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On3Truly

Atheism is incompatible with science

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Hammerclaw

Of course God exists; God's exist; God's by the bushel, God's by the pound. Mankind has always had a plethora of God's. What is a God? What merits it's worship? How does one determine what is or what isn't a God? Do God's have existence other than as conceptual objects of worship? Enquiring minds want to know.

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pallidin

Quantum physics provides for extraordinary events.... narcissism demands that to be untrue.

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pallidin

Perhaps I should embrace narcissism; after all, it fits within my thug mentality.

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pallidin

I'm going on Holiday, want to join?...

 

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Mr Walker
7 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

Exactly. Those that claim God exists simply assert it. Even going as far as saying it's an unfalsifiable position. I've yet to get the explanation on how one would go about proving anything proposed isn't real.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

"Russell specifically applied his analogy in the context of religion.[1] He wrote that if he were to assert, without offering proof, that a teapot, too small to be seen by telescopes, orbits the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars, he could not expect anyone to believe him solely because his assertion could not be proven wrong."

Yes @Mr Walker, you can claim anything you'd like. You admit proving it is difficult though.

It's in the same vein as Bigfoot, faeries and leprechauns. Believers get to claim they are real, but others can't claim it's not because believers know *insert favorite phenomena* is real?

I'm positive you're aware of the concept of burden of proof, yet you seem fine with simply asserting things and telling people they're WRONG for not accepting.

Do you expect people to believe anecdotal stories about these things?

I'm sure you consider it logical for atheists to hold the position they do due to lack of evidence.

You've claimed you could prove to someone that your "god" is real if they come visit you. Wouldn't it behoove you to search out a way to do this? Can your god help the human race as a whole? Cure diseases? Help out with cold fusion? Stop injustices? 

If not, what's the point in calling it a god and not just an alien buddy of yours?

A strawman, that most recently @Habitat , tried to adopt against me. Along with trying to define atheism as something other than the position of not believing in a god.

It seems it's imperative for him that an atheist must insert doubt into their viewpoint.

Something along the lines of,

"I don't believe in god, but it's absolutely possible it exists."

A caveat that really isn't necessary in my opinion.

One would have to add it to pretty much any similar position.

Ex. "I don't believe in Bigfoot, BUT it's definitely possibly it exists."

Kind of lame in my opinion. 

 

My point (which i emphasised) was the use of personal  proofs and evidences which can establish the existence of a god (or other being)  to any one person.

These do not exist when trying to establish personal  knowledge that gods etc do NOT exist. 

Throughout your life you will live with personal experiences that are real and evidenced by physical proofs.

  However, for almost all of them you will have no evidences that could be transferred to another who was not with you at the time 

Suppose you were alone for a year

you would know (from personal  evidences) what you had done during that year but you would have very few evidences that you could transfer, to prove to another what you had been doing. 

I don't expect people to believe. I don't expect people to disbelieve The most logical position is agnosticism, ie suspending belief and disbelief until you have your own knowledge, proofs or evidences 

I don't tell my stories  to get people to believe. i tell them because the y are true (and i believe interesting) things which have happened to me.

it doesn't behove me to do anything more than I am. People must chose belief or disbelief.   God doesn't work using material evidences his/its power  is mostly based on human faith and belief  (although god can intervene physically ) 

Vaccination is prove safe and essential for children, yet many people  believe it is harmful  Ie people act on what they believe more than on knowledge 

I call it god because that is the name English speaking peoples use for this and similar entities (note i do NOT usually capitalise the word )

I guess that, technically, a person who doubts is more agnostic than atheist.

That goes for both believers and unbelievers 

However, while some people think in absolutes, i tend to be more nuanced  

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Mr Walker
15 hours ago, danydandan said:

Of course you don't see the hypocritical approach, didn't really expect you to either.

Scroll back to his response when I asked does s/he hold those of Faith, with certainty of their beliefs in the same vein as these apparent enemies....I mean Atheists.

