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Atheism is incompatible with science


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10 hours ago, DieChecker said:

One doesnt need God to have a full life. One needs God for the afterlife. 

In life religion is just another condiment that you can add to your burger. Not necessary, but adds to the experience. 

I kinda disagree. I don't believe in an afterlife but i know that both my sense of spirituality and my connection to god/the cosmic consciousness, drive me to be a better stronger person so that i ca do more to help more people than i could if not driven

Someone said we only have to do good.

But How do we recognise good?

Why do we feel any need to do good? 

Why are we prepared to sacrifice material things to help others and why, for a human, is the spiritual  as essential for psychological well being as the material?  This is not true for any other animal on earth 

It is in answering these questions, and  especially drilling back like a child, and asking,  "Yes, but why?"  at each level that we begin to recognise the spiritual side of a self aware mind such as humans possess. 

 

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3 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

A6JSWYO.gif 

Sorry, but i am too sober to receive that meme :) 

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2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

We do, but it's not a good thing. 

I don't think the more religious people see it as wrong. Walker argues for it! 

What you call indoctrination I call elders imparting learned wisdom to the young. To me its not indoctrination is aculturalisation  All cultures do it. it is a duty of the elder to the young.  

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Just now, Mr Walker said:

Sorry, but i am too sober to receive that meme :) 

Hi Walker

I was sober when I posted it and still am. To me, it represents the mind-blowing confusion of the post that it was a response to.:lol:

jmccr8

 

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2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

I KNOW certain things that explain your strange behaviour and wild claims too. 

I don't strut around saying my everyday experiences are proof either. They are my experiences, my interpretations. They are not defying physics either. 

I think you try to blinker the discussion in an attempt to lend weight to your wild claims. 

And genuine experiences are misinterpreted through one size fits all superstitions. People are too happy to allow ego to provide an answer, rather than educate themselves and investigate. Its self serving and boosts egos. Turning to another for knowledge seems to be abhorrent to some. Look at Habs reaction to Professor Cox and Professor Carrolls statements. His venom tells us all we need to know there. 

Sure it is pal. Sure it is........ 

I bet they all say the same. Even people who think they are Napoleon. 

And some are misinterpretation and some outright lies. There are many explanations. Superstition provides a ready framework to offer anyone an easy way to feel justified in not knowing. 

You cant get past either the total disbelief or the need for personal  comments can you ? 

Ps You cannot know things about me.   IT is physically impossible  Supposing that what write about myself online  is genuine ,you  might logically deduce some things, but no, you cant know, and i cant KNOW anything abut you either.

You could actually be a 3 breasted alien  female,   running a disinformation bot, across multiple websites :) 

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10 hours ago, DieChecker said:

One doesnt need God to have a full life. One needs God for the afterlife. 

You just need a good imagination.

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1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

As you are too thick (deliberately or not I don't know) to understand the argument can you suggest what the mechanism is that you claim comes from religion to extend lifespans. Ate you suggesting it's God's direct influence or something else? 

I suspect bacause they ask valid questions that don't support your claims? 

16 stone is morbidly obese. I can't see you abseiling at that weight. 

And I'm a fit 72 kilos at 52. Looks like I'm winning so far. 

Ive presented the medical reasons why this link exists  You reject them 

 

eg  

A number of studies have shown associations between attending religious services and living a long time. One of the most comprehensive, published in JAMA Internal Medicine in 2016, found that women who went to any kind of religious service more than once a week had a 33% lower chance than their secular peers of dying during the 16-year study-follow-up period. Another study, published last year in PLOS One, found that regular service attendance was linked to reductions in the body’s stress responses and even in mortality–so much so that worshippers were 55% less likely to die during the up to 18-year follow-up period than people who didn’t frequent the temple, church or mosque.

 

Fostering these qualities may even affect rates of chronic disease, says Marino Bruce, a co-author of the PLOS One study and a research associate professor of medicine, health and society at Vanderbilt University. “Having that sense that you’re not in the world alone, that you are part of a power larger than oneself, can give one confidence to deal with the issues of life,” Bruce says. “Biologically, if that reduces stress, then that means you’re less likely to have high blood pressure or diabetes or things that can increase mortality.”

But prayer has been shown to be powerful, in at least one way. It triggers the relaxation response, a state of mind-body rest that has been shown to decrease stress, heart rate and blood pressure; alleviate chronic disease symptoms; and even change gene expression. This state is typically linked to activities like meditation and yoga, and research suggests it can also be found through praying.

