab., It is common during acute grief to dream of a loved one, often dreams they are okay, it is common to look for them in crowds, to sense their presence, to feel as if they are protecting and looking out for you, it is very common to have visual hallucinations, conversations, sightings of the lost loved one. Some people have a difficult time transitioning from acute grief to integrated grief. One can be in acute grief for years, evident by the aspect of the loss one is focused on.

The  issue is the person has not gotten over the loss. It is a projection of the grieving person, they can’t let go. When you have experiences that can only be heard or seen by you as hard as it is the most feasible explanation is it is the process of grief.

My mom lost her sanity over my sisters murder had to be committed, she would save butterfly’s with broken wings try to nurse them back to health, she thought they were my sister in butterfly form. 

 

 

Simply put, there is not a ghost of a chance (get it, joke ?) you are right here, several others in the family also reported "happenings", and the parallel in some cases was quite stark. But the greater volume of it fell to me. Nothing to do with hallucinating, " grief madness" or any other "rational" explanation. That you have the compelling need to believe it is, is the only matter here that you ought ponder, really. That attitude is very common among posters here, which should be no surprise, were they comfortable to just leave it as an anecdote about which no judgement could accurately be made, they would never be heard from. Just as I would never have been heard from, if I did not know what I now know. There would be no incentive for me to ever appear here. But there are many appearing here out of largely unconscious, but strong internal motives.

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psyche101
11 hours ago, Habitat said:

What is real is your urgent need to believe this.

Its not a need to accept facts Hab, that is just what normal people do. Why you project your insecurities through superstition in a belligerent fashion is a far greater unexplained mystery. Or is it? I think Sheri most likely exposed the source of your need to defend superstition. You wish to accept the irrational to deal with loss. That's not uncommon at all. Neither is your vitriol and struggle to accept facts because like all beliefs, science erodes your own. That far better explains your claims and attitude than the supernatural does. This is apparent to all but yourself, and the 'extraordinary claimants' that support your claims of knowing a beyond exists. 

11 hours ago, Habitat said:

Too bad you can't be humble, and just admit you really don't know !

Like I said, there is plenty we do know, and it negates the ideas you and those even less informed than you promote. Your beliefs do not negate those facts though. You should swallow one of those humble pills you keep prescribing and admit you are way behind in physics and didn't realise that it negates your personal proposals. Claiming that embracing irrationality is the key is just crazy talk. You might as well be arguing that evolution does not happen or that God visits you for personal chats in your backyard. It's as sensible as claiming to travel the galaxy in a single night. 

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psyche101
4 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

We've become more educated, more knowledgeable. Still, as far as evolution goes, were no different than the Cro Magnons, squatting in front of caves in icy France chipping flint, thirty thousand years ago. Any of them, given a modern education, could, potentially, fly a space shuttle. Where evolution has occurred is in thought and the corpus of human knowledge. Civilization gave us the spare time to do that.

That's very true, but do you not think we could ever evolve mentally to be more accepting and less dependent? 

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Habitat
9 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

You've got your initial claim and you've got your concluding tangential impressions.  All that's missing is the important stuff in between that backs up your claim.  No science exists that can 'answer' the question of whether astrology works, and lots of other things people believe in, but it's not foolish though to say that astrology is bunk, it's a conclusion based on the evidence and lack thereof.  Some people apply that same reasoning to the afterlife, and there's nothing foolish about that either, since there's nothing to distinguish the claims of astrology and the afterlife, since there's no evidence to support either and counter-arguments exist against both.

The reasons to believe our consciousness lives on in some manner rely on anecdotes, which you seem to agree no one should assume are just true when they are from other people. Since we shouldn't just blanket accept another person's anecdotes (no matter the ad hominems that accompany them) some people think this logically says something about the entire category 'anecdote', namely that this category on its own is not that reliable.  For those who aren't convinced they already have 'the truth', that can and if we're being consistent should include doubting one's own anecdotes.  On the other hand, the reasons not to believe our consciousness lives on are indeed based on science; not anecdotes, not truths 'to me', not any other wishy-washy evidence that can't be provided.  Science can't rule out things that are not even defined; if you'd like to provide some additional detail on how the afterlife works, what qualities it has, something, then we can compare that to what science might say about it.

 

Sorry I can do nothing to quell your doubts, other than anecdotes.

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Habitat
4 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Like I said, there is plenty we do know, and it negates the ideas you and those even less informed than you promote. Your beliefs do not negate those facts though. You should swallow one of those humble pills you keep prescribing and admit you are way behind in physics and didn't realise that it negates your personal proposals. Claiming that embracing irrationality is the key is just crazy talk. You might as well be arguing that evolution does not happen or that God visits you for personal chats in your backyard. It's as sensible as claiming to travel the galaxy in a single night. 