Long story short he says he does, but I've never seen him/her engaged in a discussion or troll any Theists for their certainty. Have you? 

That's hypocritical, berating one for their certainty and not the other. Seems like an innate bias he/she has.

Ive explained how i see that.  Bias yes, but not hypocritical.

He says what he means, even if it is biased. 

Hypocritical is saying one thing while doing or believing another 

As stated i think he believers believers are right and non believes are wrong

Thus certainty in one, while it occurs, is legitimate; while certainty in the other group is illegitimate, because they are certain about something which is wrong. (in Hab's experience)    

Eg one can criticise the certainty of a flat earther, but not the certainty of an oblate spheroid earther, without being hypocritical . :)   

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Mr Walker
8 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

You refer to your alien as god consistently and when questioned turn it around to all humans other than you would see it as a god even when told that an alien is just that. And no Will god is not an alien.

jmccr8

god with no capital yes. That is because, in my opinion and experience, this entity is the basis for human contact with gods over the last 50-100000 years 

If i call it an alien then people don't get that i am speaking of the same 'being" which they refer to as god; and also alien has a negative connotation for many (despite god, by definition, being a non human alien)  

I also post consistently  that neither I nor the entity see it as "God"  That is a label  and an attribute given to it by humans who meet it, and don't understand its nature  

Up until 200 years ago NO ONE would have considered alien beings living on other planets and visiting us  except in terms of gods and angels  Now tha t we are approaching that abilty we can perceive these beings in a different way.

My point was that, because it is real and physical, and not in my mind, you would also see it if it appeared next to both of us. 

Whether you saw it as god or alien would be up to you.  

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Horta
5 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

A strawman, that most recently @Habitat , tried to adopt against me. Along with trying to define atheism as something other than the position of not believing in a god.

It seems it's imperative for him that an atheist must insert doubt into their viewpoint.

Something along the lines of,

"I don't believe in god, but it's absolutely possible it exists."

A caveat that really isn't necessary in my opinion.

One would have to add it to pretty much any similar position.

Ex. "I don't believe in Bigfoot, BUT it's definitely possibly it exists."

Kind of lame in my opinion. 

 

I do actually claim that some gods (notably the one in the bible) don't exist. That's not only atheism IMO, but antitheism, as it is an argument for the non existence of a specific god. I think this not unreasonable because we have a clear definition along with litany of claims, in the bible itself.

100% of testable concluded claims about this god have proven false so far, it can't be supported with evidence based reasoned argument, it fails logically and is riddled with contradiction, as a belief it has far better and simpler explanation as a type of folklore (that doesn't require it to exist), and by any reasonable standard that we can use to discern reality, its non existence could be considered a fact IMO. Similar to certain other gods (Thor), fairies and bigfoot (though lesser surety about the last two).

None of this requires the certainty that believers usually have about god though. If there were evidence and reasoned argument sufficient to give reasonable probability of being wrong, these views would change accordingly. This seems basic to an atheist position, that we could be wrong about anything.

The idea that atheism requires a firm belief in the non existence of god probably shows their own inherent bias, as being so smitten with belief, they can't comprehend that debate over the actual existence of any particular god is not a reasonable starting point to begin with. It is never about whether some (usually non specific) god could exist, it is only about considering the claims that such a thing does indeed exist and what they are based on. When the claims fail the sniff test, the default position is that god doesn't exist. Like fairies and bigfoot. This could be wrong, but there are no reasons as yet to think so.

So far we have offerings of one who has had personally convincing paranormal experience, and therefore extends belief to include god via a type of logical non sequitur (a god that is not only without definition, but incapable of having one apparently lol). Another who might as well be a machine/bot programmed to give "god" as the only response. A bit of creative writing/possible attention seeking fabulism, lots of defining atheism in terms that help ease the dissonance, and one rather thoughtful and at times insightful believer, who at least seems to understand why people wouldn't believe.