 

http://time.com/5159848/do-religious-people-live-longer/

it is a variety of causes Eg heart diseases are much lower in religious people because of lower anxiety, lower blood pressure, and often because of better  diet.

  Pain is reduced because faith affects the area of the brain which generates pain perception  Wounds are healed faster and even cancer has greater remission rates  due to  cellular changes caused by what belief does to the mind body interface 

There is much lower depression especially in the elderly  because religious people have faith, hope  and often a companion watching over them.

  Young religious people drink less, smoke less, do less drugs, and are less promiscuous, creating better health outcomes 

These would all occur if no god existed The y are the result of belief faith and religious attendance on humans, NOT the influence of god  /

As it happens I have the photos of those camps to prove it :) 

Its true i would have been fitter, if not happier, weighing less. But it never stopped me doing things.

The women in my family live to be around 100, the men much less, due mostly to  heart diseases passed down through their genes.My dad died aged 79 on the operating table for a heart operation. Right up until that time he and mum went caravaning  around Australia every year  He continued to work in his  workshop which  contained things like a wood lathe and a metal l lathe  and to do physical things like helping his children with building and restoring machinery, or out on an oyster farm  he was out in the field cataloguing native birds taking photos recording bird calls  and helping write a book on local birds  There is a difference   between fitness and  health  Like me he cpuld do nothing about his heart,  but he kept active until it gave out   

Ive been given another 15 years of good health, and i am going to make the most of it    That will make me about the same age as my father when he died. which I am content with.

we will see who wins the race, by who lives the longest :) 

Ps if you smoke, drink alcohol,  or eat red meat, then the odds are on me  living the longer 

  

Edited by Mr Walker
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1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

As you are too thick (deliberately or not I don't know) to understand the argument can you suggest what the mechanism is that you claim comes from religion to extend lifespans. Ate you suggesting it's God's direct influence or something else? 

I suspect bacause they ask valid questions that don't support your claims? 

16 stone is morbidly obese. I can't see you abseiling at that weight. 

And I'm a fit 72 kilos at 52. Looks like I'm winning so far. 

Ps 

No  to the bolded bit 

I could just as easily lie and you  would never know the difference.  I did give a bit more info,  but i  see no need to respond  to what are basically personal  criticisms

 

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25 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

I was sober when I posted it and still am. To me, it represents the mind-blowing confusion of the post that it was a response to.:lol:

jmccr8

 

Would you mind pointing out one thing you found illogical, untrue, or hard to follow?

I have copied my post below 

Doesn't  matter what you THINK.

I KNOW :) 

i find it hard to believe that you do not accept your everyday experiences as real, unless the y can be verified by another, and unless you  have transferable proofs that the y are true  Most of us are capable of knowing what is real , by using the evidences for reality . 

I think you ONLY use this standard to apply to other people and experiences you BELIEVE are impossible 

I agree that superstition is not the answer.  Dealing with reality is required  And yes it can be difficult to achieve an objective perspective, but not too difficult  I also agree that there is no one size or one right answer. Such experiences come in many forms. Some are imagined, some are perceived, yet some are genuine.

Just because the entity i encounter is real, doesn't mean everyone's is.

 And vice versa; just because one person is deluded, doesn't mean  that all encounters are the result  of delusion  

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24 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Ive presented the medical reasons why this link exists  You reject them 

 

eg  

A number of studies have shown associations between attending religious services and living a long time. One of the most comprehensive, published in JAMA Internal Medicine in 2016, found that women who went to any kind of religious service more than once a week had a 33% lower chance than their secular peers of dying during the 16-year study-follow-up period. Another study, published last year in PLOS One, found that regular service attendance was linked to reductions in the body’s stress responses and even in mortality–so much so that worshippers were 55% less likely to die during the up to 18-year follow-up period than people who didn’t frequent the temple, church or mosque.

 

Fostering these qualities may even affect rates of chronic disease, says Marino Bruce, a co-author of the PLOS One study and a research associate professor of medicine, health and society at Vanderbilt University. “Having that sense that you’re not in the world alone, that you are part of a power larger than oneself, can give one confidence to deal with the issues of life,” Bruce says. “Biologically, if that reduces stress, then that means you’re less likely to have high blood pressure or diabetes or things that can increase mortality.”

But prayer has been shown to be powerful, in at least one way. It triggers the relaxation response, a state of mind-body rest that has been shown to decrease stress, heart rate and blood pressure; alleviate chronic disease symptoms; and even change gene expression. This state is typically linked to activities like meditation and yoga, and research suggests it can also be found through praying.

