Aquila King Posted November 9, 2019 #3451 Share Posted November 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said: Both. I have a preference, I feel it, I acknowledge it. Maybe you're just bi? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan max2 Posted November 9, 2019 #3452 Share Posted November 9, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Aquila King said: Ikr. We tell trans people they are freaks and "living a lie". And then when they get depressed from society hating them they act like its "proof" that being trans is the problem and not society's hatred of them. Like wtf kind of logic is that. Edited November 9, 2019 by spartan max2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Horse Posted November 9, 2019 #3453 Share Posted November 9, 2019 9 minutes ago, spartan max2 said: Can you quote to me where this article claims what you think it claims? OK, The first sentence. "The study of the causes of transsexuality investigates gender identity formation of transgender people, …………" The word identity is about the 10th word in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan max2 Posted November 9, 2019 #3454 Share Posted November 9, 2019 Just now, Crazy Horse said: OK, The first sentence. "The study of the causes of transsexuality investigates gender identity formation of transgender people, …………" The word identity is about the 10th word in. Oh my gosh. Idk where to start here lol. First, that quote is not making the claim that transgender is a subjective thing. That just using terminology to study it. Second, you must of stopped at the first couple sentences. The rest of the article goes on to show the evidence for biology being the prime factor. Some pretty strong evidence. Read it lol 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Horse Posted November 9, 2019 #3455 Share Posted November 9, 2019 1 minute ago, spartan max2 said: Ikr. We tell people trans people they are freaks and "living a lie". And then when they get depressed from society hating them they act like its "proof" that being trans the problem and not society's hatred of them. Like wtf kind of logic is that. Personally, I have never called a person who believes they are transgender a freak, so bringing-up such a thing now can only look poor on your part. Anybody, not just with this issue, but anybody who pushes a lie is part of the problem, because without the truth we are all screwed. The truth is difficult enough to ascertain without this constant lying everywhere. I have never expressed any hatred towards those poor, misguided souls, nor any hatred to those promoting this stuff, just a reasonable discussion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted November 9, 2019 #3456 Share Posted November 9, 2019 7 minutes ago, spartan max2 said: Ikr. We tell trans people they are freaks and "living a lie". And then when they get depressed from society hating them they act like its "proof" that being trans the problem and not society's hatred of them. Like wtf kind of logic is that. What I don't understand is why it matters. Even if it hypothetically were a preference, why do people care? They aren't hurting anyone else by doing it. It's just a fact though that it isn't a choice, and forcing them to conform to some arbitrary standard of "male" or "female" is psychologically damaging to them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan max2 Posted November 9, 2019 #3457 Share Posted November 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Crazy Horse said: Personally, I have never called a person who believes they are transgender a freak, so bringing-up such a thing now can only look poor on your part. Anybody, not just with this issue, but anybody who pushes a lie is part of the problem, because without the truth we are all screwed. The truth is difficult enough to ascertain without this constant lying everywhere. I have never expressed any hatred towards those poor, misguided souls, nor any hatred to those promoting this stuff, just a reasonable discussion... If a trans person is reading your post then they see a person saying that what they feel on the inside (and have no control over) is a lie. You might not overtly say things to trans people and you probably don't even mean to hurt them. But these type of beliefs you argue do. Someone being told by society all the time that they are unnatural is harmful. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted November 9, 2019 #3458 Share Posted November 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said: Anybody, not just with this issue, but anybody who pushes a lie is part of the problem Then stop being a part of problem. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted November 9, 2019 #3459 Share Posted November 9, 2019 Imagine saying to someone: "Dying your hair blonde is unnatural. You were born brunette and therefore should be brunette. Stop living a lie!" The insane person isn't the ne dying their hair, it's the person trying to force them keep their hair color something they don't want. Like, who cares? It's basically the same thing with trans people here (only obviously more difficult for the trans person). They don't feel like the body they have is who they are, so they want to change it. Who the F are you to tell them otherwise? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Horse Posted November 9, 2019 #3460 Share Posted November 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, spartan max2 said: Oh my gosh. Idk where to start here lol. First, that quote is not making the claim that transgender is a subjective thing. That just using terminology to study it. Second, you must of stopped at the first couple sentences. The rest of the article goes on to show the evidence for biology being the prime factor. Some pretty strong evidence. Read it lol I tried to read it, but I'm not so smart, perhaps you could cut out the complicated stuff, and just give me the over-all jist? That's if you actually understand it yourself? Tell me in your own words, using your own experiences, how a subjective opinion gets turned into scientific fact? Because that's all I want to know! A man who truly believes he is a woman, is still a man, and no matter how many hormones or surgeries he has, he is still a man. And whilst you are at it, please tell me how this person is ever going to find an inner peace and a true and lasting happiness whilst living a lie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Horse Posted November 9, 2019 #3461 Share