The only thing missing in all of this, is any genuine reason to consider the probability of gods existence having risen above a "Planck chance".

 

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Mr Walker
9 hours ago, Sherapy said:

You have imagined a position that the so called team holds. 

Not a single poster has taken the position that god doesn’t exist.

You are projecting, it is you who positis that god exists based on personal ancedotal evidence.

In reality, one can’t prove or disprove god. 

You can put forth arguments that are supported by facts about why you lean towards one conclusion more than other.

Which to date you have never done.

Instead, You prostelize a holier than thou lifestyle you make claims that living the way you do is superior, the gold standard, buying your underwear from goodwill, having very little money and major health issues, living in very small town that you have never left, reading about life through books for entertainment. Hey, if this is your happiness good for you, but don’t be offended that the rest of us would not under any circumstances strive for such an existence. 

For example: You are berating J., for loving his life, living his, life, enjoying his life, having great health, liking his wine, enjoying lots of women, having adventure, and a granddaughter who he adores that brings him a lot of joy, work he thrives in. Sheesh.

 

 

 

 

 

Factually incorrect  Read Psyche's posts 

He not only "factually claims"  that god does not exist but tha t science has proven that god does not exist 

Read other posts which support  this view 

in reality one CAN prove or disprove god if we stick to real physical beings. If the y are not real they don't exist, which is the argument of an atheist 

lol Ive posted the facts supporting my pov thousands of times You must be choosing to ignore or forget them. 

I put forward one way of living which as proven medical benefits 

You choose not to believe the sceince  because it contradicts your "faith"

There are many paths to happines and fulfilment 

Mine is one 

There are many paths to unhappiness depression despair and lack of purpose.

Mine is NOT one of those

Of course i promote a path i know works But i have NEVER claimed it is the only path. That is YOUR claim  ie that material atheism is somehow better for a human being.  

berating ? 

Thats your percetion of my words 

who is J ?

if you mean jmcr8

then while i would definitely not choose to live as he does i respect his views and even like him as an online personality he makes an effort ad is genuinely curious  

However i would debate some of his choices  and some of his ideas That is natural. If i agreed with them i would live as he lives/

We will never change the world unless we take personal action to do so. 

That is why i live my life as i do.  I want to leave the world better than when i  came into it   

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jmccr8
35 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I guess that, technically, a person who doubts is more agnostic than atheist.

Hi Walker

What exactly would an agnostic have doubts about when one neither knows or cares if there is a god?

Don't they just say

Frank Sinatra My Way - Live 1971 on Vimeo

:lol::whistle:

jmccr8

Edited by jmccr8
not sure but did it anyway

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onlookerofmayhem

@Horta

I agree that there are valid arguments against certain gods existing.

As you said, the key is that they be clearly defined to construct an argument against.

When the definition is too broad or claimed to be "unknowable," it's harder or possibly impossible to form and argument against. 

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jmccr8
37 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Suppose you were alone for a year

Hi Walker

With or without people? Lots of people feel alone surrounded by people and make themselves un-noticeable without contact.

jmccr8

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jmccr8
28 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

god with no capital yes. That is because, in my opinion and experience, this entity is the basis for human contact with gods over the last 50-100000 years

Hi Walker

What is a god with a capital g for you and what 100,000 or 50,000 yr old experiences have you had and why haven't you shared them in the past?

32 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

If i call it an alien then people don't get that i am speaking of the same 'being" which they refer to as god; and also alien has a negative connotation for many (despite god, by definition, being a non human alien)

So misdirection and confusion are viable ways of expressing a truth? :huh: My god isn't an alien by ant definition but if it thinks and realizes potential then we are driven by the same evolutionary processes so for me just more others like me that are not identical to me or each other.:D

 

37 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Up until 200 years ago NO ONE would have considered alien beings living on other planets and visiting us  except in terms of gods and angels  Now tha t we are approaching that abilty we can perceive these beings in a different way.