 

http://time.com/5159848/do-religious-people-live-longer/

it is a variety of causes Eg heart diseases are much lower in religious people because of lower anxiety, lower blood pressure, and often because of better  diet.

  Pain is reduced because faith affects the area of the brain which generates pain perception  Wounds are healed faster and even cancer has greater remission rates  due to  cellular changes caused by what belief does to the mind body interface 

There is much lower depression especially in the elderly  because religious people have faith, hope  and often a companion watching over them.

  Young religious people drink less, smoke less, do less drugs, and are less promiscuous, creating better health outcomes 

These would all occur if no god existed The y are the result of belief faith and religious attendance on humans, NOT the influence of god  /

As it happens I have the photos of those camps to prove it :) 

Its true i would have been fitter, if not happier, weighing less. But it never stopped me doing things.

The women in my family live to be around 100, the men much less, due mostly to  heart diseases passed down through their genes.My dad died aged 79 on the operating table for a heart operation. Right up until that time he and mum went caravaning  around Australia every year  He continued to work in his  workshop which  contained things like a wood lathe and a metal l lathe  and to do physical things like helping his children with building and restoring machinery, or out on an oyster farm  he was out in the field cataloguing native birds taking photos recording bird calls  and helping write a book on local birds  There is a difference   between fitness and  health  Like me he cpuld do nothing about his heart,  but he kept active until it gave out   

Ive been given another 15 years of good health, and i am going to make the most of it    That will make me about the same age as my father when he died. which I am content with.

we will see who wins the race, by who lives the longest :) 

Ps if you smoke, drink alcohol,  or eat red meat, then the odds are on me  living the longer 

  

Must I post a link to a meta-analysis of these studies that state it's BS, again? 

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16 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Must I post a link to a meta-analysis of these studies that state it's BS, again? 

I suspect you just may have to do exactly that :)

 

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16 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I suspect you just may have to do exactly that :)

 

Considering it was completely ignored initially, I really couldn't be arsed. If people want to live in ignorance so be it. 

But if anyone is actually interested I'll repost it.

"Of the 266 articles published in the year 2000 and identified by the Medline search, only 17% were relevant to claims of health benefits associated with religious involvement. About half of the articles cited in the comprehensive reviews were irrelevant to these claims. Of those that actually were relevant, many either had significant methodological flaws or were misrepresented, leaving only a few articles that could truly be described as demonstrating beneficial effects of religious involvement. We conclude that there is little empirical basis for assertions that religious involvement or activity is associated with beneficial health outcomes."

https://academic.oup.com/abm/article-abstract/24/1/14/4631506?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Apologies @psyche101 you actully posted this first.

Edited by danydandan
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I reckon people who read these posts about the health benefits from religion are at risk of dying from boredom.

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Maybe religious people live longer because god isn't too keen on taking them back ? 

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14 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Maybe religious people live longer because god isn't too keen on taking them back ? 

Ha. God hates Religious people.

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9 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Those who devote this life to preparing for another are losing out I feel. There's just no good reason to consider that afterlife. May I ask what is your opinion on the physics that refute the life after death idea? 

Meh... a couple hours a week to go sing and listen to someone talk about the Bible? I got time for that.... Especially if the afterlife is real, and Christianity is correct. Then it is a small price to pay.

The physics that refutes life after death? Can't say that I'd even care... If I buy into that, and attack it back, that's just me feeling attacked and reacting. When if you have Faith, there's no reason to even consider that an attack. It's someone trying to tell you the color of the apple matters, when you're going to peel it and smash it down anyway. 

Quote

If it works for one, I'm sure that can be the case, it doesn't always work like that though. 

Some people don't like Ketchup....

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9 hours ago, psyche101 said:

We do, but it's not a good thing. 

I'd agree. Ignorance is never a good thing... except if the end of the world is coming. In which case, it would be nice to just experience the fireball without worrying about it ahead of time.

Quote

I don't think the more religious people see it as wrong. Walker argues for it! 

I don't buy into indoctrinating people. Not even kids. I'd say live your life as an example, and if people admire you, and ask you about it, then tell them you live that way because of XYZ belief/religion.

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10 hours ago, psyche101 said:

I don't agree. I can create smaller experiments and do the calcs when need be, predictability and repetition upon demand is past belief. 

If you are trying to disprove God, then you're still trying to prove a negative. Which is impossible. So the best you can do is come to a conclusion and base your opinion on that.

