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crookedspiral

Atheism is incompatible with science

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Hammerclaw
32 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Hammer

Looks to me like there is some room for potential and hell if there is an Atlantis on Mars then why not a Chicago too.:lol:

 

There are 2 places named Chicago in America.

There are 2 places named Chicago in Mexico.

There is one place named Chicago in Philippines.

There is one place named Chicago in Nicaragua.

There is one place named Chicago in Mozambique.

There is one place named Chicago in Guatemala.

There is one place named Chicago in Belize.

jmccr8

My family has history with Chicago, Southside. Where I'm from is called " Little Chicago" in the crime magazines because so many of it's more colorful denizens retired here to spend the ill-gotten booty. "You ain't from Chicago" is a slur, more telling if it happens to also be true.

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Hammerclaw
On 5/24/2019 at 8:21 AM, Liquid Gardens said:

I'd agree that Hab and psyche are entrenched at the opposite ends of the spectrum, but I think that's where the similarities end.  If you disagree with Psyche or just want to know where he's coming from, he can provide it.  I can understand how he got to his position, regardless of whether I personally come to the same conclusion from the same evidence, because he explains it in detail. 

I'd agree with you guys though that Hab I think has more potential than some of our 'other team' posters.  I just wish he'd engage with the argumentation instead of dropping one-two sentence restatements of his position that seem more defensive than anything.  There's no reason to keep the shields up, he can drop them, we're not firing photon torpedoes and full phasers.  We just naturally take sensor readings of everything here, and maybe at worst just wanna beam over a couple tribbles for him to think about.

Your first sentence nailed it, although it only once was true for Psyche, as he's moderated his outlook, without necessarily yielding reason to folly. He and I use to slug it out in the trenches and he's earned my respect and friendship and I don't make friends, easily. Friends are people you can say what you think to, without them going ballistic over it; well, at least, to me. Habbie's a work in progress, a believer in denial of his own belief. I suppose, in some quarters, it's a slur to be called one.

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ChrLzs
On 24/05/2019 at 10:38 PM, XenoFish said:

I'm really coming to believe, perhaps understand that it's all about control. At least a sense of it. Religion, magick, the law of attraction. All revolving around "controlling circumstance". 

On 24/05/2019 at 11:25 PM, DieChecker said:

Anyone who figures it out will likely be raised up as a new religious figure. :devil:

Scientology, anyone?

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XenoFish
Just now, ChrLzs said:

Scientology, anyone?

Nah, you have fun with that.

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ChrLzs
8 minutes ago, ChrLzs said:

Scientology, anyone?

In case there was ever any doubt, I gave that as an example that makes as much sense as any religion (or far far less)...  Some fiction writer makes up a ludicrous story about alienz, and then a whole pile of scammers, sadists, thieves and general scum use it to fleece the gullible, or remove money from actors and the filthy rich by stroking their egos.  I can no longer watch tom cruise or john revolter. without puking

But, ask me what I really think....

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Golden Duck
1 hour ago, ChrLzs said:

In case there was ever any doubt, I gave that as an example that makes as much sense as any religion (or far far less)...  Some fiction writer makes up a ludicrous story about alienz, and then a whole pile of scammers, sadists, thieves and general scum use it to fleece the gullible, or remove money from actors and the filthy rich by stroking their egos.  I can no longer watch tom cruise or john revolter. without puking

But, ask me what I really think....

Jack Retcher?

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Fungiperson84

Maybe he was turned into a political puppet maybe Nazi's used people to get him angry and start a slaughter maybe we have some of this wrong and if there was any witnesses still alive they probably were a child back so how could we know if they were telling the truth we physical proof of what he did some people can't be trusted with words alone.

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Fungiperson84

Really think about it don't rely on people at first assume that they are lying until the truth comes because believe me the truth always comes out sooner or later whether we like or not

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Fungiperson84
Posted (edited)

Sometimes you don't believe it you just go along with it thinking he/she just be joking you try avoiding accepting reality

 

Edited by Fungiperson84
Forgot to add link to vine

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Geek-hut
On 4/13/2019 at 4:58 AM, XenoFish said:

Pretty much. Either its the rage, are they only seek to further reinforce their own beliefs.