I can conceive aliens however that is not sufficient proof for me to believe that they have been here so no I am not unless properly vetted paper is given to show that any of these entities have had real physical in reality as described by you in the last few posts.

45 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

My point was that, because it is real and physical, and not in my mind, you would also see it if it appeared next to both of us. 

Whether you saw it as god or alien would be up to you.

It is not known if it is real or not and at this time, well actually for quite a while members have questioned and butted you and it is, for the most part, a fantastical story designed to affirm your construct as that is your position that all men create constructs.

jmccr8

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jmccr8
37 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

who is J ?

if you mean jmcr8

then while i would definitely not choose to live as he does i respect his views and even like him as an online personality he makes an effort ad is genuinely curious  

However i would debate some of his choices  and some of his ideas That is natural. If i agreed with them i would live as he lives/

We will never change the world unless we take personal action to do so. 

Hi Walker

Yes, that is me, thanks.:D

The only way that you could effectively debate my choices would be if you had been there known me and what/who else was involved would I even consider letting you engage me. We can change our lives and in a way those that we touch(some need to be touched with a fist or boot), I couldn't have helped some of the people that I did if I didn't scare the hell out of those that were their barrier in life, and no I don't have to hit someone to scare them my eyes glow.:lol:

jmccr8

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Factually incorrect  Read Psyche's posts 

He not only "factually claims"  that god does not exist but tha t science has proven that god does not exist 

Read other posts which support  this view 

in reality one CAN prove or disprove god if we stick to real physical beings. If the y are not real they don't exist, which is the argument of an atheist 

lol Ive posted the facts supporting my pov thousands of times You must be choosing to ignore or forget them. 

I put forward one way of living which as proven medical benefits 

You choose not to believe the sceince  because it contradicts your "faith"

There are many paths to happines and fulfilment 

Mine is one 

There are many paths to unhappiness depression despair and lack of purpose.

Mine is NOT one of those

Of course i promote a path i know works But i have NEVER claimed it is the only path. That is YOUR claim  ie that material atheism is somehow better for a human being.  

berating ? 

Thats your percetion of my words 

who is J ?

if you mean jmcr8

then while i would definitely not choose to live as he does i respect his views and even like him as an online personality he makes an effort ad is genuinely curious  

However i would debate some of his choices  and some of his ideas That is natural. If i agreed with them i would live as he lives/

We will never change the world unless we take personal action to do so. 

That is why i live my life as i do.  I want to leave the world better than when i  came into it   

Please post the post of Pysche’s that states this. 

The path you promote works best for your survival in a very religious based environment., it certainly has no value for me. 

Change the world, making it a better place well J., has a daughter and a grandchild this is a wonderful and noble way to do this. 

For one who prides himself on understanding and embracing others perspectives since he was 3  how did you miss the obvious. 

I get for you, you have to find ways to better the world and I think prostelizing the biblical way of life is your way. 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Guyver
7 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Of course God exists; God's exist; God's by the bushel, God's by the pound. Mankind has always had a plethora of God's. What is a God? What merits it's worship? How does one determine what is or what isn't a God? Do God's have existence other than as conceptual objects of worship? Enquiring minds want to know.

Thinking about it, I don’t really see why God would need to be worshiped as people believe.  I just think a true being of such great potential would not need or want to be worshiped.  I’m sure that if God exists, there was a good reason of some sort for us to be here....but worship wouldn’t be it.....IMO.

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Sherapy
8 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Thinking about it, I don’t really see why God would need to be worshiped as people believe.  I just think a true being of such great potential would not need or want to be worshiped.  I’m sure that if God exists, there was a good reason of some sort for us to be here....but worship wouldn’t be it.....IMO.

I have a question, when you were a believer did you beleive in god or did you think god existed?

I ask you because I have immense respect for the way you present your view. 

Edited by Sherapy

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Habitat
1 hour ago, Horta said:

The only thing missing in all of this, is any genuine reason to consider the probability of gods existence having risen above a "Planck chance".