Quote

They are not though, if their claims are valid, they would be facts. Quite plainly fringe view rely upon anecdotes just like any superstition. 

But they use actual facts to support their faulty conclusions. The evidence they use is (mostly) solid. It is just that they cherry pick what facts to use, and how to present them. The fact 99.99% of everyone else comes to a different conclusion does not in any way prove their evidence is false.

Quote

There is always a point where the two clash. Its inevitable. 

Possibly. But, only due to Human nature. Just like science and politics clash. And politics and education. Can you have Science outside of Politics? Yes you can. We don't have to have Science dictated from a politician, do we? But do some politicians believe they HAVE to try to change science? Yeah. Because... Human Nature.

Quote

JWs allow kids to die to preserve their relationship with their God. It's really a milder form of that. Belief empowers fundamental worshipers, 

The JW I think only disallow Blood Transfusion. The number of people who likely die due to that ban is probably pretty low. Not that I agree with them on that point, but they are more Fanatical/Fundamentalist in several other ways. Namely going door-to-door and handing out literature. :P

Quote

Great that your kids are doing so well, you must be proud. 

I do see it here often though. Habitat is probably the most prominent example. Should any science challenge the superstitions he has chosen to explain unusual happenstance he starts with ad homs on the presenting poster, the noted scientist and the science involved. Will too, painting any non believer as a hater. But I'd say your right. Their own doubts are the most likely fuel for such irrational behaviour. 

Yes, proud of them....

Using the Ad Homin method is basically a last resort, IMHO.

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5 hours ago, danydandan said:

Ha. God hates Religious people.

According to some, God hates us all. Hell, I've taken the Lord's name in vain, and fooled around as a young single guy, and disrespected my Dad a time or two. Guess I'm going to Hell too?? 

And there's that guy I shot in Reno, just to watch him die....

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7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Ive presented the medical reasons why this link exists  You reject them 

You can lead a horse to water.....

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7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I kinda disagree. I don't believe in an afterlife but i know that both my sense of spirituality and my connection to god/the cosmic consciousness, drive me to be a better stronger person so that i ca do more to help more people than i could if not driven

Someone said we only have to do good.

But How do we recognise good?

Why do we feel any need to do good? 

Why are we prepared to sacrifice material things to help others and why, for a human, is the spiritual  as essential for psychological well being as the material?  This is not true for any other animal on earth 

It is in answering these questions, and  especially drilling back like a child, and asking,  "Yes, but why?"  at each level that we begin to recognise the spiritual side of a self aware mind such as humans possess. 

 

What is "Good"? That is a good question. 

In Christianity, it is spelled out in some direct, and some subtle, ways. I'd point directly at Jesus as the model. But, it is not as simple as that, because Jesus wasn't recorded doing everything that a modern person would/could. Would Jesus eat fast food? Would Jesus wear flashy clothes? Would Jesus listen to Gangster Rap? Would Jesus own a gun? Not easy questions to answer.... 

Many Humanists believe that "Good" is what society says it is. However since we all live here on Earth, and any one of us can travel to the other side of the world in a day or so... Our cultures/societies get mixe. And now that we have to be tolerant of other's cultures, and not require them to assimilate... The "Good" of the collective society isn't as simple and straight forward as it was. An example would be that a Muslim might see nothing wrong with, might even cheer, a revenge killing. 

I'm going to stick with the time tested definition of Good myself.

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27 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

You can lead a horse to water.....

... but you can't fool it into thinking it's actually drinking wine.

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3 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I'd agree. Ignorance is never a good thing... except if the end of the world is coming. In which case, it would be nice to just experience the fireball without worrying about it ahead of time.

I don't buy into indoctrinating people. Not even kids. I'd say live your life as an example, and if people admire you, and ask you about it, then tell them you live that way because of XYZ belief/religion.

Hello Diechecker,

when raising children is there not a form of indoctrination happening on some level? After all, is it not the parents job to teach the child about life? And are not the parents going to do this through their belief system, whatever it is? 

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10 minutes ago, Ogbin said:

Hello Diechecker,

when raising children is there not a form of indoctrination happening on some level? After all, is it not the parents job to teach the child about life? And are not the parents going to do this through their belief system, whatever it is? 

I believe there is. All indoctrination is, is imposing a believe or habit or whatever without that person being able to think critically about the topic or whatever.

Best example is the Catholic baptism.

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I agree.  In order to be an atheist, one must be either willfully blind or stupid.

Edited by Lord Harry
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