At least your wrong-headedness is consistent, that I will grant. There is no science that does what you so badly want it to do, in your madness you really give science a bad name by claiming there is this a scientific  consensus that agrees with you, that is just lies. And if your case relies on conflating my stories with the rather different ones of another poster, you are becoming more desperate.

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psyche101
11 hours ago, Habitat said:

I can tell you, that I certainly was never a believer or an unbeliever, I just did not know, and how would you ? You don't. Till you see something decisive. Or a hundred.

I remember crossing paths with you some time ago in the UFO sections of this board. 

As far as I have seen, you do default the the whacky. Your approach to this subject is the same. 

Your connection to the other side is as believable as if you had claimed to travel the galaxy in one night. 

Napoleon-as-Elvis--122266.jpg

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Hammerclaw
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

That's very true, but do you not think we could ever evolve mentally to be more accepting and less dependent? 

The cultural complex in which we reside may evolve to instill those values--in fact, it already has. For the intellectual elite, those who are accepting, it's a done deal. The bulk of humanity is another matter entirely. We are that which we are at this stage of physical evolution and evolution doesn't work on a human timescale. The vast bulk of humanity is religious and spiritual--there must be some sort of survival benefit to it as this planet is crawling with humans. Such traits don't evolve out of the genome, easily.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Habitat
1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

I remember crossing paths with you some time ago in the UFO sections of this board. 

As far as I have seen, you do default the the whacky. Your approach to this subject is the same. 

Your connection to the other side is as believable as if you had claimed to travel the galaxy in one night. 

Napoleon-as-Elvis--122266.jpg

You poor devil, forced to keep bringing Mr Walker into your attacks on me. Yes, the "UFO" story which is now over 40 years old, I have never claimed to anyone was an alien spacecraft, even back then. The other witness, who I lost contact with years ago, and may be dead, was adamant it was. And was wont to tell everyone who would listen, just that. I can't say what it was, but I would say 90% of people would have defaulted to that explanation. This, though, is what I have always maintained, there was no mundane explanation for what was seen that day.

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XenoFish
21 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

The vast bulk of humanity is religious and spiritual--there must be some sort of survival benefit to it as this planet is crawling with humans. 

Probably not the answer anyone will expect of me, but here it goes.

The answer is connectivity, hope, meaning, and purpose. It's emotional. 

People tend to be pack animals. So a common belief and/or purpose will connect them. 

Although certain ideologies can be harmful, I'm sure there are some out there that create harmony. 

However. Reason, common sense, and logic should not be cast aside for faith alone. Balance these things.

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

The nice lady after her, the one who fell, did you sense anything of her, post mortem?

Oh my, yes. I still feel her presence, I have this senser she looks out for me. Lol,Many interesting things happened in my brain on that one. 

I still miss her, what an awesome lady.

Edited by Sherapy
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XenoFish
1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

Oh my, yes. I still feel her presence, I have this senser she looks out for me. Lol,Many interesting things happened in my brain on that one. 

I still miss her, what an awesome lady.

Our loved ones never leave us. So long as we remember them. 

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

It's tough when, still so young and so deeply immersed and cocooned in the illusion of Maya, to be abruptly and so painfully confronted with the stark reality of our and those who are dear to us, mortality. It  can shatter fragile egos and scare a person for life. Random mass shootings, especially school shootings, are the worst.

Thank you for your kind words, my poor boy, this is not what you want for them,, but life is brutal. 

 

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Sherapy
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Our loved ones never leave us. So long as we remember them. 

Oh yeah, this lady has residence in my memories, she was an amazing friend. 

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Hammerclaw
3 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Oh my, yes. I still feel her presence, I have this senser she looks out for me. Lol,Many interesting things happened in my brain on that one. 

I still miss her, what an awesome lady.

Your waters are deep. 

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psyche101
11 hours ago, Habitat said:

I have a duty to point out the fact that the pressing need to quash "woo" comes from the fear that it might not actually be all BS, though we know some certainly is. What's to be frightened of ? That is the real question.

Its not fear, superstition is an outright attack on logic. There's no fear that it might not be BS. That's what any sensible person would conclude. The only way fear can enter this picture is on your behalf in the face of minds far greater than yours who refute your predetermined conclusions. 

What's your need to promote woo? Especially to skeptics? If not self validation, what else could it be? 

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XenoFish
Just now, Sherapy said:

Oh yeah, this lady has residence in my memories, she was an amazing friend. 

That's what I call a thought-form. It's a mental construct of something or someone. A shadow of them so to speak. There are times when strong emotions might "manifest" them in certain ways. A phantom smell, a whisper, ghost, dreams. We believe these things are real spirits, but it is just a memory being relived.

 

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