The mere fact you speak of assigning probability to an undefined, even undefinable idea, tells me a lot about you, but nothing about that idea ! I think your calculations fall at the first obstacle, by assuming you have both ownership of the detection equipment, and the expertise of being able to apply it. I'm tipping you have the former, but not the latter. And you are not consciously aware of either.

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Guyver
5 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I have a question, when you were a believer did you beleive in god or did you think god existed?

I ask you because I have immense respect for the way you present your view. 

I thank you for speaking with such respect.  It is so refreshing to hear from good people in the world.

I’m still a believer, I’m just not a Christian one, and I don’t really know what I actually believe.  Not that is a bad thing, I like the place I’m in because I feel free of fear to some degree when it comes to God, or spiritual things.

Anyway, the time I was a Christian, I did believe in the trinity and the Bible being the word of God.

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jmccr8
12 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Thinking about it, I don’t really see why God would need to be worshiped as people believe.  I just think a true being of such great potential would not need or want to be worshiped.  I’m sure that if God exists, there was a good reason of some sort for us to be here....but worship wouldn’t be it.....IMO.

Hi Gyver

We have potential if god is all that he/her/it can be then it has no potential left as all is realized and nothing more can be potential for it. If I was a god I would give them the tools and ability to use them to their best potential by being a physical influence on their lives instead of leaving them flounder. That is why I am inclined to think that god is intelligence and the ability to manipulate ourselves and our environment by realizing potential nothing supernatural.

jmccr8

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Hammerclaw
11 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Thinking about it, I don’t really see why God would need to be worshiped as people believe.  I just think a true being of such great potential would not need or want to be worshiped.  I’m sure that if God exists, there was a good reason of some sort for us to be here....but worship wouldn’t be it.....IMO.

Gods were great powers one placated and pleaded with for blessings in one's life. That's what propitiation and burnt offerings are about. Gods were gods of the living, even the god(s) of the Hebrews. The god the Christians raised up is a very different fish. He is the god of eternal life, resurrection and rebirth. The god of the here and the hereafter.

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Guyver
1 minute ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Gyver

We have potential if god is all that he/her/it can be then it has no potential left as all is realized and nothing more can be potential for it. If I was a god I would give them the tools and ability to use them to their best potential by being a physical influence on their lives instead of leaving them flounder. That is why I am inclined to think that god is intelligence and the ability to manipulate ourselves and our environment by realizing potential nothing supernatural.

jmccr8

Very interesting.  I like what you’re saying.

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Guyver
2 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Gods were great powers one placated and pleaded with for blessings in one's life. That's what propitiation and burnt offerings are about. Gods were gods of the living, even the god(s) of the Hebrews. The god the Christians raised up is a very different fish. He is the god of eternal life, resurrection and rebirth. The god of the here and the hereafter.

I get it, but so were  other gods.  The gods of the Egyptians, for instance.  I just think it’s a way of expressing what most of us probably hope for down deep, that there is a better place than this for people.  Heaven if you will.

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jmccr8
1 minute ago, Guyver said:

I get it, but so were  other gods.  The gods of the Egyptians, for instance.  I just think it’s a way of expressing what most of us probably hope for down deep, that there is a better place than this for people.  Heaven if you will.

Hi Gyver

Well, if I was in heaven I would be expecting certain amounts of confusion and mayhem or things just wouldn't feel like home, rather boring actually what with harps and harems and no Tupac.:lol:

jmccr8

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Hammerclaw
5 minutes ago, Guyver said:

I get it, but so were  other gods.  The gods of the Egyptians, for instance.  I just think it’s a way of expressing what most of us probably hope for down deep, that there is a better place than this for people.  Heaven if you will.

Actually, the afterlife in most religions are dreary places; very few people looked forward to that "undiscovered country". That was and is Christianity's great hook. "For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever beiieveth in him should not perish but have everlasting life" With Christianity, being dead never looked so good.

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