Posted November 9, 2019 11 minutes ago, spartan max2 said: If a trans person is reading your post then they see a person saying that what they feel on the inside (and have no control over) is a lie. You might not overtly say things to trans people and you probably don't even mean to hurt them. But these type of beliefs you argue do. Someone being told by society all the time that they are unnatural is harmful. The feeling is real, the science projected onto that feeling is a lie. Please try to see the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan max2 Posted November 9, 2019 #3462 Share Posted November 9, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said: I tried to read it, but I'm not so smart, perhaps you could cut out the complicated stuff, and just give me the over-all jist? That's if you actually understand it yourself? Tell me in your own words, using your own experiences, how a subjective opinion gets turned into scientific fact? Because that's all I want to know! A man who truly believes he is a woman, is still a man, and no matter how many hormones or surgeries he has, he is still a man. And whilst you are at it, please tell me how this person is ever going to find an inner peace and a true and lasting happiness whilst living a lie? To cut out the complicated words. The link shows studies that found trans women (aka men who feel like they are women) have different brain features that actually mirror women brains more then men. As in they have male bodies but their brains do look female, hence why they probably feel female. And vise versa. It also shows twin studies that suggest a genetic component. Aka research suggest that it is indeed biological and not a choice (suprise) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality Though like Aquila said it shouldn't matter if it's a choice or not. Edited November 9, 2019 by spartan max2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted November 9, 2019 #3463 Share Posted November 9, 2019 7 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said: The feeling is real, the science projected onto that feeling is a lie. Please try to see the difference. I just wish more than anything that I could know whether or not you genuinely comprehend the profound psychological damage your rhetoric causes to trans people. I can't tell whether you're genuinely that deluded, or whether you're just spouting this off as some sort of negative resentment you have towards trans people... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Horse Posted November 10, 2019 #3464 Share Posted November 10, 2019 20 minutes ago, Aquila King said: I just wish more than anything that I could know whether or not you genuinely comprehend the profound psychological damage your rhetoric causes to trans people. I can't tell whether you're genuinely that deluded, or whether you're just spouting this off as some sort of negative resentment you have towards trans people... It is your wilful ignorance that is causing all the damage. Transgenderism is a subjective opinion, not a scientific fact! Good night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan max2 Posted November 10, 2019 #3465 Share Posted November 10, 2019 1 hour ago, spartan max2 said: To cut out the complicated words. The link shows studies that found trans women (aka men who feel like they are women) have different brain features that actually mirror women brains more then men. As in they have male bodies but their brains do look female, hence why they probably feel female. And vise versa. It also shows twin studies that suggest a genetic component. Aka research suggest that it is indeed biological and not a choice (suprise) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality Though like Aquila said it shouldn't matter if it's a choice or not. I'll leave this for when you get back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted November 10, 2019 #3466 Share Posted November 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, spartan max2 said: I'll leave this for when you get back Instead of linking to wikipedia...how about linking to the actual brain studies....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted November 10, 2019 #3467 Share Posted November 10, 2019 I mean...yes it is a foot note in the article but did you read the footnote? Nevermind...sheesh... Evidence supporting the biologic nature of gender identity. Saraswat A1, Weinand JD2, Safer JD3. Author information Abstract OBJECTIVE: To review current literature that supports a biologic basis of gender identity. METHODS: A traditional literature review. RESULTS: Evidence that there is a biologic basis for gender identity primarily involves (1) data on gender identity in patients with disorders of sex development (DSDs, also known as differences of sex development) along with (2) neuroanatomical differences associated with gender identity. CONCLUSIONS: Although the mechanisms remain to be determined, there is strong support in the literature for a biologic basis of gender identity. Basiclally...they read stuff other people wrote and agreed with it....hardly...evidence.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted November 10, 2019 #3468 Share Posted November 10, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, spartan max2 said: Ikr. We tell trans people they are freaks and "living a lie". And then when they get depressed from society hating them they act like its "proof" that being trans is the problem and not society's hatred of them. Like wtf kind of logic is that. who exactly are...we...? And how do you know that they are depressed from society hating them? Is society we? It is a collective ...we...but come on man...generalities and drawing conclusions from generalities is quite lame as far as ...science...goes. How do you know they are not depressed from their own psychological problems? Edited November 10, 2019 by joc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted November 10, 2019 #3469 Share Posted November 10, 2019 29 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said: It is your wilful ignorance that is causing all the damage. Transgenderism is a subjective opinion, not a scientific fact! Good night. Just saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it true. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan max2 Posted November 10, 2019 #3470 Share Posted November 10, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, joc said: Instead of linking to wikipedia...how about linking to the actual brain studies....? I didn't original post the wiki article. I was explaining to Crazy what the wiki article was claiming because he had it backwards. Netherless, A quick Google to find more detail on the study https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm Wiki is good for summarizing a large amount of information. You have to Google specific studies when interested. Quote In this study, Dr. Julie Bakker from the University of Liège, Belgium, and her colleagues from the Center of Expertise on Gender Dysphoria at the VU University Medical Center, the Netherlands, examined sex differences in the brain activation patterns of young transgender people. The study included both adolescent boys and girls with gender dysphoria and used magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans to assess brain activation patterns in response to a pheromone known to produce gender-specific activity. The pattern of brain activation in both transgender adolescent boys and girls more closely resembled that of non-transgender boys and girls of their desired gender. In addition, GD adolescent girls showed a male-typical brain activation pattern during a visual/spatial memory exercise. Finally, some brain structural changes were detected that were also more similar, but not identical, to those typical of the desired gender of GD boys and girls. Edited November 10, 2019 by spartan max2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted November 10, 2019 #3471 Share Posted November 10, 2019 1 minute ago, spartan max2 said: I didn't original post the wiki article. I was explaining to Crazy what the wiki article was claiming because he had it backwards. Netherless, A quick Google to find more detail on the study https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm Wiki is good for summarizing a large amount of information. You have to Google specific studies when interested. I still don't see anyone saying what those 'brain differences' are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan max2 Posted November 10, 2019 #3472 Share Posted November 10, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, joc said: I still don't see anyone saying what those 'brain differences' are. Got to click a few links in the references. The raw science, since you fancy yourself a neurologist lol. Quote Abstract Symposium S30.3 Brain structure and function in gender dysphoria The concept of gender identity is uniquely human. Hence we are left with the phenomenon of men and women suffering from Gender Dysphoria (GD) also known as transsexualism to study the origins of gender identity in humans. It has been hypothesized that atypical levels of sex steroids during a perinatal critical period of neuronal sexual differentiation may be involved in the development of GD. In order to test this hypothesis, we investigated brain structure and function in individuals diagnosed with GD using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). Since GD is often diagnosed in childhood and puberty has been proposed to be an additional organizational period in brain differentiation, we included both prepubertal children and adolescents with GD in our studies. First, we measured brain activation upon exposure to androstadienone, a putative male chemo-signal which evokes sex differences in hypothalamic activation (women > men). We found that hypothalamic responses of both adolescent girls and boys diagnosed with GD were more similar to their experienced gender than their birth sex, which supports the hypothesis of a sex-atypical brain differentiation in these individuals. At the structural level, we analyzed both regional gray matter (GM) volumes and white matter (WM) microstructure using diffusion tensor imaging. In cisgender girls, larger GM volumes were observed in the bilateral superior medial frontal and left pre/postcentral cortex, while cis-gender boys had more volume in the bilateral superior-posterior cerebellum and hypothalamus. Within these regions of interest representing sexually dimorphic brain structures, GM volumes of both GD groups deviated from the volumetric characteristics of their birth sex towards those of individuals sharing their gender identity. Furthermore, we found intermediate patterns in WM microstructure in adolescent boys with GD, but only sex-typical ones in adolescent girls with GD. These results on brain structure are thus partially in line with a sex-atypical differentiation of the brain during early development in individuals with GD, but might also suggest that other mechanisms are involved. Indeed, using resting state MRI, we observed GD-specific functional connectivity in the visual network in adolescent girls with GD. The latter is in support of a more recent hypothesis on alterations in brain networks important for own body perception and self-referential processing in individuals with GD. Edited November 10, 2019 by spartan max2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted November 10, 2019 #3473 Share Posted November 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, spartan max2 said: Got to click a few links in the references. The raw science, since you fancy yourself a neurologist lol. I fancy myself no such thing. I find study of the brain very interesting. Gender Dysphoria and Body Dysmorphic Disorder (Body Dysmorphia) are psychological conditions and terms that are often placed in conjunction with one another; while both are important and hard conditions to deal with, they are very different. The usage of these terms accompanies other errors often in the differentiation between sex and gender. Since these psychological phenomena are so prevalent in literature and the media, in order to understand those with gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia, we must look at the differences between the definitions of the two. Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted November 10, 2019 #3474 Share Posted November 10, 2019 So what exactly does any of this have to do with Atheism is incompatible with Science? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted November 10, 2019 #3475 Share Posted November 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, XenoFish said: So what exactly does any of this have to do with Atheism is incompatible with Science? ...you got me there boss! At least it doesn't have anything to do with Walker or Habitat as far as I can tell.... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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