That whole, "I need something to hate."

It's also partly investment psychology. By a certain age we have invested a lot of time energy and passion into our beliefs.

Many people hate losing more than they enjoy winning and subsequently they’ll do anything to put off a loss.

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danydandan

@Fungiperson84 what hell are you waffling about?

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danydandan
1 hour ago, Geek-hut said:

It's also partly investment psychology. By a certain age we have invested a lot of time energy and passion into our beliefs.

Many people hate losing more than they enjoy winning and subsequently they’ll do anything to put off a loss.

So it all boils down selfishness?

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XenoFish
40 minutes ago, danydandan said:

what hell are you waffling about?

Puppet account maybe?

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XenoFish
1 hour ago, Geek-hut said:

It's also partly investment psychology. By a certain age we have invested a lot of time energy and passion into our beliefs.

Many people hate losing more than they enjoy winning and subsequently they’ll do anything to put off a loss.

This would be more akin to belief perseverance. Where no matter the reality of the thing, the belief is much stronger. It creates emotional turmoil. People will either fight against any information that contradicts their beliefs or accept this new information.

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Piney
12 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

This would be more akin to belief perseverance. Where no matter the reality of the thing, the belief is much stronger. It creates emotional turmoil. People will either fight against any information that contradicts their beliefs or accept this new information.

Now who does that remind me of? :whistle:

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Piney
On 5/26/2019 at 5:53 PM, ChrLzs said:

I can no longer watch tom cruise or john revolter. without puking

Haven't been able to stomach those two for years. Especially Travolta who murdered his own son and got away with it. 

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XenoFish
4 minutes ago, Piney said:

Now who does that remind me of? :whistle:

I'd like the buy a vowel Alex...

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Piney
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

I'd like the buy a vowel Alex...

I'll sell you three.

E, O and another E. 

 

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Alchopwn
Posted (edited)
On 5/21/2019 at 11:15 AM, Habitat said:

Quite true, if a text is claimed to be divinely inspired, but can be shown to contain falsehoods, then we certainly can't be accepting of it being the "word of God". But it has no bearing whatever on whether the divine is real.

If by "the divine" we mean anything relating to the reality of the god of the Christians, then yes, the proof offered is clear evidence that such a god does not and cannot exist.  A benign deity simply cannot allow a falsehood to be promulgated in their name, as it may well mislead their would-be followers.  As an example, we might point to the pejorative use of the term casuistry as a means to lead followers astray with "moral" arguments drawn from scripture.  Now the great thing about being all-knowing, perfect, and all-powerful is that one may simply and subtly alter the timeline so that any document created in one's holy name contains no errors, and even if an error had occurred in another timeline, nobody could be any the wiser about it, and the document would be flawless.  Thus any flaw in a document that purports to be a statement of holy truth but contains factual or moral errors is a clear proof that something is badly wrong with this deity.  Either they didn't notice the problem and so are not all-knowing, or they didn't see the problem as a problem, which means they aren't perfect, or they lacked the power to change it, which means they aren't all-powerful, or they don't care, which means they aren't omnibenevolent.  As these are the known traits of God, and without them one might question why god deserves worship, then if there is a fault in the scripture then there is a fault in the deity, and that cannot be unless the deity doesn't actually exist Q.E.D.

In any case, if we ignore the Bible as evidence, then how can anyone separate "the divine" from the merely supernatural?

Edited by Alchopwn
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Habitat
3 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

or they didn't see the problem as a problem, which means they aren't perfect

But your judgement that there is a "problem", is "perfect" ?

3 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

or they don't care, which means they aren't omnibenevolent. 

The old story, if everything is made "benevolent", then it no longer exists, benevolence only exists by contrast to malevolence

3 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

As these are the known traits of God, and without them one might question why god deserves worship

Known by whom, and by what means ? Who says "God" wants worship ?

3 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

then if there is a fault in the scripture then there is a fault in the deity

There may be a faulty representation of the deity by that scripture, more likely.

3 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

In any case, if we ignore the Bible as evidence, then how can anyone separate "the divine" from the merely supernatural?

How can anyone separate the divine from the supernatural, anyway ? I believe you are applying rational thinking where it is not applicable.

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Alchopwn
8 hours ago, Habitat said:

But your judgement that there is a "problem", is "perfect" ?

There are literally hundreds of errors in the Bible.  Some relate to a divine intelligence that doesn't know basic facts about nature.  Some relate to internal contradictions in the text and between gospels.  Some relate to continuity errors. etc.  It isn't just my own work, but the work of a great many people who have pored over the text and become annoyed.  Of course the same is true of the Quran, and the same criticisms can be levelled more fiercely against the Quran as it makes the claim that it was actually penned by Allah.  In any case, both documents are clearly penned by human beings whose knowledge is limited by the time in which they lived, and which we now know to be factually incorrect and misinformed on an alarming number of points.

8 hours ago, Habitat said:

The old story, if everything is made "benevolent", then it no longer exists, benevolence only exists by contrast to malevolence

Except that this is not the argument that I am putting and you are misrepresenting the position that I stated.  Clearly telling lies is malevolent.  For a perfect and omnibenevolent deity, allowing their doctrine to be misrepresented when they have both the knowledge and power to prevent it would constitute deliberate negligence, and that is malevolent.  This was not an argument about moral absolutes, but of what would be simple legal culpability if performed by a human, but apparently you didn't understand that Habitat.

8 hours ago, Habitat said:

Known by whom, and by what means ? Who says "God" wants worship ?

Well, I am not the one making the claims if that is what you mean.  On the other hand, both the Bible and the Quran both clearly state that their deity not only wants but DEMANDS worship.  Now as the only evidence we have for the divine as opposed to the merely supernatural is via scripture, and anything that isn't ratified by scriptural authority is extremely suspicious theologically, then we must assume that the scriptures are telling the truth and you are being a heretic by questioning them.

8 hours ago, Habitat said:

There may be a faulty representation of the deity by that scripture, more likely.

As this deity allegedly has both the knowledge and power in absolute abundance to correct that scripture without anyone knowing, this claim of yours is merely more proof that the deity doesn't actually exist.

8 hours ago, Habitat said:

How can anyone separate the divine from the supernatural, anyway ? I believe you are applying rational thinking where it is not applicable.

Well, the Bible makes clear distinction between the divine and the infernal, and to other gods, and to unclean spirits, thus implying the existence of clean spirits, and to the power of necromancy,and to the fae (onocentaurs and fauns in the Septaugint translation), and to ghosts, so clearly there is a distinction being made between the divine and other forms of the supernatural.  Your scholarship on this matter should be better.

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Habitat
14 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

Your scholarship on this matter should be better.

My scholarship leads me to believe that holy books are often dual texts, and have to be looked at, in that light.  Don't take too much literally.

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Alchopwn
2 hours ago, Habitat said:

My scholarship leads me to believe that holy books are often dual texts, and have to be looked at, in that light.  Don't take too much literally.

As someone who has spent a decade or more translating such texts, and fragments thereof, they are far more than merely dual.  There are multiple authors, theological agendas, languages, periods, linguistic shifts etc. etc. etc.  Each dimension can add a fresh spin.  I have watched Christian Fundamentalist students who were straight A students have breakdowns and become atheists after studying the historical critical approach to the Bible.  Normally it is the honest ones that can't cope.

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Habitat
1 minute ago, Alchopwn said:

As someone who has spent a decade or more translating such texts, and fragments thereof, they are far more than merely dual.  There are multiple authors, theological agendas, languages, periods, linguistic shifts etc. etc. etc.  Each dimension can add a fresh spin.  I have watched Christian Fundamentalist students who were straight A students have breakdowns and become atheists after studying the historical critical approach to the Bible.  Normally it is the honest ones that can't cope.

You mean professionally ? Or as a "hobby", or...…?

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danydandan
1 minute ago, Habitat said:

You mean professionally ? Or as a "hobby", or...…?

Does it matter?

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